US offers to co-develop advanced Javelin missile with India

[Kunal Biswas]

There is no NAG man-portable ATGM ..

Anyone would use what is reliable and available in mass ..

what would you chose,and under performing(on comparison)man portable nag(indigenous) or javelin ?

 

[arnabmit]

Was he referring to SAMHO?

Any news of it?

There is no NAG man-portable ATGM ..

Anyone would use what is reliable and available in mass ..

 

[happy]

@Kunal Biswas, @W.G.Ewald and @Neil

You guys have cleared so many of my doubts. Thank you!!

 

[asianobserve]

@ 1:50, can a Javelin be fired over a hill without visual contact of the target?

 

[drkrn]

There is no NAG man-portable ATGM ..

Anyone would use what is reliable and available in mass ..

i heard that it is under development,so asked.

thanks.good to us if army encourages local industry

 

[Twinblade]

i heard that it is under development,so asked.

No clearance granted yet. It would take two and half years from grant of clearance to testing stage (as per Dr Chander). It would then be followed by development trials followed by user trials followed by improvements suggested on basis of feedback and only then would the production commence. Its easily five years away even if the project is approved today.

 

[p2prada]

That didn't happen in the BrahMos - why assume it will happen here?

India lacks tech to build BrahMos engine - Hindustan Times

Oh, God! The same thing over and over and over and over and over again. Brahmos ToT was finished years ago.

JV means full TOT.

Actually it depends on the contract. We currently only have full ToT JVs with the Russians. Maybe with the Israelis here and there like AESA radars and tank electronics. Barak JV won't come with full ToT. The Israelis will keep radar ToT because they won't be made here from earlier reports.

 

[Decklander]

Oh, God! The same thing over and over and over and over and over again. Brahmos ToT was finished years ago.



Actually it depends on the contract. We currently only have full ToT JVs with the Russians. Maybe with the Israelis here and there like AESA radars and tank electronics. Barak JV won't come with full ToT. The Israelis will keep radar ToT because they won't be made here from earlier reports.

When you make a JV by creating a company, that company becomes the owner of all the property and knowledge of that company and its owners own all those things. So if we form a JV with US companies and have that company registered in India, that company will own 100% tech knowledge.

 

[p2prada]

When you make a JV by creating a company, that company becomes the owner of all the property and knowledge of that company and its owners own all those things. So if we form a JV with US companies and have that company registered in India, that company will own 100% tech knowledge.

In the end if we don't manufacture that component in India then the ToT is only on paper. These guys can find enough reasons and red tape to keep Indian entities out of the loop. The JV company has most of the ToT, but a crucial system will be licensed to the company from the parent company instead of having the ToT transferred.

For eg: We can have a tank JV with Germany between Krauss-Mafei and CVRDE, but MTU may say they will only license engine manufacturing to the JV company. On paper it is a JV, but we may be only assembling engines instead of manufacturing them.

In this particular project I don't see that happening simply because it is a small project, but it is a high possibility with larger projects, like the example of the Barak NG JV. We don't make the radar at home, we directly source it from Israel. ToT becomes pointless even if we get it.

 

[Defcon 1]

so spike only favourable considering costs.

and old say when you pay peanuts you get monkeys.if you pay better you get elephants

thanks.

what would you chose,and under performing(on comparison)man portable nag(indigenous) or javelin ?

man portable nag is supposed to be the next stage of development of NAG. When the original one is not ready, how can you talk about the next version?

 

[roma]

many great posts above - from our "back-home" indian members
- thanks for all of them

one thing i would like to point out - we shd differentiate between
the diplomatic and the technical aspects of this offer
if the offer is serious enough - we should firmly indicate to the usa our appreciation
and try to take a gracious stance
and show them some diplomatic "body language " accordingly

when irt comes to the technical aspects we shouldnt be too demanding
but we cant act innocent either
we have to be balanced - middle path

we do have an improving relationship with the most important nation
OTOH where is the 123 deal going ?

 

[debasree]

gd proposal but us is very reluctant for tot we should evaluate carefully..............if yes why not we should not put all eggs in same busket

 

[drkrn]

man portable nag is supposed to be the next stage of development of NAG. When the original one is not ready, how can you talk about the next version?

agni 6 too is supposed to be next stage of development.should we stop discussing??

 

[drkrn]

we do have an improving relationship with the most important nation
OTOH where is the 123 deal going ?

with all the contracts going to france ,russia, and even canada but not america,they should be crying by now

 

[t_co]

Outdated data ..

Unless you can provide more current numbers than that page, we cannot assume that data is outdated.

===========

If you posting post, Be honest in this regard, Avoid trollish intentions..

Again, from the data source:

CLU weight: 6.4kg
LTA + Missile + BCU weight: 16kg - it looks like you're forgetting the 1.3kg cooling unit and 3kg launch tube in your original figures

--------

If its made in India cost are 1/4th of the imported one ..

No deal has been signed yet; from where are you getting these cost estimates?

 

[t_co]

gd proposal but us is very reluctant for tot we should evaluate carefully..............if yes why not we should not put all eggs in same busket

And complicate the IA's supply chain even further?

 

[t_co]

In the end if we don't manufacture that component in India then the ToT is only on paper. These guys can find enough reasons and red tape to keep Indian entities out of the loop. The JV company has most of the ToT, but a crucial system will be licensed to the company from the parent company instead of having the ToT transferred.

For eg: We can have a tank JV with Germany between Krauss-Mafei and CVRDE, but MTU may say they will only license engine manufacturing to the JV company. On paper it is a JV, but we may be only assembling engines instead of manufacturing them.

In this particular project I don't see that happening simply because it is a small project, but it is a high possibility with larger projects, like the example of the Barak NG JV. We don't make the radar at home, we directly source it from Israel. ToT becomes pointless even if we get it.

Any uncooled seeker technology, if it exists on newer blocks of the Javelin, would likely be classified/restricted for export; similar uncooled infrared imaging technology has been restricted from ToT twice by the US in the past five years. If India does get ToT, the seeker head and CLU will likely be export models only with limited functionality.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Requirment is cooled seeker technology, We already fielding such technology in ATGM arena ..

Any uncooled seeker technology, if it exists on newer blocks of the Javelin, would likely be classified/restricted for export; similar uncooled infrared imaging technology has been restricted from ToT twice by the US in the past five years. If India does get ToT, the seeker head and CLU will likely be export models only with limited functionality.

 

[p2prada]

Any uncooled seeker technology, if it exists on newer blocks of the Javelin, would likely be classified/restricted for export; similar uncooled infrared imaging technology has been restricted from ToT twice by the US in the past five years. If India does get ToT, the seeker head and CLU will likely be export models only with limited functionality.

It is not so simple when it comes to JVs. The Greenpine was completely restricted by the US ITAR laws. Why do we have it then and why are we making our own modifications to it?

It is simple, while it is true that US laws won't allow export of existing technology, but there are no laws that prohibit the companies from developing high end technologies in the client's state.

For the company in question, it is double the R&D expenditure, but it won't be a problem if the client and the company can afford it and enough numbers are bought, which India is bound to order. You can say the seeker may end up being better than what was initially developed. After all, it is the same for Brahmos too and looks like FGFA is also headed down the same path. We have plenty of existing JVs which are working this way.

Entirely different if we are going to buy the seeker instead of developing it in India. Then what you said would come into the picture, but then India won't go for such a deal.

 

[roma]

It is not so simple when it comes to JVs. The Greenpine was completely restricted by the US ITAR laws. Why do we have it then and why are we making our own modifications to it?

It is simple, while it is true that US laws won't allow export of existing technology, but there are no laws that prohibit the companies from developing high end technologies in the client's state.

For the company in question, it is double the R&D expenditure, but it won't be a problem if the client and the company can afford it and enough numbers are bought, which India is bound to order. You can say the seeker may end up being better than what was initially developed. After all, it is the same for Brahmos too and looks like FGFA is also headed down the same path. We have plenty of existing JVs which are working this way.

Entirely different if we are going to buy the seeker instead of developing it in India. Then what you said would come into the picture, but then India won't go for such a deal.

bro - your reply was to dragon-lizard, why bother to tell them all that ?
i would have just smiled and said , ok think what you like ?