'We will execute your daughter and there's nothing you can do'

[Samudra]

The Islam of Razing temples and looting is not the Islam which was practiced by the Prophet and His companions, here is an excerpt I had saved long ago on as I found it very different from the current Islam.

My friend. This is an interesting debate and my post would probably derail it. If you believe it does remove it or if you choose to - move it. In my personal view the Islam of Razing temples has its origins directly in the Islam practised by Prophet Mohammad who had his men barge into another mans place of worship and destroy his Gods at the Kaaba. If the claim is that Kaaba was taken over by Prophet because it was originally a place of worship for Islam before Mohammad etc then the argument gives crediblity to people like Advani. Afterall it's Advani's case that there was a temple which Babar destroyed and built a mosque on.

I find it hard to distinguish between the argument of Advani and Mohammad except for the fact that Mohammad claimed divine origins for his deeds.

This is where I believe Muslims need to study Islam - the religion itself, within the context of history. It would entail the studying of Mohammad minus his claims to divinity. It would entail the breakdown of notions that are fundamental to the Islamic belief systems. Salman Rushdie attempted exactly this in this Satanic Verses.

 

[ahmedsid]

My friend. This is an interesting debate and my post would probably derail it. If you believe it does remove it or if you choose to - move it. In my personal view the Islam of Razing temples has its origins directly in the Islam practised by Prophet Mohammad who had his men barge into another mans place of worship and destroy his Gods at the Kaaba. If the claim is that Kaaba was taken over by Prophet because it was originally a place of worship for Islam before Mohammad etc then the argument gives crediblity to people like Advani. Afterall it's Advani's case that there was a temple which Babar destroyed and built a mosque on.

I find it hard to distinguish between the argument of Advani and Mohammad except for the fact that Mohammad claimed divine origins for his deeds.

This is where I believe Muslims need to study Islam - the religion itself, within the context of history. It would entail the studying of Mohammad minus his claims to divinity. It would entail the breakdown of notions that are fundamental to the Islamic belief systems. Salman Rushdie attempted exactly this in this Satanic Verses.

I knew someone would bring this up, and Yes you are right, it was wrong when looked upon from the part of the Pagan population of Mecca. But do you know that the Prophet entered the city of Mecca without a drop of blood being spilt? Did you know that the people welcomed him there? Did you know that the common folks were tired and sick of Female Infanticide and various other Mind numbing traditions that they were ready to accept the coming of the Prophet PbuH? Frankly, when the Prophet entered Mecca, there was no opposition to him and the population were ready to be brought into the Islamic fold, and the Destruction of the 300+ Idols were with their tacit approval. The very Fact that there was No Riots/Bloodshed and Confusion quashes your very theory of Comaparing the Prophet PBUH with Advaniji. One more thing, the population were not Seiged, or Warred upon incessantly, they came into their own.

And Please, Comparision between Advanji and the Prophet? LOL man thats hilarious! One is a flip flopper, who wants to build Ram temple in ayodhya only when Elections approach and feels Jinnahji is SECULAR! hahahah while the Other was even Admired By Gandhiji, our very own Bapu and adjudged among the most influential people ever etc etc!

Lastly, If the Temple in Ayodhya was converted to a Mosque and it was clearly visible, I would be the first person to support its conversion back. But you do know that the Kaaba existed in its form for many many years, and was the focal point of arabia. If we go on, you might bring up the argument that the Taj Mahal was a Temple converted into a mausoleum, which I frankly don't know!

Now Please Back on core Topic --> Your points werent that Off Topic, and besides if I delete it, it wouldn't be fair

 

[S.A.T.A]

infact Muhammad may even have allowed the pagan goddess cult that was prevalent among the Kuraish tribesmen at time to continue.As a matter of fact the term "satanic Verses,refers to verses in the revelation where Muhammad is told by Gabriel that he has done right by allowing the Kuraish to worship their three Principal goddesses...

Later redactors have claimed that those verses uttered by Muhammad where forced by the Satan and that Muhammad had retracted those verses......

The controversy over the satanic verses still remain,however it might conceivable that Muhammad was practical enough to allow those who wanted to continue the old ways of life,to do so uninterrupted.

 

[ahmedsid]

infact Muhammad may even have allowed the pagan goddess cult that was prevalent among the Kuraish tribesmen at time to continue.As a matter of fact the term "satanic Verses,refers to verses in the revelation where Muhammad is told by Gabriel that he has done right by allowing the Kuraish to worship their three Principal goddesses...

Later redactors have claimed that those verses uttered by Muhammad where forced by the Satan and that Muhammad had retracted those verses......

The controversy over the satanic verses still remain,however it might conceivable that Muhammad was practical enough to allow those who wanted to continue the old ways of life,to do so uninterrupted.

I too have read about the so called Satanic Verses. But sadly, my knowledge about it is not that good. The best thing I love about Islam is the staunch Monotheism factor. In fact, People from all religions I know, commended Islam on it.

If we look back through History, we can see that Jews were safe only at 2 or 3 or 4 points in recent times. One was in India, and the other in Arabia under the Prophet, and then in Jerusalem under the Saracens.

Lastly, let me tell you, that we Humans dont need much to Hate or be Prejudiced about a Fellow Human being. I can give you thousands of reasons to Love Mother Theresa, but then the Same me can give you thousand more reasons to Hate her! Lets see facts for facts, and Adjudge this Barbaric Act in Iran as a War against Humanity, against Justice, Against God Himself.

This is just one instance, all around the world, Women face much much more. Under the Taliban in Afghanistan, it was Unspeakable! Through ages, women have been stoned, burned and what not! The witch hunts and Inquisition were again unfathomable! When will this stop?

This will stop the day, we stop classifying Ourselves into Religions and Women and Men and what not and Start Believing in Humanity.Start Believing that the Pain I feel, is same as the pain you feel. The Hunger you feel is the Same I feel. The love you Feel is the Same I feel.

 

[Shiny Capstar]

infact Muhammad may even have allowed the pagan goddess cult that was prevalent among the Kuraish tribesmen at time to continue.As a matter of fact the term "satanic Verses,refers to verses in the revelation where Muhammad is told by Gabriel that he has done right by allowing the Kuraish to worship their three Principal goddesses...

Later redactors have claimed that those verses uttered by Muhammad where forced by the Satan and that Muhammad had retracted those verses......

The controversy over the satanic verses still remain,however it might conceivable that Muhammad was practical enough to allow those who wanted to continue the old ways of life,to do so uninterrupted.

I do not want to offend anyone but the 'satanic verses' were pure politics. Nothing to do with Satan forcing Muhammad to do anything.

 

[ahmedsid]

I do not want to offend anyone but the 'satanic verses' were pure politics. Nothing to do with Satan forcing Muhammad to do anything.

Like Mohammed PBUH said "To Each his Own" lol You are entitled to your views

 

[Shiny Capstar]

Like Mohammed PBUH said "To Each his Own" lol You are entitled to your views

Just saying it like I see it.

No surprise that I am not religious, I believe it a creator of the universe. And that it was a being, but in my view a scientist of sorts. But anyway I must avoid getting into a religious debate, I have a knack of offending every religious person I get into a debate on this subject with.

 

[ahmedsid]

Just saying it like I see it.

No surprise that I am not religious, I believe it a creator of the universe. And that it was a being, but in my view a scientist of sorts. But anyway I must avoid getting into a religious debate, I have a knack of offending every religious person I get into a debate on this subject with.

You didnt offend me, I might be Religious, but its limited to myself, I see myself First as Human being, of flesh and blood and I see you as one too. I know you and I feel the same pain, and the same joy. Hence you and me cant be different, howmuch ever our thought Differs. God Speed.

 

[Shiny Capstar]

You didnt offend me, I might be Religious, but its limited to myself, I see myself First as Human being, of flesh and blood and I see you as one too. I know you and I feel the same pain, and the same joy. Hence you and me cant be different, howmuch ever our thought Differs. God Speed.

Its probably because the people I get into debates like that with are those who try and shove religion into my face, like the bloody morons who come round my door trying to convert me *grumble grumble* (Even though it gives me a chance to try out ever more ingenious methods of getting rid of them)

Nice to know that you are tolerant of other's beliefs, thank you. I always tolerate those who tolerate me. Just those that don't will get a mouthful.

 

[Auberon]

I knew someone would bring this up, and Yes you are right, it was wrong when looked upon from the part of the Pagan population of Mecca. But do you know that the Prophet entered the city of Mecca without a drop of blood being spilt? Did you know that the people welcomed him there? Did you know that the common folks were tired and sick of Female Infanticide and various other Mind numbing traditions that they were ready to accept the coming of the Prophet PbuH? Frankly, when the Prophet entered Mecca, there was no opposition to him and the population were ready to be brought into the Islamic fold, and the Destruction of the 300+ Idols were with their tacit approval.

Just for the sake of curiosity Ahmed, what is the historical source you quote this from?

Lastly, If the Temple in Ayodhya was converted to a Mosque and it was clearly visible, I would be the first person to support its conversion back.

An exceptionally dumb thing to do, my friend! You ll open a can of worms and God knows how many other religious places converted into mosques might be razed citing this as an example.

 

[ahmedsid]

Just for the sake of curiosity Ahmed, what is the historical source you quote this from?



An exceptionally dumb thing to do, my friend! You ll open a can of worms and God knows how many other religious places converted into mosques might be razed citing this as an example.

If it wouldnt bother you, do read up on how the Prophet returned to Mecca after the Decline of the Quraish, and after he decided to return to perform the pilgrimage.

Auberon, I meant, that If the Temple had not been demolished and that It was just converted, like the Kaaba then i would support it. I know Many sadistic muslim rulers demolished temples In India, and this might be one of them, we dont know for sure do we? And lets not bring in Temples/Mosques into this discussion, its Off topic.

 

[ahmedsid]

Just for the sake of curiosity Ahmed, what is the historical source you quote this from?



An exceptionally dumb thing to do, my friend! You ll open a can of worms and God knows how many other religious places converted into mosques might be razed citing this as an example.

If it wouldnt bother you, do read up on how the Prophet returned to Mecca after the Decline of the Quraish, and after he decided to return to perform the pilgrimage.

Auberon, I meant, that If the Temple had not been demolished and that It was just converted, like the Kaaba then i would support it. I know Many sadistic muslim rulers demolished temples In India, and this might be one of them, we dont know for sure do we? And lets not bring in Temples/Mosques into this discussion, its Off topic.

 

[ahmedsid]

I just dug out the first reference I could get, and this is the same version you will find elsewhere too.

Entry Into Mecca

 

[ahmedsid]

now back on topic please- iran is the most barbarous place on earth!

 

[Samudra]

I knew someone would bring this up, and Yes you are right, it was wrong when looked upon from the part of the Pagan population of Mecca. But do you know that the Prophet entered the city of Mecca without a drop of blood being spilt? Did you know that the people welcomed him there?

But? Bhai - why do we even want to say 'but'?

So long as the last human on earth - even one individual - was alive or died as a believer in one of the 300 odd idols Mohammad personally shattered to pieces what Mohammad did was morally wrong. Mohammad did not respect the religion and faith of those believers. Instead the Prophet set a wrong example by destroying and occupying another religions place of worship with an unverified ownership claim. A claim that rests on the foundations of scientifically laughable claims such as Adam building the place et - but thats judging Mohammad with the modern perspective and a slippery slope that is mortally dangerous to any faith system.The Islamic rulers that followed the Prophet simply followed in his footsteps.

No amount of goodwill the Arabs displayed for the Prophet nor the benefits accrued to the society can justify the act of occupation of another mans holy place of worship and pilgrimage. If we are indeed willing to go down that path and concede the right to destory very important places of worship then the Advanis of the world are sure to find plenty of excuses.

It is important to concede the errors on the part of Islam too. This is a fundamental error of Islam, an error that emerged as the fountainhead of so much hatred beginning in the times of the Prophet himself. It would be unfair for anybody to have any issue with Islam and it's beautifully simple concept of divinity so long as Islam keeps to itself. But the origins of Islam is so unimaginably intertwinted with the extermination of many faith systems with the Prophet himself partaking in atleast one of the first such acts.

iran is the most barbarous place on earth!

The rulers are. I have no clue about the people but as an economy Iran has tremendous potential. Many times more than those worthless place they call Dubai!

 

[Auberon]

If it wouldnt bother you, do read up on how the Prophet returned to Mecca after the Decline of the Quraish, and after he decided to return to perform the pilgrimage.

So the Koran is your historical source, is that correct? Not flamebaiting here, just curious.

Auberon, I meant, that If the Temple had not been demolished and that It was just converted, like the Kaaba then i would support it. I know Many sadistic muslim rulers demolished temples In India, and this might be one of them, we dont know for sure do we? And lets not bring in Temples/Mosques into this discussion, its Off topic.

Sure mate, you are the one who did it, not me.

 

[EnlightenedMonk]

Races and Stuff

I'm not the least bit surprised... The Arabs are known to be such heartless people (I do consider Iran as an Arab nation even though technically they're not)

 

[Flint]

I'm not the least bit surprised... The Arabs are known to be such heartless people (I do consider Iran as an Arab nation even though technically they're not)

Erm, what is that supposed to mean? Either they're arabs or they're not. What you consider them to be doesn't change reality.

 

[Auberon]

Erm, what is that supposed to mean? Either they're arabs or they're not. What you consider them to be doesn't change reality.

Erm not exactly, for ex. some consider the Lebanese Arab while other Phoenecian. Some consider Egyptians Arab but others don't, so yes Flint, reality is subjective to your consideration.

 

[Flint]

Erm not exactly, for ex. some consider the Lebanese Arab while other Phoenecian. Some consider Egyptians Arab but others don't, so yes Flint, reality is subjective to your consideration.

Well, nobody considers Iranians arab, least of all the Iranians themselves, so the subjective consideration ends there. You'd probably end up offending an Iranian if you called him arab.