'What can India do if there's another 26/11? Nothing!'

[Sabir]

True Qsaark..........I didnt think that way.

 

[ahmedsid]

War has been fought in the past, and Qsaark is right, in 1971 Pak army was brought to its knees, and then what happened? Lots of stuff happened! Bomb Blasts, Kargil, Khalistan etc etc!

I would prefer a covert operation in which Anti Pak army forces are brought under one umbrella and a coup within the Army or something of that sort. People power is the way. Another Orange Revolution supported by RAW????

 

[SATISH]

No, war is not all that bad, I fully agree with you. But we have seen the result of the war and the humiliation of the Pakistani forces in 1971. What did change after that? Nothing, not one thing. Why it did not change? Because whoever came to power after Yahya was himself from the ruling elite class, a disciple of former dictators, Iskander Mirza and Ayub Khan.

The situation in Pakistan is still not any different. If today the two countries go for a war, I can give you in writing that Pakistani forces will be defeated badly. Yet, this will change nothing, because the people who will replace them are still from the ruling elite class. That is why, I am suggesting that India has to work at grass root level. If there comes a revolution in Pakistan against the ruling elites and India has played a rule in it, perhaps that will solve the problem once for all.

Sir,
Working in grass root levels is far more harder sir. It might take years or decades for it to fructify. Think about all those innocent lives lost inbetween due to these wars fought by intelligence agencies and their handymen. How is Pakistan trying to curb them? Everyone knows that India was not thought to hit back at Pakistan in both 1965 and 1971. But it happened. This is the blunder made by Pakistanis both the time and one time they paid with half their country.Well dont tell me India intervened so Bangladesh was split if we hadnt someone else would have (read The U.S.), if you dont believe me I will even upload you the original 924 page document of the declassified CIA documents for you. We never wanted to attack you people that time but your elites asked for it.
I already told you that India-Pakistan animosity can be stopped only by total reform for your educational system and accept the facts and move on. Reasoning must be taught to people not chest thumping. Only then there will be sane talks between the two countries.
Well dont take this to your heart, but Pakistani media is worse than Indian media. Proper reporting and good analysis must be made and both sides of the story must be told...not someone who sits and rants on TV....they make me feel Bharka Dutt is a far better reporter.

 

[ppgj]

Indians have to understand that the decisions are not made by the Pakistani masses (as there has not been any democracy) but by the ruling elite class.

i am sure even the masses in pakistan will be wise enough to know what their agencies have been upto in india for nearly 2 decades now.they would not be so naive. if they did not, i am sure they would, atleast after the way pakistan has been dragging on 26/11 aftermath particularly in the light of what geo tv or dawn did. now that brings us to the point you are making decisions are not made by them. don't you think that is good enough reason for them to do something about it. if they can do against musharraf with lawyers and the media, why can't against the agencies who do all this? and bring a bad name to their country and bring it frequently to almost war like situations with india? why don't the civil society barring a couple of individuals who i greatly regard do nothing like the way they did in the recent past. or india is different so they need not worry?

 

[qsaark]

I would prefer a covert operation in which Anti Pak army forces are brought under one umbrella and a coup within the Army or something of that sort. People power is the way. Another Orange Revolution supported by RAW????

Ahmed, it is not that the entire Army is like this. Most of the junior ranked officers (below the rank of Brigadier) and some of the senior ranked officers (Brigadier and up) are ‘normal’ people. They understand what the problem is (remember the column written by Lt-Col Mukhtar Ahmed Butt “India not our enemy”). Problem is the highest level Military and the civilian ruling elite class. So we don’t want to harm the Pakistan Army as such rather we need to put the Generals on leash. There are two ways of doing it.

A. To let the democracy continue in Pakistan uninterrupted so it could take up its roots.

B. Go for a bloody revolution.

India can help Pakistan in both the options. I have suggested a number of measures in my post # 15. They will all help in strengthening the democracy in Pakistan and to change or improve the overall impression of India in a very very positive way. India can also support the revolutionaries, as she did in 1971. However, that approach may backfire as it did after 1971. There are reasons why Bangladeshis don’t find India as a friendly nation. So in my opinion, it would be better that India helps changing the thoughts of the people no matter how long it takes. Look, India and Pakistan has to live together, it is simple as that. The choice that the two has to make is, how they are going to live, in peace and like friends, or as enemies.

 

[qsaark]

Sir,
Working in grass root levels is far more harder sir. It might take years or decades for it to fructify. Think about all those innocent lives lost inbetween due to these wars fought by intelligence agencies and their handymen. How is Pakistan trying to curb them? Everyone knows that India was not thought to hit back at Pakistan in both 1965 and 1971. But it happened. This is the blunder made by Pakistanis both the time and one time they paid with half their country.Well dont tell me India intervened so Bangladesh was split if we hadnt someone else would have (read The U.S.), if you dont believe me I will even upload you the original 924 page document of the declassified CIA documents for you. We never wanted to attack you people that time but your elites asked for it.

Satish, have you read my earlier posts? Did you find me a closed minded person? Did I ever say anything different than what you have mentioned above?

I already told you that India-Pakistan animosity can be stopped only by total reform for your educational system and accept the facts and move on. Reasoning must be taught to people not chest thumping. Only then there will be sane talks between the two countries.

Well dont take this to your heart, but Pakistani media is worse than Indian media. Proper reporting and good analysis must be made and both sides of the story must be told...not someone who sits and rants on TV....they make me feel Bharka Dutt is a far better reporter.

Absolutely, and that is why, in my post#15, I suggested that GoI mist ease up the visa restrictions, and offer scholarships to Pakistanis. That will allow the young Pakistanis to come to India, experience the development India has made, and witness the result of a continued democracy first hand.

As far as media is concerned, I have seen revolutionary changes. You must listen to Geo and ARY. They are extremely balanced and allow both the sides to present their case freely. Now there indeed are some morons, but Satish, we also need some entertainment don’t we?

 

[indian_blues]

Why India need to reform pakistan covertly or overtly, when it has already inflicted zillion damages to Indian people and to the country? We can't afford it. If he is a bad brother let him be and he has to face the consequences, now he lost his respect, sovereignty, economy and it's leaders. I'm sorry pakistan is imploding. Future is bleak. You can't live on bashing someone, you have to move on.

As far as the topic is concerned we can't do anything if mumbai type terrorist attack happens, this is the land of Gandhi we will suffer but we will emerge victorious.

When we ridicule that we don't even know who is governing the country whom we expect to take action?

 

[Sabir]

Qsaark , human mind is very complex one, very difficult to change if brainwashed from the beginning. A lot of Bangladeshi students you will find in Kolkata. Thousands of persons come to kolkata from Bangladesh for treatment. Still there is no change . Once I met one Bangladeshi who came to Kolkata for treatment and blaming GOI for troubles in Dhaka University while being a guest to India. Their brains are washed such a way you cant stop them alleging India even for least little things.

 

[qsaark]

I am sure even the masses in pakistan will be wise enough to know what their agencies have been upto in india for nearly 2 decades now.they would not be so naive. if they did not, i am sure they would, atleast after the way pakistan has been dragging on 26/11 aftermath particularly in the light of what geo tv or dawn did. now that brings us to the point you are making decisions are not made by them. don't you think that is good enough reason for them to do something about it. if they can do against musharraf with lawyers and the media, why can't against the agencies who do all this? and bring a bad name to their country and bring it frequently to almost war like situations with india? why don't the civil society barring a couple of individuals who i greatly regard do nothing like the way they did in the recent past. or india is different so they need not worry?

Yes, the masses know what their agencies and ruling classes are doing, but they are helpless. Yes the civil society is aware, but who listens to the civil society? You are talking about a place where an innocent College Professor is beaten up by an ordinary sepoy, and threatened to be turned in on terrorism charges only because he (Professor) wanted to help a Sikh pessenger travelling in the same coach (I'll write about this shameful incident in details seperately) and the whole episode goes unreported in English newspapers. Only because the English newspapers are read by the ruling elite class. Look at me, how helpless I am? To voice my concerns, I need the help of a non-Pakistani forum.

 

[qsaark]

Why India need to reform pakistan covertly or overtly, when it has already inflicted zillion damages to Indian people and to the country? We can't afford it. If he is a bad brother let him be and he has to face the consequences, now he lost his respect, sovereignty, economy and it's leaders. I'm sorry Pakistan is imploding. Future is bleak. You can't live on bashing someone, you have to move on.

Because India can not live in isolation. Not even the United States and Russia could isolate themselves from their neighbors. Things that affect your neighbors ultimately affect you, and that is why, their stability is your stability. Regarding the future, no one knows. Bleak it may be, but there is something after the bleakness too.

 

[natarajan]

india ,pakistan and all 26/11 can not be changed in just a second first usa should leave afpak either by winning or accept the defeat,pakistan should forget about matching india with weapons as india is not going to attack by themselves but it might retaliate if attacked or provoked so concentrate on education,infrastructure etc with the aid provided by usa instead buying subs and guns.You can very well come here or get guidance to set up a world class universities and hospitals ,if there is no terrorist threat and change in people attitude even many here will open universities and hospitals to cater you,its all dependent on people's mindset as pakistan views afghanistan economic reforms of india itself a threat but not drones by usa which kills many of their own people
hope you understand what needs to be addressed

 

[Sabir]

What is common people's opinion about 26/11 incidents. Though we are in USA, still hope some idea about the mass sentiment there. Initially Pak government tried to hide Kasav's identity ( though Nawaz Sharif once claimed Kasav ia Pakistani and later denied his statement, i can guess why.) How people are taking this type of hypocracy from the government which is blackening their image in front of the world. Or they are interested in Zaid Hamid's version to find peace in mind.

 

[qsaark]

india ,pakistan and all 26/11 can not be changed in just a second first usa should leave afpak either by winning or accept the defeat,pakistan should forget about matching india with weapons as india is not going to attack by themselves but it might retaliate if attacked or provoked so concentrate on education,infrastructure etc with the aid provided by usa instead buying subs and guns.You can very well come here or get guidance to set up a world class universities and hospitals ,if there is no terrorist threat and change in people attitude even many here will open universities and hospitals to cater you,its all dependent on people's mindset as pakistan views afghanistan economic reforms of india itself a threat but not drones by usa which kills many of their own people
hope you understand what needs to be addressed

While you are right in stating the solutions, your tone is not. With this tone, you simply can not make understand others that they are wrong. I hope that you understand why problems erupt between Indians and Pakistanis on the various for a from out of nowhere. We need to discuss, not to give lectures or instruct each other. If you ask me, I will stop posting any further on this issue?

 

[qsaark]

What is common people's opinion about 26/11 incidents. Though we are in USA, still hope some idea about the mass sentiment there. Initially Pak government tried to hide Kasav's identity ( though Nawaz Sharif once claimed Kasav ia Pakistani and later denied his statement, i can guess why.) How people are taking this type of hypocracy from the government which is blackening their image in front of the world. Or they are interested in Zaid Hamid's version to find peace in mind.

I think there is a clear change and it is also being reflected in several recent polls. People have finally come to realized that the GoP’s policy of supporting the militant outfits was not right and it led to lots of problems. There has never been an overwhelming support for such outfits even during the time of Afghan war, but when religion comes in between, you know what happens.

 

[Sabir]

Qsaark, What do you feel about influence of China among ruling elites in pakistan. It is a fact China has built up an image of savior of Pakistan and many Pakistani are appluled because of this friendship (We consider China just converting Pakistan a puppet to do their job).

 

[Sabir]

Yes Qsaark. It is relegion that always come in between. From bottom of my heart I hate our Mullahs who do not hasitate to build up fancy stories to attract people's attention as if islam itself has lost its attraction. For so called Muslim Ummah they shifted far from what our prophet had preached.

 

[qsaark]

Qsaark, What do you feel about influence of China among ruling elites in pakistan. It is a fact China has built up an image of savior of Pakistan and many Pakistani are appluled because of this friendship (We consider China just converting Pakistan a puppet to do their job).

While China has been helping Pakistan militarily, I have yet to see her investment in the civilian sector. There are few examples such as Sandek project, Gawader port in Balochistan. But these projects have yet to benefit the common people. For instance, from the Sandek project, the people of Balochistan get only 2% royalty. Rest of the 98% is divided between Islamabad and China. Similarly, the people of Balochistan have gained nothing from the Gawader port. I do not see if China is investing even moderately in power generation sector (I don’t count nuclear power plants as they are there for some other purpose), or education or basic infrastructure such as building roads, railroads etc. Karakoram highway can be given as an example but that was primarily built for the transportation of the military goods not for the civilians use. I do not think that the common Pakistanis even think about who is an enemy and how is the savior. These kind of things you find in the newspapers or in the different fora and both do not represent the thinking of the masses.

 

[NSG_Blackcats]

If anything like 26/11 happens again than I have no doubt in my mind; there will be a military strike by India on Pakistan. The consequence of which will be a full scale war (may be nuclear) between India and Pakistan. Everyone saw the public outcry after 26/11. So if anything like 26/11 happens GOI will be forced to take action by the people of India.

 

[ab041937]

The reason border disputes between India and Pakistan have reached an almost stalemate stage is because Pakistan is not going to stop at the Kashmir dispute. If we give away POK, they'll ask for the rest of the state, and then the Junagarh region, and then pretty much every part of India which is a hot-spot for Muslim oppression (induced by them). As a matter of fact this view can be applied in both cases (India's and Pakistan's (that India won't stop at claiming POK as their own...)) It's also that no government will risk conceding territory to Pakistan as that would pretty much guarantee that their political party will never come to power for at least another two decades.

Kashmir is a dispute that is considered. Line of control is not marked as an international border. That is what the dispute is. Beyond that it doesn't matter whether it considers Junagarh/Hyderabad/Assam/Mumbai as disputed or not. These are territories well marked by UN as part of Indian Union. Kashmir is not. Though, I am can firmly say that Pak wouldn't stop its covert operations inside India if the Kashmir dispute is settled in its favour. This is one reason why India is not relenting an inch.

GoI on the other hand has more or less agreed on making LoC as international in accordance to the wishes of major UN members. Status Quo basically suits the Indians well and government is more or less willing to settle on this. Debate over this topic has happened several times in the past in Parliament and now almost all major parties in India are onboard over this issue along with the media. I don't think there would be any hiccups while implementing it. But asusual, Opposition parties would definately try to play politics over this issue to gather some cheap votes but, overall there wouldn't be a major showdown.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

qsaark isn't there a fear in the baluchis that if the pakistani punjabis allow the Chinese in they will pillage baluchistan of all the resources that belong to the Baluchis ?