What devoured glamorous Pakistan?

Discussion in 'Pakistan' started by Daredevil, Sep 5, 2010.

  1. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    Usually I would highlight important points in an article but this article is worth of highlighting it totally. So, read it all. A very nice deconstruction of how Pakistan lost its glamour based on flash and how India gained respect with substance. Must read for all.

     
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  3. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 मध्यस्थ Stars and Ambassadors

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    Hmmm. Triumph of substance over hype and fakeness.

    Yes, he is right. It is impossible to link Pakistan with achievement and glamor today. It was all too fake even then.
     
  4. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 मध्यस्थ Stars and Ambassadors

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    About Imran Khan, I used to like him earlier but later on I saw the kind of duplicitous and fake person he is.

    He comes to India to make money and acceptability. Then he goes back and shows how racist he is:



    Watch him talk of the Indian skin color here.

    When a primitive Pushtunwali tribal like him can ape a Western lifestyle, who can't! ;)

    He may have studied in some Oxford college, at heart he is still a primitive Pushtun tribal and that will never change.

    That is the true: Kawwa chalaa hans ki chaal...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  5. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    "A fairer person lost not Heaven; he seemed
    For dignity composed and high exploit:
    But all was false and hollow; though his tongue
    Dropped manna, and could make the worse appear
    The better reason, to perplex and dash
    Maturest counsels: for his thoughts were low;
    To vice industrious, but to noble deeds
    Timorous and slothful."

    Paradise Lost-John Milton
     
  6. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 मध्यस्थ Stars and Ambassadors

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    Here is the earlier article he is talking about.

    Independence Day reflections from London​



    Posted By: Vir Sanghvi | Posted On: 13 Aug 2010 08:47 PM

    [​IMG]This column is being written in London. I will be back in India for Independence Day but for all of the last week I have been travelling through Scandinavia and England. The journey has given me the advantage of perspective. As we celebrate Independence Day, I am struck by how differently foreigners now view us from the way in which they have regarded us for years.

    The obvious contrast is with England. Over 30 years ago, at roughly this time of year, I came to London to go to school here. At that time, almost every reference to India was negative. The Emergency was treated as proof of the fragility of Indian democracy. We were dismissed as a nation of lazy, quarrelsome people who had no money and lurched from famine to drought.

    It did not help that earlier in that decade, Ugandan dictator, Idi Amin, had thrown Asians out of his country forcing many of them to seek refuge in Britain. Though the Ugandan Asians were highly qualified and hardworking, their detractors used them to prop up the caricature of Indians as a burden on the societies of the West.

    In that era, people were still astonished that Indians could speak English well. At school, I was forever being complimented on the quality of my writing and debating skills. But beneath the compliments lay a tone of amazement: “How come you Johnnies learn to speak our language so well?”

    Then, there was the Hindu-Muslim question. Many people said to me, in all seriousness, that Hindus and Muslims were always ready to tear each other’s throats out and were entirely incapable of living in peace. Some went so far as to suggest that it was only the stabilising influence of the British Raj that had kept us from massacring each other.

    I thought back to those days a couple of weeks ago when David Cameron arrived in India with a delegation of businessmen all eager to sell us their wares. Cameron said all the right things – he even painted Pakistan as an exporter of terrorism – and flattered India so much that it was hard not to like him. But beneath the bonhomie lay a hard, commercial reality: Britain needs India.

    Talking to people in London, I am constantly astonished by how completely the perception of India has changed from the negative image that held sway during my school days. In that era, if you mentioned India, people thought of hunger and famine. Now, they talk about a high rate of growth, a booming economy and the software industry. Such great British icons of my school days as British Steel and British Leyland are now owned by Indians. Nobody regards this as at all odd or noteworthy. Nor does anybody find it strange that Britain’s richest man is an Indian, L.N. Mittal, raised in Calcutta and still the proud owner of an Indian passport. It is almost as though the Indian ascendency has been a fait accompli.

    When I was in school and university, London was in thrall to the Arabs, who were flinging their oil money around. You hardly ever saw Indians in smart restaurants or in the top shops. At such department stores as Selfridges, an Indian walking the floor was likely to be stopped by other shoppers who thought he was a sales assistant. Even in the 1980s, when West End shops hired Indian salespeople, they were gently encouraging if such salespeople dyed their hair brown and spoke in Arab accents.

    Now, Indians are London’s biggest spenders. Such expensive restaurants as Hakkasan, Nobu and Kai would probably have to shut down if they lost their Indian customers. At the Armani shop on New Bond Street, they brag about the rich Indians who go there. And at nearly every expensive shop in London, salespeople will serve Indians first because they believe we may spend more money than the Brits. (To be fair, the Russians still have the edge over Indians but the Brits hardly get a look in.)

    "We never thought that Indians would make such global fortunes that the wealth of Britain would pale in comparison to their assets." What’s made the difference?

    I think two separate developments have taken place. The first does not really concern us but is worth noting. The East African Asians who were the subject of so much scorn in the 1970s have now established themselves as equal partners in British society. Brits have realised that these were highly intelligent and well-qualified people who had suffered a temporary setback only because of the racism and xenophobia of African politicians. The period of adversity made them work even harder and their rise through the ranks of British society and the meritocracy has been so swift as to be almost unprecedented.

    The second development is the rise of India since the 1990s. It is significant that the richest Indians in Britain (the Mittals, the Hindujas, Naresh Goyal, etc.) are not British Asians. They are not people who have made their money in England and many of them (with the possible exception of the Hindujas) have no interest in becoming British citizens.

    Their success has turned the conventional wisdom on its head. In the old days, the Brits accepted that there would be some Indians immigrants who would make money in England and rise to the top of the social structure. In fact, that has not really happened. Most British Asian millionaires are strictly second-division. The real money has been made by Indian citizens who have used their business acumen to build up international empires and use London as no more than a professional base. Someone like Sunil Mittal is far richer than any British Asian millionaire and runs a global empire. When he spends time in London (he has a flat here), he does it because he likes the city not because he has any desire to make money out of England.

    The other negative perceptions have been tempered by experience. Nobody lectures us on Hindu-Muslim relations any longer given that the UK faces so much difficulty in integrating young Muslims who have been born and brought up in the UK (the tube bombers, for example). Nor is our ability to speak English the subject of much wonder. In fact, it is the cause of considerable annoyance as British jobs get exported to Indian call centres.

    When I was at school, we could never have imagined that such a day would come to pass. We never thought that Indians would make such global fortunes that the wealth of Britain would pale in comparison to their assets. Nor did we think it possible that the Made in India label which was regarded with so much derision in those days would become a mark of quality in such areas as computer software. In retrospect, the most amazing thing is how quickly it has all happened. Most changes that are as fundamental as this one take a generation or more. But the effortless rise of India has taken less than two decades.

    So, as we take stock of what we have achieved in the decades since Independence, let’s recognise that India is still a country with many problems. But let’s also acknowledge that what we have achieved is just short of miraculous. We have gone from being a country the West wrote off to becoming the country they all want to suck up to.

    Happy Independence Day.
     
  7. ashdoc

    ashdoc Senior Member Senior Member

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    Well , ' our ' sania mirza wants to get laid by a pakistani...........:a096:
     
  8. Rebelkid

    Rebelkid Regular Member

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    There are always exceptions :emot180:
     
  9. Iamanidiot

    Iamanidiot Elite Member Elite Member

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    idiocy,stupidity,false prestige,inferiority and superiority complex,imagined enimity with india,bigotry,intolerance,parllel cousin marriages(causes low IQ in progeny),lack of strategy all caused image deficit and will also cause that jerry can structure implode from within.

    PS:Coupled with ethnic superiority complex
     
  10. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    the article is rather exaggerated from my point of view. India has always been known in the uk as a country with castes so the english looked and tried to ascertain which "caste" you came from. They always knew the uppers spoke well and considered them more as "italian" and then there were the unfortunate lot. They considered most indians to be math experts and were surprised if some were not. THe east -african asians were alway held in high esteem for their business acumen and the stereo-type was that they came in with only the shirts on their backs and in a couple of years they owned the supermarket In terms of their view of india however i might agree with the article , it was generally regarded as never to be able to arise out of poverty. I cant agree with his portrayal of pakistan among the british. They were always regarded a non-issue , from my perspective. The fact that there are today many rich folks in the indian community of the uk , both from east africa and elsewhere is not a factor of surprise amont the british people i knew. They always held that it is an intelligent group of peolpe and likened us to the wealthy jews.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2010
  11. ashdoc

    ashdoc Senior Member Senior Member

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    indians have always lacked the flamboyance of the pakistanis.........the performance of indians and pakistanis was like the performance of the respective cricket teams........our team was staid , lacked fast bowlers ,and were losers........while their team was mercurial , had fast bowlers ,and produced winners......
     
  12. sukhish

    sukhish Senior Member Senior Member

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    I like the way india is and has always been. all this glamour and flamboyance only lasts for so long. ultimately substance counts. you can't run on empty tank forever.
    pakistan lacks substancial substance and the only think they can brag about is their so called past glory and nothing else, because their future will be nothing short of a dissaster.
    pakistanis have made a house on an extremly weak foundation and that house is beginiing to clooapse now.
     
  13. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    This is a very very important article to help understand Pakistanis and where they are coming from.


    Roughly, from independence up till the early 90s Pakistan was superior to India in its economic growth, infrastructure and industrialization. Indians living on the borders used to tune into Pakistani TV and radio, Pakistani women magazines were smuggled in for the latest trends, and Pakistan cricket team had many admirers here too. Even the Indian students abroad were awestruck by Pakistani students wealth and liberal outlook. Pakistan having being made for the elite classes had succeeded, the liberal Muhajirs ruled the roost when it came to bureaucracy and military, the feudals/landlords ruled the lands and were the government.

    India at the time was going through dark ages, the Rajas had their privy purses snatched away, the Zamindars had their land redistributed, the Industrialists had their industries privatized and bureaucracy had taken over the country. Then there were insurgencies, famines riots and draconian laws. (Hello all Indira G lovers). World had passed its judgement, India was doomed to crash.

    ---
     
  14. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    Another article to illustrate my point.


    Failed talks in Islamabad - India - The Times of India
     
  15. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

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    I have a hard time believing Pakistan was ever this "glamorous". Maybe because it was just before my time.

    At any rate all the "glamor" was nothing more than a farce.
     
  16. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 मध्यस्थ Stars and Ambassadors

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    Singhji, the rot in Pakistan had been set long before the 1990s. Even though it came out in full glory in the last few decades.

    Sectarian riots were happening since the 60s and 70s. The boastful claims of a Pakistani Muslim = 10 Indian Hindus were being made in the 1960s. The "22 families" have been controlling Pakistan since the time of it's birth. It has always been feudal, no land reforms, no reforms of any sort. That is not what Pakistan was made for, just to preserve the aristocratic Muslim's and Mullah's power.

    Pakistan is meeting it's appointed destiny. It couldn't have been otherwise. A nation created on the basis of narrow sectarianism could only go in this direction. When the minorities were almost completely ethnically cleansed, they turned on the other sects (non Sunni to start with). The next step would be the other Sunni sub sects. That is the only likely way it will go.

    Even the example given in the OP are mostly about a very small minority of Pakistan. The likes of Imran Khan and Bhutto were the small aristocracy of Pakistan. They don't represent the reality of the 180 million poor and desperate Pakistanis.
     
  17. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    The answer is pretty simple; till USA was there to handle and keep Pakistani economy in cradle, it was going fine by the feudal lords. Once that was over and the work was handed back to Pakistan, they didn't know what to make of it and have been crammed with troubles due to their own self-obsession.
     
  18. Rebelkid

    Rebelkid Regular Member

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    Economy: on the verge of collapse?

    Finance Minister Hafeez Sheikh’s warning to officials of the state, delivered in a sombre meeting late last month, could not be clearer: the government, federal and provincial, is on the verge of financial collapse. So dire is the state of affairs that the government may not have money to pay salaries in a few months. Lest this be dismissed as hyperbole, Mr Sheikh’s comments have been echoed privately by many economists and experts familiar with state finances in recent weeks. In fact, if anything the finance minister’s comments are on the more optimistic side of dire.



    The basic problem is clear: the Pakistani state, all tiers of government, spends twice as much as revenue generated, while neither is expenditure being curtailed nor are revenues being meaningfully increased. At the level of the citizenry, the immediate impact is felt in the form of rising inflation (sustained budget deficits of the kind Pakistan has had over the last few years are highly inflationary in nature) while in the long term it will be felt in terms of debt servicing crowding out investments in development and infrastructure.

    The blame must be shared by everyone. At the federal level, the government has been disastrously uninterested in reforming the tax system or trimming the fat in the budget. Public-sector enterprises blow a Rs250bn hole in the budget each year, but restructuring is something that is only promised, never initiated. On the revenue side, the government has been unable to even resolve the objections of some provinces to the ‘revised’ General Sales Tax, aka the Value Added Tax. Now, the president has suggested widening the tax net with a ‘one-time’ imposition of tax on unaffected farmers and on urban property, but it remains to be seen if the idea leads to anything concrete.



    Meanwhile, the government appears content to keep on borrowing from private banks (which crowds out private investment) and the State Bank (which turbo-charges inflationary pressures) — Finance Minister Sheikh has warned that State Bank borrowing is ‘no longer an option’ but that has been the case for the last several years. The armed forces, meanwhile, are engaged in necessary operations to fight militancy, but they have shown little interest in belt-tightening. Experts familiar with military expenditures and budgets suggest that more transparency would slash many unnecessary and bloated expenses.

    The provinces, too, are to blame, arguing for and getting more autonomy through the 18th Amendment and more resources under the latest NFC award but showing little interest in expanding their own revenue bases. Responsible spending appears to be a concept Pakistani policymakers do not understand.

    DAWN.COM | Editorial | Economy: on the verge of collapse?

    -----------------------
    How long can they really continue borrowing money ? IS there any economic limit or something ? AM no economist ! Not like u can run forever with increasing Debt...
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2010
  19. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    this article takes me back to the times when every little news that used to trickle down to india about pakistan was one to glamorize about and possibly only fantasize about. their cars, their roads, their economy, their elites, their women, their mags, their channels, their music, back then it was almost all about them and this "about them and how good they were" continued well into the early 90s when the world around us started to change and pakistan caught on with the downward spiral, times changed, and from "about them" it changed to "about india" in pakistan, where now in pakistan all the talk is about how stunningly india have taken these huge economic strides, of how successful india is in almost every sphere and in comparison how they have lost it somewhere.

    its been a spectacular journey from being have nots where people despised the indians to where today every other world leader and country wants india on its side. what a remarkable journey it has been, and what a proud moment it is when one looks back, india achieved a lot and yet a lot more needs to be achieved. it is also funny to see the young in their teens and 20s who seem to suggest india achieved nothing, they should have been born in the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s to understand where india was and where we stand today.
     
  20. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Parts of Pakistan is beautiful, especially the Northern Areas and Swat.

    But it requires people who appreciate beauty to nurture it.

    Beauty does not grow from the barrel of a gun or through the cloud of perpetually burning hate!
     
  21. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 मध्यस्थ Stars and Ambassadors

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    Well, you remind me of a directive to BBC reporters few decades back.

    Supposedly, they were not to let the news of any monkey in Delhi pass. That is all they wanted to cover about India!
     

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