what a farce:China set to bid on major US aerospace programmes

[redragon]

Probably because France would retaliate for breaking license terms.

Retaliation from France? How? With what? Banning Chinese ladies buying LV? Close all Carrefour in China? send troops to Africa to stop China from expanding business there? Bahahahaha....
Your heads of France does not even have balls boycotting the opening ceremony of Olympic game, and they are all singing "Tibet belongs to China"

 

[RebateKing]

Hard to believe indeed; but if true, I think this is just a gesture saying China doesn't want to be your enemy, so don't consider us so.

 

[JayATL]

good for china ... I don't see any reason why they been allowed to bid is an issue. Now the US republic will trip out if they actually got awarded it. politically reality on the ground ? I don't think it will be awarded. it's a nice gesture I guess. besides their are some competitive offers or better ones out there.

Look at the glass half full my Indian brothers. this means at some point our technology could be allowed to bid on other US projects

 

[Armand2REP]

hey Armand, have you heard about anything saying French weapons are competing for American contracts lately? Kindly share info or links regarding that, many thanks.

Tankers... already won light helos, satellites, radars and a bunch of support contracts.

 

[Armand2REP]

Retaliation from France? How? With what? Banning Chinese ladies buying LV? Close all Carrefour in China? send troops to Africa to stop China from expanding business there? Bahahahaha....
Your heads of France does not even have balls boycotting the opening ceremony of Olympic game, and they are all singing "Tibet belongs to China"

We can start with PLAN. All the surface ships use Pielstick diesels. Sanction that and watch your fleet come to a grinding halt. Then we can move on to commercial aviation. Snecma makes the engines for 70% of Airbus and 40% of Boeing. Watch over half your airliners grounded. Then Alstom supports most of the generators on the Three Gorges... watch that shut down. You need us to hit any harder? We can move on to helicopters, Turbomeca powers half the helos in China.

What is China going to do? They already kicked out Renault when we visited the DL. Shut down some Carrefour selling Chinese products? Oh no... we are doomed! lol

 

[markshen]

We can start with PLAN. All the surface ships use Pielstick diesels. Sanction that and watch your fleet come to a grinding halt. Then we can move on to commercial aviation. Snecma makes the engines for 70% of Airbus and 40% of Boeing. Watch over half your airliners grounded. Then Alstom supports most of the generators on the Three Gorges... watch that shut down. You need us to hit any harder? We can move on to helicopters, Turbomeca powers half the helos in China.

What is China going to do? They already kicked out Renault when we visited the DL. Shut down some Carrefour selling Chinese products? Oh no... we are doomed! lol

One question for you, my friend. How low is your IQ?

 

[badguy2000]

One question for you, my friend. How low is your IQ?

he must be a typical frog in a well....

 

[SHASH2K2]

he must be a typical frog in a well....

Its fun to watch frogs calling others a frog.:dancemasti:

 

[badguy2000]

Its fun to watch frogs calling others a frog.:dancemasti:

your deeds exactly show us what is frog!

 

[Armand2REP]

One question for you, my friend. How low is your IQ?

You tell me...............................

because on their high commercial commonality; examples are the SEMT-Pielstick PA- and PC-series diesels on fifty-three Chinese-built commercial ships and seventy-two PLAN naval vessels (including forty-seven combatants)."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/plan-propulsion.htm

Two dozen years later, over half of all jetliners in China are powered by CFM56 engines.

http://www.safran.cn/spip.php?rubrique7&lang=en

Powering 300 helicopters in China, Turbomeca is the leading helicopter engine supplier in China: one helicopter out of two is equipped with Turbomeca engines

http://www.safran.cn/spip.php?article749

As the largest power generation supplier to the Three Gorges Project, ALSTOM provides advanced technology & equipment to altogether 16 turbine generator units among the total of 26 units.

http://www.alstom.com/China/

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Armand China already sells the Z 9 helicopter which is a development of the Dauphin to 9 countries and France hasn't done anything, not even talk about it.

As for those engines France sells to China they are dual use technologies.. In other words China can buy those engines from even the U.S. if they felt like it which is exactly what they are doing with the AC 313. Or they could buy it from Germany, Japan, Ukraine, and etc so France has no leverage if they want to stop China if they even want to in the first place.

The stopping of exporting to China would hurt France far more than it would hurt China. Thank god for the French that you have no role in how the they chose to export.

 

[roma]

it's good news for PRC - IF it gets the bid(s)

meanwhile one trusts the USA will respect copyright infringements , legalities , contract binding with Euro Union etc before finalising their decisions

 

[Armand2REP]

Armand China already sells the Z 9 helicopter which is a development of the Dauphin to 9 countries and France hasn't done anything, not even talk about it.

Not so many as 9, but it has been exported. The caveat is they are installed with Turbomeca engines, Sagem landing and navigation systems. The difference between the AC313 is that the main suppliers are in North America, not France. Won't take too kindly to be left out of the loop when it is our design. Get the same deal for Safran as the Z-9 and it is a whole different story, of course you won't be selling it without US suppliers. US won't buy a previous generation helicopter anyway, much less Chinese.

As for those engines France sells to China they are dual use technologies.. In other words China can buy those engines from even the U.S. if they felt like it which is exactly what they are doing with the AC 313. Or they could buy it from Germany, Japan, Ukraine, and etc so France has no leverage if they want to stop China if they even want to in the first place.

It would take years to rengine airliners, not to mention VERY expensive. Can't rengine helicopters without redesign which isn't worth it. It would be such a financial and time consuming expense to rengine all of PLAN and much of the merchant fleet. To put new generators into 3 Gorges would take a decade and cost more than they paid in the first place. France can stick China with a $100 billion bill to replace the equipment and several hundred billion more in financial losses. All for the hope of selling a couple hundred million in last generation helicopters and keeping France out of the loop. That won't fly and neither will half your planes and helicopters.

The stopping of exporting to China would hurt France far more than it would hurt China. Thank god for the French that you have no role in how the they chose to export.

The only thing that will happen to France is reduction of our trade deficit. lol

 

[tanlixiang28776]

The U.S abides by the Euro Union decisions? The U.S abides by whatever rule benefits itself the most like any other country. The difference is that the U.S has the power to ignore rules that does not match its interests.

Pratt and Whitney wouldn't care as long its engines are still used.

The L 15 does not have any copyright infringements so its a moot point.

This deal if it goes through would Help U.S. and China relations which is more important than what the European Union decides.

France wouldn't even bring the fact up as it has too much interest in continuing to exporting to China. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it actually defends China if issues were raised. Sarkozy wouldn't mind scoring more brownie points with the Chinese to secure more contracts.

That is the world of politics my friends.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Armand I wish you would stop using numbers you pull out of thin air. Do some research first. The entire European union exported only 112 billion dollars worth of products to China in 2009.

While France is a important trade partner to China it is not even in the top ten as trade partners being less than even Malaysia.

The 7 billion dollars a year deficit is also dwarfed by the 183 billion a year surplus China receives.

The entire Three Gorges Dam cost 26 billion dollars which mostly went to construction.( where you got 100 billion dollars from I really don't know) France is not the only country that makes large generators and many other countries would have jumped at the opportunity to make money. That you even brought up the point is moot as the Dam already runs at full capacity and has all generators already installed. How exactly will France force China to change generators?

Redesigning airliners and helicopters is not cheap but China certainly has money to do so. Case in point is the AC 313. China makes the Helicopter and America supplies the engines so France is not in the loop. If France does not supply engines then America, Russia, Ukraine, and etc would. Please stop over hyping Frances importance to China. France is important but not irreplaceable for China.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AC0YG20101113

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/creating-opportunities/bilateral-relations/countries/china/

http://www.ceibs.edu/bmt/images/20081103/13527.pdf

http://www.threegorgesprobe.org/pi/documents/three_gorges/who.html#brazil

http://www.uschina.org/statistics/tradetable.html

Unless you can back your claims with reliable sources instead of your own wish full thinking then your arguments will be faulted to begin with. Making up wildly hyperbolic numbers decreases your validity and is also a bad habit.

 

[Armand2REP]

The U.S abides by the Euro Union decisions? The U.S abides by whatever rule benefits itself the most like any other country. The difference is that the U.S has the power to ignore rules that does not match its interests.

US-EU bilateral trade is worth twice as much as China and it is far more balanced making it the single most important thing to its economy. When EU speaks, US listens and vice versa. Not to mention the EU is the other half of NATO.

Pratt and Whitney wouldn't care as long its engines are still used.

Who cares what the company wants? They have no say in who buys it.

The L 15 does not have any copyright infringements so its a moot point.

Yak designed it because they thought they get to sell Russian engines. Instead China buys Ukraine. They aren't too happy about that so it is not so moot. Also can't forget Italy that was co-designer on the Yak-130. Arimachi has plenty of patents on that which much is used in the L-15 design.

This deal if it goes through would Help U.S. and China relations which is more important than what the European Union decides.

lol.. see first statement

France wouldn't even bring the fact up as it has too much interest in continuing to exporting to China. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it actually defends China if issues were raised. Sarkozy wouldn't mind scoring more brownie points with the Chinese to secure more contracts.

Sarkozy is gone next year, protectionists are up for election. Unlike China, we have different policies with each new government.

That is the world of politics my friends.

It is and apparently you do not understand much of it. The US is not going to buy clones of new Russian kit or clones of ancient French kit just to make nice with China. The obligation for Obama to DECREASE his trade deficit is reaching critical. You don't do that by buying Chinese clones at the state level.

 

[Armand2REP]

Armand I wish you would stop using numbers you pull out of thin air. Do some research first. The entire European union exported only 112 billion dollars worth of products to China in 2009.

While France is a important trade partner to China it is not even in the top ten as trade partners being less than even Malaysia.

The 7 billion dollars a year deficit is also dwarfed by the 183 billion a year surplus China receives.

Everything you just mentioned states Chinese trade isn't very important to France or Europe. France exports short of €400 billion, China only accounts for €12b of that. For the EU...

* EU goods exports to China 2009: €81.7 billion
* EU goods imports from China 2009: €214.7 billion

Take that hit with EU sanctions and Chinese export engine collapses. EU can survive just fine without cheap sneakers, toys and low-end electronics by buying elsewhere... like Vietnam, India, Malaysia, Taiwan. There is no substitute for the European consumer.

The entire Three Gorges Dam cost 26 billion dollars which mostly went to construction.( where you got 100 billion dollars from I really don't know) France is not the only country that makes large generators and many other countries would have jumped at the opportunity to make money. That you even brought up the point is moot as the Dam already runs at full capacity and has all generators already installed. How exactly will France force China to change generators?

$100 billion is an estimate of what it would cost to replace everything I mentioned wholesale. The several hundred billion in economic damage I mentioned was what it would cost Chinese airlines, shipping, transport, and power generation in productivity lost for the time it takes to replace it. If Alstom is sanctioned from business with China, technicians go home, parts do not get delivered and turbines break down. China has no way to fix without replacement.

Redesigning airliners and helicopters is not cheap but China certainly has money to do so. Case in point is the AC 313. China makes the Helicopter and America supplies the engines so France is not in the loop. If France does not supply engines then America, Russia, Ukraine, and etc would.

France already collected the tens of billions in engines and licenses it sold as well as billions in support contracts. China has to spend billions for redesign and tens of billions for engines all over again and hundreds of billions in lost economic activity. Is it worth it to cross France? I think not...

Please stop over hyping Frances importance to China. France is important but not irreplaceable for China.

Please stop over-hyping China's importance to France. We didn't dump ass loads of FDI into China like Germany, UK, or even Italy. We played it smart by sticking with strategic industries that are critical to economic activity. No one cares if a German toy-factory packs up... but when you make the nuclear power plants, enriched uranium, hydro generators, HSR engines, ship engines, plane engines, helicopter engines that keep the Chinese economy running... you become too costly to be rid of.

Unless you can back your claims with reliable sources instead of your own wish full thinking then your arguments will be faulted to begin with. Making up wildly hyperbolic numbers decreases your validity and is also a bad habit.

I already backed my claims from the manufacturer websites, we build the shit that keeps China running. Get over it.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

They look similar because Yakolev was paid to consult on it and that they both serve the same purpose. Yakolev's official line is that it was a Chinese project with consultation. ( To claim otherwise they would need to reverse their previous statements which would tarnish their reliability)

The L-15 was a separate project from the YAK 130. The Italian M346 Master is a development of the Yak 130.

A clone is a knockoff: an unauthorized copy or imitation. ( I assume this is the definition you had in mind) In this case your claims are false.

Yakolev willing consulted on the project and was paid likely handsomely. When you willing give away trade designs you have no right to protest when it is implemented. Companies don't shout "clone" every single time a competitor designs something similar without some kind of actual proof other wise everyone would be in court all the time. They do not shout clone just because internet warriors claim it is so.

There are also significant differences between the L 15 and Yak 130. here are some

-------------------- Yak 130 ------- L 15
maximum speed ------- 1050km/h ------- 1715 km/ h
service ceiling ------- 12,500 meters ------- 16,000 meters
Max take off weight ------- 6,500 kg ------- 8618 Kg
Range ------- 2564 km ------- 3100 km

Not taking into account avionics which are a unknown the L 15 has significantly superior performance capabilities when compared to the Yak 130.

If you want to judge something to be a clone simply due to looks that is your choice. Fortunately copyright infringement requires more than simply a external aesthetic similarity.

As for Sarkozy he is still here for another year and protectionists are always up for election. The question is whether they will get elected and actually do what they promise.

http://www.yak.ru/ENG/PROD/new_130.php

http://www.military-today.com/aircraft/l15.htm

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/yak/

Please do not use vulgar words in your responses as I have refrained from doing so

 

[Armand2REP]

They look similar because Yakolev was paid to consult on it and that they both serve the same purpose. Yakolev's official line is that it was a Chinese project with consultation. ( To claim otherwise they would need to reverse their previous statements which would tarnish their reliability)

The L-15 was a separate project from the YAK 130. The Italian M346 Master is a development of the Yak 130.

A clone is a knockoff: an unauthorized copy or imitation. ( I assume this is the definition you had in mind) In this case your claims are false.

Yakolev willing consulted on the project and was paid likely handsomely. When you willing give away trade designs you have no right to protest when it is implemented. Companies don't shout "clone" every single time a competitor designs something similar without some kind of actual proof other wise everyone would be in court all the time. They do not shout clone just because internet warriors claim it is so.

I define it as the Russians do...

At the 2009 Dubai Airshow, an official from Rosoboronexport, Russia's state arms export agency, accused China of stealing the designs for the Su-27 (J-11B) and called China's L-15 trainer jet a cheap copy of Russia's Yak-130.

Moreover, Russian officials say, China is doing it by intellectual theft.

"Everyone in the defense industry should be concerned about the Chinese push into the market," he said.

In China, said Dean Cheng of the Washington-based Heritage Foundation, "R&D does not stand for 'research and development,' but rather 'receive and duplicate.'"

http://defensenews.com/blogs/farnbo...-fears-competition-from-chinese-fighter-jets/

There are also significant differences between the L 15 and Yak 130. here are some

We are supposed to believe those figures when it is running on Ukraine turbofans?

Not taking into account avionics which are a unknown the L 15 has significantly superior performance capabilities when compared to the Yak 130.

They run on the same AI-222 engines. Whoever posted that wiki tripe is hoping for Progress to finally make the next development of AI-222. Sorry to tell you they haven't and are so broke are not likely to.

If you want to judge something to be a clone simply due to looks that is your choice. Fortunately copyright infringement requires more than simply a external aesthetic similarity.

Russians are calling foul and they are the ones who decide to challenge it.

As for Sarkozy he is still here for another year and protectionists are always up for election. The question is whether they will get elected and actually do what they promise.

Considering the protectionist on the ballet will be Segolene Royal, there isn't much question who will win considering UMP numbers.

Please do not use vulgar words in your responses as I have refrained from doing so

What vulgar words are those?

 

[badguy2000]

Armand I wish you would stop using numbers you pull out of thin air. Do some research first. The entire European union exported only 112 billion dollars worth of products to China in 2009.

While France is a important trade partner to China it is not even in the top ten as trade partners being less than even Malaysia.

The 7 billion dollars a year deficit is also dwarfed by the 183 billion a year surplus China receives.

The entire Three Gorges Dam cost 26 billion dollars which mostly went to construction.( where you got 100 billion dollars from I really don't know) France is not the only country that makes large generators and many other countries would have jumped at the opportunity to make money. That you even brought up the point is moot as the Dam already runs at full capacity and has all generators already installed. How exactly will France force China to change generators?

Redesigning airliners and helicopters is not cheap but China certainly has money to do so. Case in point is the AC 313. China makes the Helicopter and America supplies the engines so France is not in the loop. If France does not supply engines then America, Russia, Ukraine, and etc would. Please stop over hyping Frances importance to China. France is important but not irreplaceable for China.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AC0YG20101113

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/creating-opportunities/bilateral-relations/countries/china/

http://www.ceibs.edu/bmt/images/20081103/13527.pdf

http://www.threegorgesprobe.org/pi/documents/three_gorges/who.html#brazil

http://www.uschina.org/statistics/tradetable.html

Unless you can back your claims with reliable sources instead of your own wish full thinking then your arguments will be faulted to begin with. Making up wildly hyperbolic numbers decreases your validity and is also a bad habit.

Armand is a frog of well.

CHina's power-generator industry was not so advanced when 3 Dorges Dam was built over one decade ago. So, China imported foregin power generator at that time.

Now, CHina is already the pioneer of power-generator industry . CHina's "smart grid" and new generation ultra supercritical generator tech both lead the whole world.

that is why India order billions of power generators from China, instead of France now.

as for generator-manufacturing, French companies are being asskicked by CHinese companies all over the world ,from CHinese market to indian market.

http://www.rediff.com/business/report/india-china-trade-volume-crosses-usd-60-bn/20110127.htm
India-China bilateral trade in 2010 surpassed $60 billion target at $61.7 billion, driven by the surge in Indian imports of Chinese telecom and power generation machinery to aid the country's infrastructure expansion.