What If Multi-cal Rifle Tender Fails?

[ersakthivel]

Compare performance of Indian-foreign weapon systems: DRDO | idrw.org

 

[Kunal Biswas]

=========
=========

INSAS Excalibur in Service >>

 

[arnabmit]

[tweet]525653739164545024[/tweet]
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/525653739164545024

Nice to INSAS Excalibur in the the above pictures. Has it really been inducted and in operational service with armed forces??

 

[Kunal Biswas]

All Foreign Assault Rifle under trial failed under Indian conditions.

The Indian Army began the final round of confirmatory trials in support of its requirement for 44,618 close quarter battle (CQB) 5.56 mm carbines and 33.6 million rounds of ammunition on 9 June, defence industry officials told IHS Jane's .

The Beretta ARX-160, Colt M4, and Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) Galil Ace carbines will undergo a series of tests at army establishments and weapon-testing facilities until the end of July. These include weapon sights, furniture, and ammunition trials.

The competing guns will also undergo a "mud test" to gauge their ability to operate in poor conditions, an evaluation all three failed during trials in 2012 in the Rajasthan desert and high-altitude regions.

Source : Indian Army kicks off final carbine trials - IHS Jane's 360

=========
=========

 

[Kunal Biswas]

INDIA LOOKS LIKELY TO SCRAP MULTI-CALIBRE RIFLE CONTEST

India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) is likely to scrap its 2011 tender for 66,000 multi-calibre assault rifles after four overseas vendors failed to meet the Indian Army's qualitative requirements (QRs) in user trials that concluded in October 2014, official sources said.
The Czech Republic's Czeca CZ 805 BREN, Italy's Beretta ARX 160, the Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) ACE 1 (a variant of the company's ACR rifle), and the United States' Colt Combat Rifle (a M16A1 specially configured for the Indian contract) are competing for the INR48.50 billion (USD782.25 million) deal.
The contract cost includes reflex, day- and night-sights, and laser designators.

http://www.janes.com/article/51815/india-looks-likely-to-scrap-multi-calibre-rifle-contest

==================

@sayareakd Sir ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Old Interview with Gen VK Singh Sir ..

 

[Shaitan]

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...o-dalbir-singh-indian-army-arde/1/449238.html

The Indian Army has decided to go for an indigenous assault rifle to replace the problematic INSAS rifles. The decision that could save thousands of crores in foreign exchange and boost local manufacture was taken recently by Army Chief General Dalbir Singh. The Army then cancelled a problematic Rs 4,848 crore order for importing Multi Caliber Assault Rifles on June 15-first reported by Mail Today on July 1.

"We are going in for a designed and Made in India rifle in keeping with the government's indigenisation thrusts," senior Army sources told Mail Today.

New features

The Excalibur is an improved version of the INSAS rifle and fires 5.56x45 mm ammunition. It has full-automatic capability over the INSAS which can only fire a three-round burst. The Excalibur barrel is shorter by 4 mm, has a side folding butt stock and features a Picatinny rail, a universal mount that allows a range of weapon sights and sensors to be fitted on the rifle.

DRDO officials say it will take the OFB's Rifle Factory Ishapore at least eight months to incorporate design changes suggested by the ARDE and field the first prototypes of what they are calling the 'Modified INSAS Rifle' (MIR). Changes suggested after trials include a smaller handguard and improved polycarbonate magazine.

If the Excalibur/MIR clears trials, it could be in the hands of infantry soldiers within two years, DRDO officials say. The DRDO is designing a second version of the Excalibur, the AR-2 that fires 7.62x39 mm rounds used by AK-47. The AR-2 will be offered as an alternative to the Russianorigin assault rifle.

The Army's 2011 tender was for a Multi Caliber Assault Rifle or for a weapon that could fire INSAS and AK-47 ammunition with a barrel change.

Five international firms - Beretta of Italy, Israeli Weapons Industries (IWI), Colt Defense of the US, Ceska Zbplojovka of Czech Republic and SiG Sauer of Switzerland-were shortlisted for the trials.

However, Army officials now admit the specifications were poorly drafted and unrealistic.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...o-dalbir-singh-indian-army-arde/1/449238.html

 

[akshay m]

Army zeroes in on Made in India rifles to replace INSAS
The performance of the DRDO-designed 'Excalibur' assault rifle in trials last month at the Armament Research and Development Establishment in Pune has further enthused the Army.

The Indian Army has decided to go for an indigenous assault rifle to replace the problematic INSAS rifles. The decision that could save thousands of crores in foreign exchange and boost local manufacture was taken recently by Army Chief General Dalbir Singh. The Army then cancelled a problematic Rs 4,848 crore order for importing Multi Caliber Assault Rifles on June 15-first reported by Mail Today on July 1.

"We are going in for a designed and Made in India rifle in keeping with the government's indigenisation thrusts," senior Army sources told Mail Today.

The performance of the DRDO-designed 'Excalibur' assault rifle in trials last month at the Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) in Pune has further enthused the Army. The Excalibur had only two stoppages (where the bullet gets stuck in the breech) after 24,000 rounds were fired, close to the Army's specifications of only one stoppage.




New features

The Excalibur is an improved version of the INSAS rifle and fires 5.56x45 mm ammunition. It has full-automatic capability over the INSAS which can only fire a three-round burst. The Excalibur barrel is shorter by 4 mm, has a side folding butt stock and features a Picatinny rail, a universal mount that allows a range of weapon sights and sensors to be fitted on the rifle.

DRDO officials say it will take the OFB's Rifle Factory Ishapore at least eight months to incorporate design changes suggested by the ARDE and field the first prototypes of what they are calling the 'Modified INSAS Rifle' (MIR). Changes suggested after trials include a smaller handguard and improved polycarbonate magazine.

If the Excalibur/MIR clears trials, it could be in the hands of infantry soldiers within two years, DRDO officials say. The DRDO is designing a second version of the Excalibur, the AR-2 that fires 7.62x39 mm rounds used by AK-47. The AR-2 will be offered as an alternative to the Russianorigin assault rifle.

The Army's 2011 tender was for a Multi Caliber Assault Rifle or for a weapon that could fire INSAS and AK-47 ammunition with a barrel change.

Five international firms - Beretta of Italy, Israeli Weapons Industries (IWI), Colt Defense of the US, Ceska Zbplojovka of Czech Republic and SiG Sauer of Switzerland-were shortlisted for the trials.

However, Army officials now admit the specifications were poorly drafted and unrealistic.

 

[bengalraider]

Well I'm glad they chose an Indian rifle, tells you a lot about the " make in India" alignment of the new MOD.MICWS can come in later tranches and later mordenizations.

 

[pmaitra]

Good to know that after all the phoren maal have failed trials in Indian conditions, an indigenous weapon has "enthused" the army. The import lobby will not be pleased, but I am pleased. The above report also proves that DRDO has been continuously improving its products, contrary to many false allegations that are being routinely leveled by some self styled "experts."

N.B.: MIR = Modified INSAS Rifle, also dubbed "Excalibur"

A few technicalities:

• The INSAS can fire fully automatic. INSAS comes in two versions: (1) semi-auto-cum-3-round-burst, and (2) semi-auto-cum-3-round-burst-cum-fully-automatic.
• The INSAS round is very powerful due to which it has a flatter trajectory (refer to comments by Gen. V. K. Singh), therefore, a fully automatic option might not be a great idea, as was proven by the semi-auto FN-FAL versus fully-auto FN-FAL in the British-Argentinian War in the Falklands.

I also respect the fact that the army has acknowledged its unrealistic specifications. We all are humans, and we all make mistakes. No one loses respect by acknowledging their mistakes. When mistakes are stubbornly defended, then it is the credibility of that defender that becomes questionable. The easiest thing is to speak the truth.

P.S.: The picture in the post above was scanned by your's truly from RFI calendar several years back.

 

[pmaitra]

So MCIWS is dead? @Shaitan

................................

I dont think so. I view this is as a further block of INSAS getting production till MCIWS is ready.

What I think is, and I could be wrong, that MCIWS is not dead, but will be issued to specific troops, while Excalibur/MIR will be issued to regular troops. My reasons are:

• On close inspection, it is evident that MCIWS is made of cast metal which is machined with higher refinement, and thus, the production process is going to be slow, and also very expensive. Having a multi-calibre capability, it will be mechanically more complicated.
• The INSAS modification (MIR/Excalibur) would still retain a lot of stamped metal parts, which will not only keep the production costs down, but also make the production faster.

 

[blueblood]

What I think is, and I could be wrong, that MCIWS is not dead, but will be issued to specific troops, while Excalibur/MIR will be issued to regular troops. My reasons are:

• On close inspection, it is evident that MCIWS is made of cast metal which is machined with higher refinement, and thus, the production process is going to be slow, and also very expensive. Having a multi-calibre capability, it will be mechanically more complicated.
• The INSAS modification (MIR/Excalibur) would still retain a lot of stamped metal parts, which will not only keep the production costs down, but also make the production faster.

With the kind of money allotted by the army, I don't think that this was ever an issue.

Also moving the production from OFB to private sector is a sure fire way to increase the production and quality control.

I seriously hope that Sandeep is wrong this time because I had high hopes for a multi cal system that will reduce the logistical footprint.

 

[pmaitra]

With the kind of money allotted by the army, I don't think that this was ever an issue.

Also moving the production from OFB to private sector is a sure fire way to increase the production and quality control.

I seriously hope that Sandeep is wrong this time because I had high hopes for a multi cal system that will reduce the logistical footprint.

Money might not be a problem, but production speed is.

The private sector is already involved in defence production with larger systems, however, I don't know whether the MoD will trust the private sector with small arms production, because, there is always a risk of pilferage. We have had plenty of cases where explosives meant for the mining industries have been sold off (due to corruption) which ended up in the hands of Maoists, who then used these explosives to blow up our CRPF convoys.

 

[avknight1408]

With the kind of money allotted by the army, I don't think that this was ever an issue.

Also moving the production from OFB to private sector is a sure fire way to increase the production and quality control.

I seriously hope that Sandeep is wrong this time because I had high hopes for a multi cal system that will reduce the logistical footprint.

OFB is a trap. OFB will resist any reform. Heck, it cant even be corporatized. The trade unions will block it. OFB is a governmental organisation. They have a civil service called Indian ordinance factory service. They are actually civil servants. MoD has no way but to stick with OFB eventhough it uses British era technique of making weapons. So now if Private companies start eating into OFB marketshare , the OFB will become one big white elephant. Our labour laws are so crazy that eventhough they have no contracts the govt cant close down state owned enterprises. There are many PSUs which are sitting idle for many decades yet their employees have all privilages.

 

[pmaitra]

OFB is a trap. OFB will resist any reform. Heck, it cant even be corporatized. The trade unions will block it. OFB is a governmental organisation. They have a civil service called Indian ordinance factory service. They are actually civil servants. MoD has no way but to stick with OFB eventhough it uses British era technique of making weapons. So now if Private companies start eating into OFB marketshare , the OFB will become one big white elephant. Our labour laws are so crazy that eventhough they have no contracts the govt cant close down state owned enterprises. There are many PSUs which are sitting idle for many decades yet their employees have all privilages.

• When India wanted to upgrade from the Lee-Enfield to the FN-FAL, the deal with the Belgian gun maker fell through. It was from then that OFB started making in house parts of rifles. That is the reason why, Belgian FN-FAL and Indian made FN-FAL clones (called SLR) do not have many interchangeable parts. There was no FN-FAL in the British era.
• OFB has parkarization techniques. This is a new technique that never exited during British era. In the British era, a black tarry material was used, called cosmoline.
• OFB operates quite a few computer operated machines, the most important of which is the cold forging machine, which is very modern, and did not exist during British era.

All I have to say Sir, you claims that OFB uses British era technology, is complete fiction.

Edited to add:

Please read this post.

Old Carl-Gustav:

New Carl-Gustav, 1991 technology. (British era ended in 1947). OFB started producing these after 1991.

Even after seeing these pictures, if you still believe that OFB uses British era technology, then there is no point in arguing with you. You can believe whatever you want.

 

[Hari Sud]

Good to hear, the selection of Excalibur rifle news by the Indian Army. It was not highly unexpected after sexy looking foreign rifles failed tests in India.

Booooo..... to Phoren Maal.

The arms import industry in India are turning in their sleep at this piece of news.

The nay sayers in this forum and other forums should be ashamed at the negative campaign they had launched against INSAS rifle. But they were rendered speechless after Gen. V K Singh, had all but nice things to say about the existing INSAS rifle. His points, right from the former COAS mouth was that it is defensive weapon built to specs. of nineties and has a flat trajectory with high velocity bullet which goes thru the person hit and shoots upto 450 yards. The terrorists, but not our enemy armies, are equipped with a weapon which is lousy in range, highly inaccurate but fully automatic AK47 rifles. The terrorists does not care whom he hits in an auto mode as long he hits somebody. The armies accurately hit the enemy soldier in their gun sight, and that is what it separates a terrorists from a soldier.

Now a campaign is about to begin, probably starting from this forum and other forums, by fully paged agents of the arms merchant and only 20-23 years of age, to foul mouth Excalibur. They have not seen the business end of this rifle and for that reason any rifle but are rifle experts. They will begin with by saying all the bad things about quality of the make, OFB, MOD and everybody else who was in this decision making process. None of these less intelligent people would have anything to say about the quality, make and metallurgy of the four foreign rifles tested by the army and which all failed. For a change boys, get on their case and start criticizing them for poor quality and wasting India's time of four years in testing these miserable rifles. Nay, boys you won't do that as tend to loose your income.

Shame on you, all the nay sayers.

 

[cobra commando]

Excalibur ki baat chal he rahi hai toh iss threadwa ko bhi check kar lijeye plis:

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/insas-excalibur-in-person.57458/

 

[pmaitra]

Excalibur ki baat chal he rahi hai toh iss threadwa ko bhi check kar lijeye plis:

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/insas-excalibur-in-person.57458/

Thanks for sharing. This is a very good thread with a lot of close up of the Excalibur.

 

[pmaitra]

Army prepares for crucial trials as chief insists on indigenous Excalibur rifle

On Tuesday, in a signal of army chief General Dalbir Singh’s determination to arm his soldiers with a “Made in India” rifle, his infantry chief visited an Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) facility near Kolkata that is fabricating a batch of 200 Excalibur rifles. The army will formally trial evaluate these later this year.

On his visit to Rifle Factory, Ishapore (RFI) on Tuesday, Lieutenant General Sanjay Kulkarni, the infantry director general, put the prototype Excalibur through the “water” and “mud” tests, in which the rifle is fired after being fully immersed in those substances. The Excalibur handily passed these tests, which all four foreign rifles had failed to clear.

The OFB has confirmed to Business Standard that the army has pulled out all stops to institutionally oversee the project, something that the navy has often done but is unprecedented for the army. A number of army shooters are stationed at Ishapore where they carry out extensive test firing daily.

 

[Saichand K]

Look at the below link. Its a single barrel 5.56mm rifle under the name Rifle 5.56mm Mk 1C to be developed and produced by OFB and DRDO. How is it different from our regular INSAS rifle? Any info regarding this rifle??
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=137795