VSHORAD Tender for Air Defence

[Kunal Biswas]

Some Information about Igla -S >>

 

[sayareakd]

why can't drdo complete the trishul project?

it was completed by the tech become outdated so it didnt go into production. Parts of the missile tech would be used in future missiles.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, I doubt the tech is outdated not all of it..

Flycatcher Radar is very effective system..

it was completed by the tech become outdated so it didnt go into production. Parts of the missile tech would be used in future missiles.

 

[sayareakd]

Sir, I doubt the tech is outdated not all of it..

Flycatcher Radar is very effective system..

Sir i said things will be used by India in future missile, BTW i head that they have few of the Trishul system ready.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

may be they can put an aesa version of flycatcher radar and complete the trishul project since i heard there is nothing wrong with the missile itself and we already have developed iir,rf seekers

 

[Kunal Biswas]

They can built that and can replace old OSA-AKM system..

Army already looking for replacement..

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

US Stinger offer puts brakes on Indian Army's VSHORADS selection
Rahul Bedi, New Delhi 28 November 2013

LINK: janes.com/article/30986/us-stinger-offer-puts-brakes-on-indian-army-s-vshorads-selection

The Indian Army's long-delayed USD3-5 billion procurement of man-portable very short range defence systems (VSHORADS) is deadlocked following a recent US proposal to supply the Raytheon FIM-92 Stinger missile system via the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route.

Official sources said the US offer in September 2013 to provide Stinger systems had stalled the Ministry of Defence's (MoD's) selection from one of three vendors competing for the 2010 VSHORADS tender.

The US offer followed the 26 September meeting in Washington between Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and US President Barack Obama.

India's MoD is known to favour acquiring US materiel under the FMS programme, having procured more than USD 8 billion worth of equipment through it since 2002.

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

FIM-92 Stinger (USA)

Designer: General Dynamics
Designed 1967
Manufacturer: Raytheon Missile Systems
Unit cost: U.S.$38,000
Produced: 1978

Variants: FIM-92A, FIM-92B, FIM-92C, FIM-92D, FIM-92
Weight: 33.5 lb , 15.19 kg
Length: 1.52 m
Diameter: 2.76 in
Crew: 1
Effective range : 4.8 kilometres (3.0 mi) (FIM-92C Stinger-RMP Block II)

Engine: Solid rocket motor
Guidance system: Infrared homing
Launch platform: MANPADS, M6 Linebacker, Eurocopter Tiger, AN/TWQ-1 Avenger, MQ-1 Predator, AH-64 Apache, T-129 ATAK

Other Countries
1. Turkey: Stingers made under license by Roketsan.
2. Switzerland: Stingers made under license.
3. Germany: Stingers made under license by EADS

Source: Wikipedia

 

[Kunal Biswas]

US gov supplying all garbage with a lame friendly tag over FMS ..

M4 supplied by Colt proving utter garbage, Continual firing causing jamming and to make a field repair it had to be striped in firefight ..

Not my words but PARA officers ..

 

[sydsnyper]

But @Kunal Sir... the US military and whoever I talk to about the M4 swear by it. In fact even the israeli's use M4. Is it possible we were just sent a poorly manufactured version of the product... Could it be because we have not done the rigorous cleaning as the M16 family of firearms have always required.

I learnt about another thread on this forum about the beretta MX4 rifles procured by CRPF turned out to be rusty and defective.

US gov supplying all garbage with a lame friendly tag over FMS ..

M4 supplied by Colt proving utter garbage, Continual firing causing jamming and to make a field repair it had to be striped in firefight ..

Not my words but PARA officers ..

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

But @Kunal Sir... the US military and whoever I talk to about the M4 swear by it. In fact even the israeli's use M4. Is it possible we were just sent a poorly manufactured version of the product... Could it be because we have not done the rigorous cleaning as the M16 family of firearms have always required.

I learnt about another thread on this forum about the beretta MX4 rifles procured by CRPF turned out to be rusty and defective.

sorry to hear that let the generals learn the hard way then only they will start trusting our indigenous weapons the navy's way is the best way

 

[TrueSpirit1]

@Kunal Biswas @sayareakd

Apart from being slightly lighter, what extra advantage do Stinger provides over Igla-S ? From the specs, Igla-S seems to be lot better placed & am sure, would be lot more cheaper & rugged.

But. what about reliability & kill-ratio ?

All MANPAD's are based on some sort of infrared seeker (including the famed Stinger), so what is so special about MANPAD technology that only few nations have successful MANPAD programs ? Where did Trishul fail exactly ? Was Trishul capable of replacing Igla's in foreseeable future ?

Are there challenges in developing/acquiring tech. for suppressing background clutter, Anti-jamming characteristics, etc. ? Anyway, they do not come equipped with any "friend-or-foe" identification systems, right ? So, should have been the simplest of projects to complete. OTOH, we do possess IRBM/ICBM tech. but no indigenous MANPAD' systems.

 

[Shirman]

Raytheon Stinger missile completes Finnish VSHORADS field trials - Army Technology

Raytheon Stinger missile completes Finnish VSHORADS field trials
10 September 2013

Raytheon's Stinger missile has successfully completed a series of very short-range air defence system (SHORADS) field trials in Finland.
Around six Finnish gunners were trained on three missile system tracking trainers during the trials, with each successfully simulating tracking and engaging targets flown by the Finnish Army Materiel Command.
The targets included an F/A-18 Super Hornet aircraft, NH-90 tactical transport helicopter (TTH) and Banshee medium speed aerial target system.
Raytheon Missile Systems Stinger programme director, Mark Nicol, said the trials confirm that the development of a man-portable air-defence system (MANPADS) that can truly outperform Stinger is yet to take place.
"We have taken a system that has proven itself time and time again in critical combat situations and have continually evolved the technology," Nicol said.
"The result is a system that is proven and designed for today's soldier in current and future conflicts."
Raytheon Missile Systems Land Combat product line vice-president, Michelle Lohmeier, said: "As our international allies look to deploy highly advanced defence postures with proven systems, Stinger will continue to remain a major player in the ground-based air defence arena."
The missile has already demonstrated its ability to successfully engage both rotary and fixed-wing aircraft and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) during multiple test flights and in the battlefield.
Manufactured under license from EADS, FIM-92 Stinger is a portable infrared homing surface-to-air missile (SAM), designed to provide higher precision guidance against modern threats, including fighter aircraft, attack helicopters, UAVs and cruise missiles.
Classified as a MANPADS, the reliable system requires no regular scheduled maintenance by the operator, and can engage a target with one shot unlike other SHORAD missiles.
Having entered into service in 1981, the missile is currently in use with all four US military services and 18 international countries worldwide.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Colt M4 is a would class firearm if maintained properly but in Indian conditions and our training they are not proving their worth, TAR-21 works better its bolt carrier assembly is AK influenced so does INSAS ..

I doubt very much that American design firearm will ever work with our ways which of-course some people in MOD and hi brass wont bother to hear abt ..

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MANPADs are effective against low flying aircrafts, though can be deflected if it has flairs, But again MANPADS pose serious danger and can make air denial space like what Pakistani forces were able to do in Kargil ..

Trishul was small range vehicle mounted SAM not MANPADs, Halting the program is cost Navy today as they are now run out of barrak SAMs and there are no alternative ..

Foreign Russian lobby is strong in India, Making our own MANPADs is not at all difficult but Army never placed any requirement for indigenous manufacturing and rely on Imports, Out of 10 Igla firing only 3 hits are always scored on targets same for most Russian made SAMs, BUT made in India electronics and SAMs are not like that ..

But @Kunal Sir... the US military and whoever I talk to about the M4 swear by it. In fact even the israeli's use M4.

@Kunal Biswas @sayareakd

All MANPAD's are based on some sort of infrared seeker (including the famed Stinger), so what is so special about MANPAD technology that only few nations have successful MANPAD programs ? Where did Trishul fail exactly ? Was Trishul capable of replacing Igla's in foreseeable future ?.

 

[Immanuel]

US gov supplying all garbage with a lame friendly tag over FMS ..

M4 supplied by Colt proving utter garbage, Continual firing causing jamming and to make a field repair it had to be striped in firefight ..

Not my words but PARA officers ..

I am not sure on how seriously the IA takes cleaning of weapons, INSAS was blamed to have similar issues initially as well. Later they find out a little bit of cleaning once in a while goes a long way.

Nice video of how the Colt can be reliable, just comes down to proper usage. Sure its not the most reliable AR out there but IA again shot itself in the foot by going for the Colt. Daniel Defence or FN M-4s would have been better choices at roughly similar prices. HK416 is far more expensive. Even US army issued its latest M-4 contract to Remington

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHwoZ6SS_pY

 

[cobra commando]

VSHORADS Decision This
Year?


VSHORADS Decision This Year? - SP's Land Forces

 

[Archer]

I am not sure on how seriously the IA takes cleaning of weapons, INSAS was blamed to have similar issues initially as well. Later they find out a little bit of cleaning once in a while goes a long way.

Nice video of how the Colt can be reliable, just comes down to proper usage. Sure its not the most reliable AR out there but IA again shot itself in the foot by going for the Colt. Daniel Defence or FN M-4s would have been better choices at roughly similar prices. HK416 is far more expensive. Even US army issued its latest M-4 contract to Remington

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHwoZ6SS_pY

SCAR vs. M4 vs. HK416 vs. XM8 Dust Tests Released - M4 Loses Badly - THR

 

[Immanuel]

^^^^

Colt M-4 is not the gold standard of M-4s, the latest M-4s ordered by the US are not from Colt rather from Remington or FN. M-4s made by Daniel Defence, LWRC would quite easily stand up to the challenge against the HK416. HK416 a while ago was among the best, but these days, they are cheaper alternatives from FN or Daniel Defence.

Now, if M-4s from Colt were ordered then chances are they are not as reliable.

 

[Twinblade]

Igla-S is in rough waters for triservice VSHORADS procurement.
Russian no-show at VSHORAD trials | StratPost

Several rounds of trials have been carried out, so far. In May 2012, trials were held at the Mahajan range, in which the Russians managed to score only a single hit out of four. Again during sea trials, the Russian system managed only a single hit out of two. Rosoboronexport was allowed to repeat the Mahajan trials in winter of 2012, in which it managed all four hits. But its sight failed during high altitude trials, following which they were asked to modify their sight's lens, receiver metrics and software.

Having persisted in the competition, they were invited to try again this summer at the Mahajan range.

Indian evaluators asked them to demonstrate firing of their system in high temperatures at Mahajan by August 15 this year, to demonstrate the functionality of the modified sight. As it turned out, everybody except the Russians showed up.

Instead, Rosoboronexport wrote to the Indian evaluators saying that they did not feel it necessary to conduct another demonstration of their system.

 

[SajeevJino]

Army VSHORADS contest nears end​

With systems trials of sighting systems and sensors for the VSHORADS programme complete recently in Bengaluru and Dehradun, the path is presumably clear for the commercial phase of the massive acquisition programme. The $6-billion Indian Army very short range air defence system (VSHORADS) competition, which looks to contract nearly 1,000 launcher systems and over 6,000 missiles. The big-ticket bid is a three-way fight between the French MBDA Mistral, Sweden's Saab RBS 70 NG and Russia's KBM new generation Igla-S. Field evaluation trials of all three VSHORADS platforms were completed in Rajasthan (hot weather trials), Visakhapatnam (coastal environmental trials) and Ladakh (high altitude, cold weather trials) since 2012 and ending early last year. The Army is looking for a system that can be deployed in multiple configurations including man-portable, fitted on a twin-launcher, based on a high-mobility vehicle, ship-based and submarine based. The weapon systems fielded have so far demonstrated several capabilities during trials, including multiple target detection and tracking by day and night, providing target acquisition to the munition, engagement of aerial targets, etc. The VSHORADS programme is seen as a crucial element of the tactical air defence upgrade effort by the Indian Army.

Army VSHORADS contest nears end - SP's Land Forces