'What can India do if there's another 26/11? Nothing!'

Discussion in 'West Asia & Africa' started by Daredevil, Sep 22, 2009.

  1. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    'What can India do if there's another 26/11? Nothing!'

    September 22, 2009 10:20 IST

    Najam Sethi, editor-in-chief of Pakistan's Daily Times and Friday Times newspapers and one of that country's most influential journalists, has said that even if there is another Mumbai-type terrorist attack that emanates from his soil, there is absolutely nothing India can do, and warned that if India launches a military strike, there would be all-out war that would de-stabilise the entire region and have an adverse impact on India's quest to be a global power.

    In an interaction with leading think-tanks and scholars, who focus on the subcontinent, and heads of South Asia programmes hosted by the Asia Programme of the Woodrow Wilson International Centre for Scholars, Sethi said there was no guarantee that there could not be another Mumbai [ Images ] "because many of these former non-State actors, which became State actors, are now back to their non-State actor role -- some of them fairly autonomous."

    Arguing that India's demand that the composite dialogue cannot be resumed unless and until there is a crackdown on some of these elements as 'unreasonable', he said: "It took 30 years to make these non-State actors effective and they are not going to be disbanded and demilitarised overnight. It will take a long time. And it will take a transition period in which Indo-Pakistan relations have to get into conflict-resolution mode."

    Sethi, whose reporting has frequently put him at odds with successive governments as well as with extremist religious and militant groups, and who was recently awarded the 2009 Golden Pen of Freedom -- the annual freedom prize of the World Association of Newspapers -- said: "The tragedy is that while we prepared to accept India's position before the election, it is very inexplicable why India is persisting with this position right now."

    "It is hurtful to the cause of democracy in Pakistan, it is hurtful to the cause of Indo-Pak relations, it is hurtful to the cause of finding solutions in Afghanistan because India and Pakistan are fighting their proxy wars all over the place and because India already has a huge footprint in North Afghanistan and the Indian consulates are doing their bit there," he said.

    Sethi said, "Therefore, this is something that India and Pakistan have to come to grips with and America has to weigh in discreetly if necessary to get a dialogue moving again and to get some conflict resolution done."

    "The Indian and Pakistani proxy wars are spoiling the terrain completely," he reiterated, "and there is a mindset in Pakistan, especially in the Pakistan Army [ Images ] that finds this unacceptable."

    He said consequently, "When we say we want the composite dialogue with India to continue -- to get on with and want the back-channel activated -- we don't want any conditions put on the composite dialogue."

    Sethi said, "We find it inexplicable that a Congress government that is flushed with victory, still finds it difficult to get on with it, still is having to defend its commitments made in Sharm-el-Sheikh and that the Indian media is not part of the solution, it is still part of the problem just as the Pakistani media was part of the problem some time ago. Indian nationalism is still coming in the way."

    He asserted, "If America wants Pakistan to cooperate and find solutions within Pakistan on terrorism, on domestic violence, on the economy, then we need peace on our borders. We can't have peace on our borders if the first thought that comes to India is, if there is another Mumbai."

    "If there's another Mumbai, what then," he asked and said, there is no way India can launch military strikes.

    "What could they do? The nuclear deterrent is alive and kicking, it's in place."

    Sethi said, "Therefore, if another Mumbai happens, what does India do? Nothing. India can't do anything."

    "If India does something, we are in very deep trouble. Therefore, we have to find a solution that makes that (another) Mumbai doesn't happen, and if it does -- because there's lots of non-state actors are there who are not listening to the Pakistani military and even less so to the Pakistani opposition and Pakistani government, what if another Mumbai happens? What will India do -- will this dialogue be derailed forever? Will the terrorists succeed in driving that wedge? Will the terrorists stop the road from Delhi [ Images ] to Islamabad [ Images ] and the road from Islamabad to Kabul?"

    Sethi said, "It is in India's interest to build peace with Pakistan, because if India doesn't build peace with Pakistan, then we will fall into the Mumbai trap. Then India would have to take action, there will be war."

    "If there is war, the war on terror will get lost and the terrorists will become part of Pakistan's arsenal against India," he warned.

    Sethi recalled, "We saw a glimpse of that when Mumbai happened. The first thing the Taliban [ Images ] did was that they said we are going to stop fighting the Pakistani army and we are going to come to the border and fight with the Pakistani army against India in the event of an Indian strike."

    "That is the danger of India not defining its interests in a particular way," he said.

    Sethi argued that "if there is a war between India and Pakistan, India's economy and that whole notion of a resurgent India that is going to be the new emergent power, that's all going to get lost. We are talking nuclear weapons here and there's no way the Pakistani army is going to allow India to walk in or even to be humiliated."

    "The entire political galaxy of Pakistan, including the people of Pakistan are going to line up solidly behind the Pakistani army on this one," he said.

    And, Sethi added, "We are not talking of an army of a 100,000 people. We are talking of an army and a mindset in Pakistan -- a 60-year-old mindset in Pakistan, a national security State was that built on the basis of an enemy without, on the border. And, that's not going to change so quickly."

    "So, if there is conflict with India, it will be an all-out conflict. I say that with full responsibility. I don't wish to say it, but I have seen it at very close quarters," he said.

    "How the entire media, the entire opposition and even the Taliban suddenly folded right behind the Pakistani army on the mere mention of a threat of war with India."

    Sethi, continued to hammer away saying that consequently, "It is in India's interest also to resolve some of these disputes, build trust with Pakistan. Give the new civilian dispensation the space and the opportunity to turn some of these things back."

    "Therefore, this government needs space. We need to give Pakistan the space in which its interests can be protected with out crumbling from within," he said.

    Aziz Haniffa in Washington, DC
     
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  3. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    This guy gives an insight into thinking of Pakistani elite who rule the Pakistan be it military or politicians. This guy is actually threatening India that there will be more Mumbai-like attacks and India can do nothing. I think this might be true. India did nothing post Mumbai 26/11 attacks. This is most senile govt. I've ever seen. There is no fervor and guts in this govt. to punish the backers of these terrorists. Dossier diplomacy will not work anymore. The prosecution charade of Hafeez saeed is more than clear of how this diplomacy is going haywire.

    It is time for Indian govt. to inflict pain on Pakistan for its misdeeds. It should work actively in fomenting trouble in Pakistan and try to dismember it. That is the only option. As they say "Lathon ke Booth Bathon se nahi manthey hai" (rough english translation - Evil can be destroyed only by force not by peaceful dialogue).
     
  4. Sabir

    Sabir DFI TEAM Senior Member

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    It is taken for granted that India would avoid an escalation to full-scale war at any cost, be it toleratng death of its civilians. (Even in recent chinese intrusion same speculation about India is there). After 26/11 Delhi kept on saying war is no solution. But today it is becoming clearer there is no solution in no war too. The message should be given we are ready to see the end if necessary, not by talks but by some actions. let us be touted as agressior if that brings some result. If it escalate , let it be...defeat them...humiliate their army infront of their countrymen...let them think again before backing anytthing anti-Indian.
     
  5. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

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    what a trap by Pakistanis amazing minds .really if anything happens like mumbai or any thing bigger than it GOI will do nothing but just sit will give some comments and run towards usa complaining about terrorism. i dont think there will be war between india and pakistan until some important fig gets killed by terrorist and i don`t think this going to happen .Terrorist are smart they know indian political parties don`t care for their people.
     
  6. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

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    I think any covert operation (such as 26/11) is best responded to in the same format (a retaliatory covert operation), and not a military conflict. Military conflicts carry government rubber-stamps, covert operations don't. The fear of retaliatory covert operations is perhaps what will put a stop to such acts and the "bleed with a thousand cuts" ideology as a whole. Retaliation is the best defense.
     
  7. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    This is exactly what RAW did to Pakistan when ISI was fomenting Khalistani movement in India in 80's. RAW has inflicted a lot of pain on Pakistan (by bomb blasts in Lahore, Karachi etc) that there was a meeting between ISI and RAW to scale down the operations from respective countries. But the nitwit PM IK Gujral has dismantled RAW operations in Pakistan and made India's covert capability toothless. We need to again inflict pain on Pakistan to teach it a lesson by increased covert operations.
     
  8. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

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    whether it is state actor or non-state actor , as long as they operate from pakistan, it is the responsibilty of govt.of pakistan to see that it does not happen. otherwise they should face the consequences. it is very easy to conspire and then say they are non-state actors. they are reducing serious crimes to jokes.
     
  9. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

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    I don't think it takes long to resurrect R&AW's Pakistan operations. If the pacifist ladies at South Block had it their way, maybe it's already laid out post 26/11.
     
  10. ab041937

    ab041937 New Member

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    This is a chicken-egg problem between India & Pakistan. India wouldn't want to resolve the disputes until the terrorist network in Pak is dismantled and the terrorism would thrive in Pakistan unless & until there are disputes with India. India is absolutely right in its stance that any dialogue to resolve disputes with Pakistan for the fear of terror attack would not just give Pak an upper hand in the dialogue process but also justify the JIHAD policy of Pakistan to bleed India with thousand cuts. Also, this wouldn't stop simply at the resolution of Kashmir or Sir Creek but would also be extended to various other parts of India especially Assam and 7-sister states. It would be the beginning of another invasion on India. Therefore, I definately wouldn't talks or dispute resolution with Pakistan under the shadow of terrorism from Pakistani soil.

    Najam Sethi is trying to play bluff with this whole nuclear war thing. If using nukes was as easy as he tries to make it out then Pak would've used the nukes during Kargil conflict rather than making a tame & embarressing withdrawl. Anyone starting a nuke war wouldn't simply commit suicide but also start the whole domino's efffect for the rest of the world to follow. If it is Pak that starts a nuke war then it is very much assured that Pak is going to be history. Also, this would set the alarm bells ringing everywhere across the world and it could well become a precedent to use nukes to solve the disputes. In which case, Israel wouldn't blink an eye to wipe out Syria, Lebanon, Jordan & Iran from the list of its enemies. This would weigh heavy in the minds of Pak generals and they would most likely think a million times before pressing on the nuke button.

    The only trouble with India is to decide on how far to expand the war envelope with Pakistan. Going after the Jihadi outfits is a long & strenous excercise. It would require boots on Pakistani soil and that too for a long long period. India alone cannot do that. It would need dedicated US/NATO & Israeli support. Also, I doubt if US would allow India to do this thereby, jeoperdising the US efforts in Pak.

    The best bet for India would be to have Pak attack it in which case it would be fighting on its own soil with Home advantage and the Indian soldiers would be a lot motivated to defeat the invading force. The Kargil episode clearly demonstrated that Pakistan simply cannot walk the talk on its offensive nuclear policy. The Kargil victory broke the psychological barrier that Pakistanu nukes had on India for over a decade. We should use that to our advantage now. I say, build huge dams on all Pakistani rivers, block their water, destroy their crops and starve them until they themselves start killing the terrorist scums they nurtured all this time. Pakistan cannot destroy huge dams simply by covert operations. Grenades/Rockets cannot dent a 25-30 ft concrete wall. It would require active military operation to get control of Kashmir which is not possible for Pak armed forces and they would only end up embaressing themselves and their nation once again. Once, Pakistanis lose faith in their armed forces and ISI.. that is the day when Pakistan as a state would cease to exist.
     
  11. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    This is why it was so important for India to tie the US aid to terrorism when they had the opportunity , USA has tripled the aid to pakistan without any transparency or any conditions to prevent terrorism or measure outcomes.
     
  12. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

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    The reason border disputes between India and Pakistan have reached an almost stalemate stage is because Pakistan is not going to stop at the Kashmir dispute. If we give away POK, they'll ask for the rest of the state, and then the Junagarh region, and then pretty much every part of India which is a hot-spot for Muslim oppression (induced by them). As a matter of fact this view can be applied in both cases (India's and Pakistan's (that India won't stop at claiming POK as their own...)) It's also that no government will risk conceding territory to Pakistan as that would pretty much guarantee that their political party will never come to power for at least another two decades.
     
  13. tharikiran

    tharikiran Regular Member

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    I am not sure if India can go in for tactical strikes against terrorist camps even if we have the capability now/future. Any such strike will lead to full blown war between India and Pakistan.
    Whats possible however is to beef up internal security.Quick,swift and decisive response will do the job.The terrorists have to think twice before coming in.

    I don't see any Indian gov. having the guts to go for a full scare war with Pakistan unless being provoked first or something else dramatic happens.
     
  14. natarajan

    natarajan Senior Member Senior Member

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    if another 26/11 like attack happens ,you can see following
    1.24x7 coverage like enough is enough etc in media for atleast 3 weeks
    2.We can hear "all options are open" dialogue along with some article about iaf insurgency strikes
    3.finally india will make pakistan to accept that terrorists originated from pakistan only and we can see many indians and dfi member saying"victory,victory"
    4.millions of dossiers will be sent to pakistan which will be ultimately put to use a s toilet paper in pakistan pm,president's house
    5.After 5 or 6 months we will forget everything and will start concentrating on issue like balochistan,peace talks,reducing presence in afghanistan etc
     
  15. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    don't forget the government will be busy giving proof for 8 months and pakistan govt will be busy denying it.
     
  16. qsaark

    qsaark Regular Member

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    I have seen all kind of solutions presented by the members ranging from supporting the separatists movements to the full scale war. This is all fine and reflective of the patriotism on behalf of each member. However, as much as I know my elite class, all such attempts from the India will only help the ruling elites of Pakistan to strengthen their grip on the Pakistan. They will get a chance to tell the un-educated (not illiterate per se) masses that look we told you India is your enemy. In my opinion, what needs to be done is to educate Pakistanis. This can be done through:

    A. Ease up the visa restrictions so more Pakistanis could travel to India (after proper background checks of course)

    B. Announce academic scholarships and invite Pakistanis to study in the Indian Institutions of higher learning.

    C. Take the trade and commerce to a whole new level

    D. Resume normal diplomatic ties without enforcing too much on the Kashmir and terrorist issue while keeping the pressure.

    E. Avoid making propaganda movies in which Pakistan is always shown as the villain

    I am suggesting these measures as to me they will serve the long term interest of India as well as Pakistan and they are sustainable. Indians have to understand that the decisions are not made by the Pakistani masses (as there has not been any democracy) but by the ruling elite class. It is the elite class which is India’s enemy and using the masses of Pakistani to fulfill their agenda. The measures being suggested here by the honorable members will not harm the elite class but will only result in further weakening of the civil society of Pakistan.

    Just my two cents.
     
  17. Sabir

    Sabir DFI TEAM Senior Member

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    That is the major mistake GOI is doing. They have assumed that India will avoid a full scale war against Pakistan ( though India is much more powerful) and they can make the fun of it and sit to watch how we are reacting. They know that the ball is still in our court (whatever our topguns claim) and we are hasitating to send it to their side. Only option I belive to show the curage and send the ball to their court. Attack Jihadi camps on their side, if possible get the masterminds killed by hook or crook (if possible by the same way they are killing Indian civilians) and then sit to watch how they are reacting. In a war it is not India that will suffer. Let us see whether they have the curage for a full scale war rather than letting them watch us. BTW.......during several decades since the last Indo-Pak war more Indians got killed by the proxy war than than all three Indo-Pak wars combined. Atleast in a full scale war you have the option of killing or get killed.
     
  18. qsaark

    qsaark Regular Member

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    Set aside you emotions and read the full sentence with a chilled and open mind. Did you notice something in between the two brackets?
     
  19. Sabir

    Sabir DFI TEAM Senior Member

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    Qsaark, We can remember how common Pakistani people welcome Indian cricketers and Indian Journalists when India last time went for a cricketing tour. I can bet (though I have never visited Pakistan), a common Pakistani does not consider India an enemy as it is propagated. Rather it is sad to see educated Pakistani in different forums relishing anything anti-Indian. In an futile effort to prove Pakistan is superior to India they can sell their self-respect to Chinese and Arabs.
    But if you start anything to bring peace, that will be soon hijacked by the elites and army in Pakistan (here we have Shivsena and hindu extrimists too but they are not as powerful as their Pakistani counterparts)

    Honestly saying You are among very few ( both Pakistani and Indian included) who can put zingoism aside for mutual prosperity of both the countries but still you are very small in numbers. It is said if we come to know each other it will reduce hatred among us. But while seeing educated people getting engaged in bassing each others I can no more believe it.
    You know there in Pakistan common people is far from making any decision about India as the power is hijacked by the army and Mullahs ( doesnt matter who is president). Untill and unless they are removed common Pakistani's voice will never reach to India. War is not all bad Qsaark , I believe ( you may not agree with me and many Indian members too) Pakistan army is needed to be defeated severely and humiliated severly so that they cant be in a position to dominate the view of ordinary Pakistanis.
     
  20. ahmedsid

    ahmedsid Top Gun Senior Member

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    [mod] Natarajan, This is no Ian Fleming novel we are discussing here, I request you and the others, to Stop being Sarcastic, and Think Logically, and Post Logically! [/mod]
     
  21. qsaark

    qsaark Regular Member

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    No, war is not all that bad, I fully agree with you. But we have seen the result of the war and the humiliation of the Pakistani forces in 1971. What did change after that? Nothing, not one thing. Why it did not change? Because whoever came to power after Yahya was himself from the ruling elite class, a disciple of former dictators, Iskander Mirza and Ayub Khan.

    The situation in Pakistan is still not any different. If today the two countries go for a war, I can give you in writing that Pakistani forces will be defeated badly. Yet, this will change nothing, because the people who will replace them are still from the ruling elite class. That is why, I am suggesting that India has to work at grass root level. If there comes a revolution in Pakistan against the ruling elites and India has played a rule in it, perhaps that will solve the problem once for all.
     

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