USA shows its true colours, sells F16s to Pakistan; Envoy summoned

[Razor]

The lobby did succeed in gaining enough Congressmen on their side to stall the deal, but just a few hours ago I read in the news that Obama has used a special presidential executive provision that allows him to override all objections raised by Congress, it's some sort of 'national security' clause in their constitution that this negro has exploited.

And you think the congress didn't know ahead of time that he'll use it.
It's well planned and orchestrated.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

And you think the congress didn't know ahead of time that he'll use it.
It's well planned and orchestrated.

It might be orchestrated, I'm not denying that. In a presidential form of government, the president has sweeping powers when it comes to foreign policy. I was only responding to the specific charge that the Indian lobby didn't do anything. It did do something but it was not enough to achieve any results. With that context we need to contemplate what purpose it serves for us to have a lobby if the president himself is hostile to our nation?

 

[Razor]

It might be orchestrated, I'm not denying that. In a presidential form of government, the president has sweeping powers when it comes to foreign policy. I was only responding to the specific charge that the Indian lobby didn't do anything. It did do something but it was not enough to achieve any results. With that context we need to contemplate what purpose it serves for us to have a lobby if the president himself is hostile to our nation?

What you said may be right, w/ reg to Indian lobby.
But that doesn't mean lobbies are ineffective; case in point AIPAC.
Also I don't think it is as simply as the president being an independent person and taking his own decisions. Most lobby groups have contact with the potus, and they "advise" him on his decisions.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

What you said may be right, w/ reg to Indian lobby.
But that doesn't mean lobbies are ineffective; case in point AIPAC.
Also I don't think it is as simply as the president being an independent person and taking his own decisions. Most lobby groups have contact with the potus, and they "advise" him on his decisions.

Agreed. I was only telling the dude that our lobby tried and was overridden by the president.

 

[Kshatriya87]

One fails to understand the rationale behind Modi GoI insistence on developing better relations with the Yankees, given the fact that they clearly are not our partners or allies. They are the hands which feed Pakistan, the snake.

Americans are nobody's allies. But having someone like them on our side when it comes to a warlike situation with China would help a lot.

Just like America, India has been playing double games as well. We have been holding joint exercises with US navy to counter China and then holding joint exercises with China as well. India needs to play these kind of politics to keep certain nations in check.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

I think it still needs to be passed by the Congress.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Amid Pakistan row, India considers proposal to manufacture F-16 fighter jets under 'Make in India'

NEW DELHI: Even as controversy has erupted on the transfer of eight F 16s to Pakistan by the US, Delhi has been considering a proposal to manufacture thefighter jets under the 'Make in India' initiative.

In several recent meetings, including a high-level interaction in November last year in Washington, the aircraft have been offered for local production - both to meet Indian requirements and for exports.

The Lockheed Martin (LM) manufactured F 16 is one of the several fighters that has been proposed to be manufactured in India and is being actively pushed by Washington, senior officials told ET. It is also understood that LM had even raised the possibility of local manufacture during the meeting of one of its top executives with Prime Minister Narendra Modi last year.

India has showed its displeasure at the recent decision by Washington to transfer eight of the Block 52 variants of the fighter to Pakistan. It is still unclear on what impact this would have on proposals to manufacture US origin jets in India - defence giant Boeing has also shown keen interest in building F/A 18 Super Hornet fighters under the Make in Indiaplan.

The offer to make the F 16 in India was for a more advanced variant of the fighter that is being sold to Pakistan and was termed as the F 16 IN Super Viper. The aircraft was in contention of the now scrapped medium multirole combat aircraft contract for the Indian air force but was disqualified on technical grounds.

Besides the F/A 18 Super Hornet and the F 16IN Super Viper, the Indian government is considering at least two more proposals to make fighter jets in India. One offer on the table is from Sweden's SAAB to transfer the Gripen fighter line to India. Another is a proposal by Airbus to create a 'Eurofighter City' in India that would produce its Eurofighter jet and generate thousands of jobs.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-under-make-in-india/articleshow/50990890.cms

Is someone playing a prank on us? US will manufacture F16 in India and send them to Pakistan?

 

[airtel]

just 8 F-16 can not do anything Against Indian Air-force ..... ..........we should consider this proposal of making F-16/F-18 in India ,also that euro-fighter city is a cool offer ................but we should not buy these ............they can invest in India .........& reduce their manufacturing cost ............that would be Good for Indian private companies too .
and we can use some of their technologies in AMCA .
the American defence sector creates so many jobs in USA , that will be shifted to India .

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

just 8 F-16 can not do anything Against Indian Air-force ..... ..........we should consider this proposal of making F-16/F-18 in India ,also that euro-fighter city is a cool offer ................but we should not buy these ............they can invest in India .........& reduce their manufacturing cost ............that would be Good for Indian private companies too .
and we can use some of their technologies in AMCA .
the American defence sector creates so many jobs in USA , that will be shifted to India .

We will look like idiots when Pakistani F16 engage in fights with Indian F16


No problem with making (non-US) planes in India but we should not buy these. Still, we can skip this plane as allowing to use our cheap resources to build cheap planes is like subsidizing US military. It's not in our interest to subsidize them as of now as none of our strategic interests overlap. Even on the Syria issue, we are getting oil from them but the US wants to invade and destroy that country. It was the same with Iraq. It was a regime that was friendly to us, gave us cheap oil, kept millions of Sunnis under control. US invaded it and messed our strategic calculus.

We can build European planes, Japanese U2 and many other things but we shouldn't subsidize USA right now. Let them incur high costs for their potential invasion of Syria.

 

[spikey360]

Americans are nobody's allies. But having someone like them on our side when it comes to a warlike situation with China would help a lot.

Just like America, India has been playing double games as well. We have been holding joint exercises with US navy to counter China and then holding joint exercises with China as well. India needs to play these kind of politics to keep certain nations in check.

Which nations? Pakistan? China? USA? Makes little sense to engage with all of them to keep all of them in check.
Lack of guts while handling America can be lethal.
They are like lead, slow poison over long time, leads to organ failure.

 

[Bahamut]

Which nations? Pakistan? China? USA? Makes little sense to engage with all of them to keep all of them in check.
Lack of guts while handling America can be lethal.
They are like lead, slow poison over long time, leads to organ failure.

I say let China and US fight each other ,do trade and talk with both and tell them clearly that Indian Ocean Region is our area,you do not mess with us and we do not contain you .Just do not take side in this containment war .

 

[roma]

Amid Pakistan row, India considers proposal to manufacture F-16 fighter jets under 'Make in India'

The offer to make the F 16 in India was for a more advanced variant of the fighter that is being sold to Pakistan and was termed as the F 16 IN Super Viper. The aircraft was in contention of the now scrapped medium multirole combat aircraft contract for the Indian air force but was disqualified on technical grounds.

Besides the F/A 18 Super Hornet and the F 16IN Super Viper, the Indian government is considering at least two more proposals to make fighter jets in

Another is a proposal by Airbus to create a 'Eurofighter City' in India that would produce its Eurofighter jet and generate thousands of jobs.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-under-make-in-india/articleshow/50990890.cms

that is a great post you have selected for us , thanks, and immly after writing this i am gonna give it the like it deserves

hahahahahaha ...packland is going to learn the hard way !
this shows the pulling power of the india system
and usa actually prefers us ....read on ...........

the euro-city concept is a magnificent proposal ...of course a hard look at the details , fine print and legal clauses is most necessary ....but the overall idea is great and a hard reality to anyone who thinks that india was caught in a corner with no options ....besides the transfer and superior tech, it will also provide multiple jobs !

it also shows that we shouldn't be too quick to be negative to the usa although the post i wrote earlier still stands ....i.e take time to evaluate them

here they are saying they we'il give pack 8 f16 and will transfer tech to india for 800 ( or more ) with higher tech and other goodies ( possibly TOT etc et ) ....again the details holds the clue as to accept or not

but this offer , if real , blasts the idea of usa duplicity , at least in this particular instance , the clear preference is for india , while giving pack some face-saving way out

Amid Pakistan row, India considers proposal to manufacture F-16 fighter jets under 'Make in India'
Is someone playing a prank on us? US will manufacture F16 in India and send them to Pakistan?

i dont think there is any prank .....the f16's to pack will be direct transfer from usa to packland , while the higher quality make in india will be made in india and then commissioned into IAF .....two separate products , ours higher quality and separate delivery routes, so no confusion and thus no prank imho

We will look like idiots when Pakistani F16 engage in fights with Indian F16
.

i think it's the other way ,

they will look fools if they don't use theirs for strictly weeding out the talebs in NWFP-FATA areas ..........if they use theirs to confront ours , they will learn the hard way that they have the inferior stuff .......plus ours will probably cost less

i dont think even packs are that stupid as to try ...


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[A chauhan]

It's not as confusing as it appears, IMO if Rafael deal doesn't work we should order more and more LCAs to keep squadron numbers at safe level, while pour all the money kept for MMRCA into the LCA+AMCA projects.

F16 Super Viper Make in India doesn't appear attractive to me.

 

[Kshatriya87]

Which nations? Pakistan? China? USA? Makes little sense to engage with all of them to keep all of them in check.
Lack of guts while handling America can be lethal.
They are like lead, slow poison over long time, leads to organ failure.

No need to engage with other countries to keep pakistan in check. We can handle them easily. For USA & China, yes. You probably haven't thought about it, when you do it will make perfect sense as to why we need to engage both sides.

Lack of guts? What guts do you want to show in this situation? You want to attack USA just to make them stop selling a meager number of 8 F-16s to pakis?

 

[mattster]

The US has to throw a bone to Pakistan every once in a while to get their cooperation and a bit of leverage.

Remember that if India and Pakistan ever get into a major skirmish again......the only country that can talk to both parties before everything goes over the brink is the US. Let me tell you that having the US intercede is much better for India than having China involved.

The US needs to stay engaged with Pakistan both because of its involvement in Afghanistan, and also to be able to understand and know who the key players in the Pak military are. Given that they are the only Muslim country with nuclear weapons - it is imperative that the US needs to engage Pak.

Given this reality, the US has to throw a bone to Pak once every 10 years or so. They are never going to transfer state-of-art US tech to Pak because they know it will end up in China. The US-Pak relationship is a love hate relationship that both parties need. Pak needs the US otherwise it is solely dependent of being a China proxy.
I don't think that the Pakistanis have any illusions about their "proxy" relationship with China - it is based purely on the ability to contain India and keep India off-balance in return for measured rewards.....otherwise China has little use for Pakistan. Despite all the BS about their "all-weather" relationship, Pakistan does not want to be totally dependent on China either.

Its surprising that so many in this forum talk about the US using India to contain China. Actually the ultimate in regional containment is China's policy of using Pakistan to contain India.

So India should not over-react to these situations. It may even help India's case if the US has some influence with the Pak establishment.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Let me tell you that having the US intercede is much better for India

Let me tell you that we are capable of handling our problems on our own, also, the US is indulging in a destabilizing role in Asia, don't pat yourself on the back and claim credit for whatever fragile peace that exists in Asia. The reason the very concept of peace is fragile here is because of American policies. You've invaded Afghanistan, you've supported radicalization in madrassas, you've given weapons to terror groups that have hit India, you've poured in massive investment in China. Your banks are funding construction of dams in the disputed POK region despite the dubious legality of the land. These are all problems of your own making so that, one day, people like you can whitewash history and present themselves as a 'solution' to the problem. You are the problem.

No one is buying your snake oil in India any more. Don't coach us on how to respond to global events, we are a sovereign nation, we will respond as we please. You should worry about how unarmed black kids are being slaughtered in your streets by your state machinery instead of lecturing people on another continent about how to run their foreign policy.

 

[Immanuel]

Actually, in the grand scheme of things the 8 F-16s are fodder for Akash and other deployed systems. No need to bicker and understand that super powers (US/Russia) do what they want, whether it's US giving away F-16s to Pak or China getting the Su-35 or a host load of Soviet types without any restrictions (thus being very copy friendly), we need to mind our own business and further our interests. We are capable of having a very deep relations with the US and Russia and let's stick to that in the grand scheme of things US knows Pak can't really fuck with India on any scale.

 

[cannonfodder]

U.S. seeks Congressional nod for financing F-16 sale to Pakistan

After notifying Congress of its intention to sell eight F-16 fighter planes to Pakistan, the Obama administration has quickly moved for Congressional approval for financing the deal under the country’s Foreign Military Financing (FMF) scheme. U.S. administration proposes to pay the bulk of the $699 million cost of the deal while Pakistan is required to pay $200 million.

The administration’s request to Congress is for the first tranche of money, though the exact amount sought was not immediately known. While the notification itself does not need a positive approval from Congress, spending by the administration requires legislative approval, which is not going to come easily.

“While it is my intention at this time to clear the sale of eight F-16 aircraft to Pakistan, I do not plan to support the expenditure of the very limited FMF account to finance this deal, now or in the future,” Senator Bob Corker, chairman of the powerful Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, had said in a letter to Secretary of State John Kerry last week.

Bipartisan resistance
Sources familiar with the developments pointed out that given the resistance being bipartisan — this is not one of the Republicans versus Democrats stalemates that routinely block Obama’s moves — the administration will find it tough to win a vote for financing the deal. Lockheed Martin, the manufacturers of F-16s, continues to lobby hard for the deal with the argument that it will create jobs in America.

“But the argument that American taxpayer cannot finance a deal for arming Pakistan has turned out to be lethal and has taken the administration by surprise,” a source said.

Meanwhile, an official of the U.S. State Department reiterated its commitment to sell F-16s to Pakistan. “We support the proposed sale of eight F-16s to Pakistan to assist Pakistan’s counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations. Pakistan’s current F-16s have proven critical to the success of these operations to date… These operations reduce the ability of militants to use Pakistani territory as a safe haven for terrorism and a base of support for the insurgency in Afghanistan. These operations are in the national interests of Pakistan, the United States, NATO, and in the interest of the region more broadly,” the official said.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In foreign policy no one is no ones friend. Countries make allies according to convenience.
http://idrw.org/u-s-seeks-congressional-nod-for-financing-f-16-sale-to-pakistan/

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

U.S. seeks Congressional nod for financing F-16 sale to Pakistan

After notifying Congress of its intention to sell eight F-16 fighter planes to Pakistan, the Obama administration has quickly moved for Congressional approval for financing the deal under the country’s Foreign Military Financing (FMF) scheme. U.S. administration proposes to pay the bulk of the $699 million cost of the deal while Pakistan is required to pay $200 million.

The administration’s request to Congress is for the first tranche of money, though the exact amount sought was not immediately known. While the notification itself does not need a positive approval from Congress, spending by the administration requires legislative approval, which is not going to come easily.

“While it is my intention at this time to clear the sale of eight F-16 aircraft to Pakistan, I do not plan to support the expenditure of the very limited FMF account to finance this deal, now or in the future,” Senator Bob Corker, chairman of the powerful Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, had said in a letter to Secretary of State John Kerry last week.

Bipartisan resistance
Sources familiar with the developments pointed out that given the resistance being bipartisan — this is not one of the Republicans versus Democrats stalemates that routinely block Obama’s moves — the administration will find it tough to win a vote for financing the deal. Lockheed Martin, the manufacturers of F-16s, continues to lobby hard for the deal with the argument that it will create jobs in America.

“But the argument that American taxpayer cannot finance a deal for arming Pakistan has turned out to be lethal and has taken the administration by surprise,” a source said.

Meanwhile, an official of the U.S. State Department reiterated its commitment to sell F-16s to Pakistan. “We support the proposed sale of eight F-16s to Pakistan to assist Pakistan’s counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations. Pakistan’s current F-16s have proven critical to the success of these operations to date… These operations reduce the ability of militants to use Pakistani territory as a safe haven for terrorism and a base of support for the insurgency in Afghanistan. These operations are in the national interests of Pakistan, the United States, NATO, and in the interest of the region more broadly,” the official said.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In foreign policy no one is no ones friend. Countries make allies according to convenience.
http://idrw.org/u-s-seeks-congressional-nod-for-financing-f-16-sale-to-pakistan/

No one is claiming to be upset because they hoped that US was India's friend. The sale itself is upsetting to our interests. None of us have any delusions of friendship with the US. The objections are very objective and limited to the context of our adversary acquiring more weapons, regardless of who is giving them. Now, people are saying "we are buying weapons too, so what's wrong if Pakistan gets som...", to that I say "whose side are you on?"

 

[cannonfodder]

Never said India should not object. Use max leverage to block the deal. At the end they will look at their interest and we need to move on.

No one is claiming to be upset because they hoped that US was India's friend. The sale itself is upsetting to our interests. None of us have any delusions of friendship with the US. The objections are very objective and limited to the context of our adversary acquiring more weapons, regardless of who is giving them. Now, people are saying "we are buying weapons too, so what's wrong if Pakistan gets som...", to that I say "whose side are you on?"