What's difference between Party and Country? Good question.

Discussion in 'China' started by kickok1975, Feb 22, 2011.

  1. kickok1975

    kickok1975 Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    [​IMG]


    Beijing's Communist Youth League declared from next month, all primary school and middle school in Beijing need do a salutary ceremony to Party's flag after national flag for at least every first week of month. This decision is so controversy that a lot of people question the true intention of it.

    It is obliviously that Chinese government wants to educate student that country and party is same thing, or at least the concept that without the party, country is in big trouble. They take effort to enforce this idea even to student as young as these pupils.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2011
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  3. kickok1975

    kickok1975 Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    It says, party! the great, glorious and always right party

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2011
  4. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    In Communist countries, the Party symbolises the country.

    And that their Leader is Infallible as the Pope!
     
  5. kickok1975

    kickok1975 Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    These poor kids. Why do they have to endure such education when they are still so young?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2011
  6. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    In English, there is a saying 'catch them young'.

    It means it is easier to mould young people than the older chaps.
     
  7. kickok1975

    kickok1975 Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    That's how we have so many people can't tell the difference between government and country. And it will scare shit out of it since anything bad happen to party could lead to country's collapse.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2011
  8. amoy

    amoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    I vow to thee, my country, all earthly things above,
    Entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love;
    The love that asks no question, the love that stands the test,
    That lays upon the altar the dearest and the best;
    The love that never falters, the love that pays the price,
    The love that makes undaunted the final sacrifice.
     
  9. kickok1975

    kickok1975 Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    I was once like them with three bars on my arm. That glorious time
     
  10. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    It is this unquestioned authority that sends a country down the drain. Remember, power corrupts with time and absolute power corrupts absolutely. There is nothing wrong with believing in Communism, but it is, IMHO, a very bad idea not to have the following:
    • Freedom of Press and Speech
    • Opposition Party
     
  11. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    The aim is the same.

    This is the Nazi Anthem.


    Lyrics to Das Lied Der Deutschen :
    Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
    Ãœber alles in der Welt,
    Wenn es stets zum Schutz und Trutze
    Brüderlich zusammenhält;
    Von der Maas bis an die Memel,
    Von der Etsch bis an den Belt:
    Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
    Ãœber alles in der Welt!
    Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
    Ãœber alles in der Welt.

    Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
    Deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang
    Sollen in der Welt behalten
    Ihren alten, schönen Klang,
    Uns zu edler Tat begeistern
    Unser ganzes Leben lang:
    Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
    Deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang!
    Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
    Deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang!

    Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
    Für das deutsche Vaterland!
    Danach laßt uns alle streben
    Brüderlich mit Herz und Hand!
    Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
    Sind des Glückes Unterpfand:
    Blüh' im Glanze dieses Glückes,
    Blühe, deutsches Vaterland!
    Blüh' im Glanze dieses Glückes,
    Blühe, deutsches Vaterland!
    Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
    Ãœber alles in der Welt,
    Wenn es stets zum Schutz und Trutze
    Brüderlich zusammenhält;
    Von der Maas bis an die Memel,
    Von der Etsch bis an den Belt:
    Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
    Ãœber alles in der Welt!
    Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
    Ãœber alles in der Welt.

    Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
    Deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang
    Sollen in der Welt behalten
    Ihren alten, schönen Klang,
    Uns zu edler Tat begeistern
    Unser ganzes Leben lang:
    Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
    Deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang!
    Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
    Deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang!

    Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
    Für das deutsche Vaterland!
    Danach laßt uns alle streben
    Brüderlich mit Herz und Hand!
    Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
    Sind des Glückes Unterpfand:
    Blüh' im Glanze dieses Glückes,
    Blühe, deutsches Vaterland!
    Blüh' im Glanze dieses Glückes,
    Blühe, deutsches Vaterland!

    Loose Translation

    Germany, Germany above all,
    above anything in the world,
    when always for protection
    we stand together as brothers.
    from the Meuse river (west of Germany) to the Nemen river (east of Poland),
    from the Adige river (Italian border) to the Belt (the sea near Denmark).
    |: Germany, Germany above all,
    above anything in the world. :|

    German women, German faithfulness,
    German wine and German songs
    should continue to get approval
    all over the world,
    and help us to do great work
    all our life.
    |: German women, German faithfulness,
    German wine and German songs! :|

    Unity and justice and freedom
    for the german fatherland ;
    Let us all find these
    as brothers, with heart and hand.
    Unity and justice and freedom
    are the way to happiness.
    |: Do well in this wish,
    Do well, German fatherland. :|

    Music
    http://german.about.com/library/media/sound/deutlmidi.mid
     
  12. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    well,
    what a self-given enlightenment educator you are!

    you are playing a role of DongLin clique(东林党人) during the rule of Emperor Chongzhen ,who were very good at ideology in-fighting and empty talk,but knew nothing how to rule the country.
    I just ask you 3 questions:
    1. can you prove us that the new CHinese ruler could develope economy better than CCP,were CCP to be outthrown?
    2. can you assure us that the new Chinese ruler would not be as corrupted as India's Congress and BJP,were CCP to be outthrown?
    3. it is the most important. can you assure that Gangdom would not control the grassroot election and local politics,just like the Philippines and Mexico?
    When I studied for maste degree several years ago, I investigated the village election in Guangdong myself. To you surprise, quite a lots of village elections didn't bing "democracy" to villagers as you naive imagintion,but provide one way for local gang mafias to get open political power.



    guy,

    To solve the problems in CHina is one system engineering.

    It is quite naive to believe that all problems in China can be solve by one or two political campaigns or revolutions once for all.

    the problem in China have to be solve by hard work, artful balance and tough control just like surgical operations one by one. Just as Confucious said, Ruling a large state should be as cautious as cooking shrimp(治大国如亨小虾).
    however, when China is experciencing radical industrialzation and restorm of social structure, "democray" can not finish such "hard work, artful balance and tough control just like surgical operations one by one"!



    any shock therapy such as "domocracy" you advocated would just bring disorder,blood ,decline, or even collapse of the state.


    The future of CCP has nothing to do with me, but the future of China is qutie important to me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2011
  13. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    You did not ask me, but I will answer nonetheless.

    Very hypothetical. Can you prove that the new ruler will be worse than the current regime in PRC?

    How did you assume that CCP is not more corrupt than Congress or BJP? You don't even have a free press in PRC to come up with an unverified premise like that.

    What about gangdom of the regime that can run tanks over protesting students (Tienanmen Square Massacre)? Or is such gangdom acceptable?

    Looking forward to your response.
     
  14. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    kickok, I hope you can rethink your naive ideas.

    Once when I was still one college student, I was more eager for "democracy" and hated CCP more than you now.
    At that time, I also thought that CCP's dictatorship was the root of all evil and unfair in CHina and democray was the best way to solve the problems.

    But several years after I graduated, I gradually got to know how naive I had been .
    Now, I dislike CCP as befoe, but I accept that democracy is not fit for CHina and powerful authoritive rule is necessary for China for being at least!


    And you, kickok,are still as naive as I was before!
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2011
  15. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    ^^ @badguy2000

    Buddy, it wasn't kickok1975; it was pmaitra who responded to your questions with his 'naïve' [sic.] ideas.

    You still do not have any response to post #12, do you?
     
  16. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    it is too late. I have to go to sleep.....tomorrow I have to work.....I will reply it tomorrow .
     
  17. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    ^^ Ok np. Looking forward to your response.
     
  18. niharjhatn

    niharjhatn Regular Member

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    Why are you saying this? Are you saying that the Chinese people are incapable of thinking for themselves?

    Global power and prestige and economic growth should not be the main aims of a government! After all, if government is not for the people, who is it for? The 'country'? A patch of land?

    You quickly point out corruption in India and act like the corruption is due to democratic ideals - but it is the person that is corrupt, not the system. There is plenty of corruption in China as well!
     
  19. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Since the Chinese like poetic ways of explaining issues, the attitude resemblance the comfort and security of a caterpillar in a cocoon!

    Just does not want to emerge as a beautiful butterfly to soar the air and sit on the beautiful flowers!

    In totalitarian regimes, the indoctrination is such that one is indebted to the Party for the crumbs they throw around.

    Like the poorhouse of England portrayed in Oliver Twist, where all were gratified by the morsel given and asking for more was blasphemous as Oliver Twitst discovered!
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2011
  20. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    That was an amazing comparison. I like the simile. Very aptly put.

    Also, Charles D!ckens'* David Copperfield gives a nice glimpse of life in England in those days.

    Life in PRC is probably better, but under a different regime, it could be both, better or worse.

    P.S.: Funny that I cannot even write the name of Charles D!ckens, so have to use the exclamation mark.
     
  21. kickok1975

    kickok1975 Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Badguy2000, I know where your points come from. We were told numerous times by our government that China is a special country. China is so special that we can’t follow any other road around world and have to create our own road which will be lead by CCP. And only this road can lead to China’s prosperity.

    I can’t say this theory is totally wrong, it has some merit. I was once a firm believer and even today I still believe some part of it. But as time goes on, I had a second thought and some suspicions.

    It’s the fact that after 1978, CCP government primarily acted as a progressive force that greatly changed China’s landscape. Chinese people’s living standard has reached to a level that never seen in China for last 200 years. Even though we are still pretty poor in absolutely standard, we are getting better and have hope now. That’s the credit I want to give to CCP regardless I like them or not.

    However, from another perspective, I would say the primary force behind such change is that the once extremely tight gripped market force finally gets unleashed. The desire of people to get a better life is so powerful; the role models of those getting rich and successful are so inspiring that people start dreaming things they never imagine before and start doing things they never dare to do before. It also proves that a simple relaxation of control by CCP could have such a profound impact on China

    Chinese people are smart and hard working. Give them soil and water, they can create miracle. We lead the innovation of the world in many centuries. We had many thinkers like Confucius, Sun tzi that changed the world. But look at what we have today. We are called the best copycat in the world. We no longer have any famous thinker but a bunch of money, power worshippers. Our TV, movie are full of crap but rarely has any meaningful education. Our people have no faith and are more selfishness than ever before. The society is stone cold.

    Why these? Because our country is reaching a tipping point where only reform, fundamental reform can lead us to the next level. We already passed the stage of so called “Initial Stage of Socialism”. We are reaching a time when a system of check and balance is badly needed than ever before. The once hard working, clean- hand CCP officials hardly exist anymore; Different levels of governments are in the arm race of GDP and symbolic achievement showcase; Giant state companies, banks and various state agencies are dictating the price, tax and all major resources, while private business are struggling for survive.

    With so many problems looming, the Party needs to do everything they can to correct them. However, so many years have been passed and these problems are not getting better, but worse. It has been proving again and again that Party alone can’t correct these problems. How do you expect a player also act as referee? Chinese people need have a say in country’s affair. But CCP government doesn’t think so, they crack down demonstration, shut down vocal news paper, blockage flow of information, arrest rebels and hide the truth.

    It would be naive if at this time you are still believing the illusion that government can correct itself. Without people’s tight supervision, it will never happen.

    I was once a proud CCP member when I was a college student due to my outstanding performance. Not anymore and just use your word: The future of CCP has nothing to do with me, but the future of China is quite important to me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2011

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