US is rogue state: Gen Padmanabhan

Singh

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Singh,
a few nitpicks if I may, China's rise is potentially detrimental to us but how can anyone claim that its rise is deterimental to the world? Is it anymore detrimental than rise of any other country to the status of super-power? Will China be using nukes on another country the way the present superpower dropped atom bombs on Japan?
China will not be using Nuclear weapons on a fascist state in case of a war so its rise is only detrimental to India and good for the world ?

China is a totalitarian xenophobic country known for its stellar HR abuses. It is a country whose ideals are antithetical to that of democracies.


Also, why mention the democracy of US when you talk about aligning with it? Is internal democracy of US a factor for our aligning with them? Has their internal democracy stopped them from working with countries which are ruled directly or indirectly by military regimes and dictators? If not, then why mention democracy at all? Shouldnt it matter zilch to India whether US is a democracy or monarchy or mobocracy or whatever?
Democracies have a natural alliance. Strategic interests have necessitated us to forge alliances with dictatorships, theocracies, even terrorists.
 
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johnee

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China will not be using Nuclear weapons on a fascist state in case of a war so its rise is only detrimental to India and good for the world ?

China is a totalitarian xenophobic country known for its stellar HR abuses. It is a country whose ideals are antithetical to that of democracies.
China's internal system of governance is least of bothers of the world. The question is how exactly is China's rise anymore detrimental to the world than the rise of other superpowers in the past? China's rise is detrimental to India is clear, but IMHO, China's rise is not necessarily detrimental to the world, no more than America's rise or Great Britain's rise was detrimental to the world in past. If your general point was that the rise of any new superpower is a painful process for the world, I tend to agree.


Democracies have a natural alliance.
Strategic interests have necessitated us to forge alliances with Palestine, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran.
The highlighted part is exactly what I dont understand. How are democracies natural allies? What is natural alliance? What is unnatural alliance? Are not all alliances based on strategic interests?
 

ahmedsid

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Johnee, you just saying that Chinese wont do harm to the world if they become the Sole Superpower? Come on Man, first they ll take Arunachal Pradesh, Then they ll Take Taiwan, They will Claim Russian parts, then take your pic, till they reach Kerala saying that since we have communism here, we too need to be under the Chinese!!!

Just think How Pakistan will be! It will be like what Israel is to USA :p Just think of that day! :p
 

Rage

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The good General has wayyy too much time on his hands.

johnee makes some excellent points. China's rise is not inherently detrimental to most countries in the world, bar of course India, Taiwan, perhaps Russia and Japan, and a few of its other neighbours, notably Vietnam, and with the obvious, redundant exception of the global hegemon- the US of A.

Certainly in their economics, they have been a far more benign player in Africa and the Middle East, although perhaps that is a direct consequence of the alternative 'neo-colonial' engagement practiced by the West, both now and previously, and could not be taken as proemial to their future actions.
 

Armand2REP

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China's internal system of governance is least of bothers of the world. The question is how exactly is China's rise anymore detrimental to the world than the rise of other superpowers in the past? China's rise is detrimental to India is clear, but IMHO, China's rise is not necessarily detrimental to the world, no more than America's rise or Great Britain's rise was detrimental to the world in past. If your general point was that the rise of any new superpower is a painful process for the world, I tend to agree.

The highlighted part is exactly what I dont understand. How are democracies natural allies? What is natural alliance? What is unnatural alliance? Are not all alliances based on strategic interests?
China's rise is quite detrimental to the world. They promote African genocide by subverting UN arms embargoes they signed. They proliferate nuclear and ballistic missile technology. They fund and supply terror organsiations and also states who support them. They bankroll totalitarian regimes. They buy up resources and kick locals off the jobs with imported Chinese labour. They flood the world with poisened food and toys. They flood the world with illegal knockoffs. They destroy every ecosystem they touch. They steal every idea since they can't come up with one. The Imperialism China is trying to build in the world is a cancer that is eating away at the human race. A democratic China is welcome, but CCP has to go.
 

nrj

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A democratic China is welcome, but CCP has to go.
I have a wish to see it in this life.......

CCP will be thrown away making way for democracy but world will suffer substantially before it.
 

Singh

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China's internal system of governance is least of bothers of the world. The question is how exactly is China's rise anymore detrimental to the world than the rise of other superpowers in the past? China's rise is detrimental to India is clear, but IMHO, China's rise is not necessarily detrimental to the world, no more than America's rise or Great Britain's rise was detrimental to the world in past.
China's internal system is very bothersome to the world. Their economic system, imperialistic ambitions and global nuclear proliferation are as a result of their "internal system of governance"

China's rise is detrimental to the world. If its relatively less so or more so is irrelevant. If you can prove that its not detrimental in absolute terms, forget about relative terms, than please do so else stop being an apologist.

If your general point was that the rise of any new superpower is a painful process for the world, I tend to agree.
No that was not my point. India's rise is a stellar example contradicting your claim.

The highlighted part is exactly what I dont understand. How are democracies natural allies? What is natural alliance? What is unnatural alliance? Are not all alliances based on strategic interests?
1. Same beliefs, values and PoVs.
2. Convergence of interests largely due to Same beliefs, values and PoVs.
3. Antithetical beliefs, values. Temporary. Unsustainable.
4. No.

The good General has wayyy too much time on his hands.

johnee makes some excellent points. China's rise is not inherently detrimental to most countries in the world, bar of course India, Taiwan, perhaps Russia and Japan, and a few of its other neighbours, notably Vietnam, and with the obvious, redundant exception of the global hegemon- the US of A.

Certainly in their economics, they have been a far more benign player in Africa and the Middle East, although perhaps that is a direct consequence of the alternative 'neo-colonial' engagement practiced by the West, both now and previously, and could not be taken as proemial to their future actions.
Armand2Rep has answered most of your points but I suggest you read upon China's role in Africa and ME.
It has virtually bought off countries in Africa, and proliferated arms all over the world.
 

johnee

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Johnee, you just saying that Chinese wont do harm to the world if they become the Sole Superpower? Come on Man, first they ll take Arunachal Pradesh, Then they ll Take Taiwan, They will Claim Russian parts, then take your pic, till they reach Kerala saying that since we have communism here, we too need to be under the Chinese!!!

Just think How Pakistan will be! It will be like what Israel is to USA :p Just think of that day! :p
Ahmedji, China's rise will definitely be causing jitters to those that have disputes with China, India being one of them. But that does not constitute the whole world. Similarly, US being a super-power is also detrimental to its enemies. Infact, US' super-power status has been detrimental to us for most part of independent existance of our nation. My point simply is that we are extrapolating our fears on to the rest of the world. And Africa, well, that place was always exploited by all rising superpowers.
 

johnee

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China's rise is quite detrimental to the world. They promote African genocide by subverting UN arms embargoes they signed. They proliferate nuclear and ballistic missile technology. They fund and supply terror organsiations and also states who support them. They bankroll totalitarian regimes. They buy up resources and kick locals off the jobs with imported Chinese labour. They flood the world with poisened food and toys. They flood the world with illegal knockoffs. They destroy every ecosystem they touch. They steal every idea since they can't come up with one. The Imperialism China is trying to build in the world is a cancer that is eating away at the human race. A democratic China is welcome, but CCP has to go.
Can we not create a similar list of ills of the present Super-power? Infact, the question that anyone should be asking is howcome China has done all this and gotten away if the present superpower did not wink and nod? For EG: Chinese prolifiration to Pakistan was well known to US, but they winked and nodded.

Let me clarify that I am not a fan of China nor its policies. From India's perspective, China's rise democratic or otherwise is not really a welcome thing. But from world's POV, the ills of China that you mentioned hardly matter as similar ills can be found in US. Is not US supporting most military regimes? Why go too far, look at Pakistan. US supports all those monarchies in the middle east who then use their petro-dollars to fund wahhabism in the world which is the root cause of all islamic terrorism in form or the other.

Lastly, tell me is their any superpower that has been benevolent towards Africa(or for that matter even towards the poorer countries of Asia) if it didnt suit their agenda?
 

johnee

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China's internal system is very bothersome to the world. Their economic system, imperialistic ambitions and global nuclear proliferation are as a result of their "internal system of governance"
China's way of economy is definitely a bother to the world but politically does the world care whether China is a communist country or a monarcy? Does the world care what China does in Tibet or what ambitions China nurtures in regard to Taiwan?
As long as the policies of China by which the world is not directly/indirectly affected, it is willing to put up with China. Just as the world has put up with US and in the past with UK.

China's rise is detrimental to the world. If its relatively less so or more so is irrelevant. If you can prove that its not detrimental in absolute terms, forget about relative terms, than please do so else stop being an apologist.
You have created a axiom and want me to prove you wrong. The onus is on you to prove your 'axiom'. Let me repeat my question for your benefit: How is China's rise anymore detrimental to the world then the rise of any other superpower in the past?

BTW, asking whether someone who is a villian to us is a villian to the world does not make me its apologist...

If you actually give proper answer, then I more than willing to be the apologist of your view. I would love to believe that CCP ruled China is the biggest baddest country that the world must absolutely be in fear of if it ever succeeds in sitting on the throne.

No that was not my point. India's rise is a stellar example contradicting your claim.

India is no superpower, not even close. We are talking about rising superpowers not just nations. The difference is critical. Most nations can rise peacefully, but can superpowers rise peacefully?


1. Same beliefs, values and PoVs.
2. Convergence of interests largely due to Same beliefs, values and PoVs.
3. Antithetical beliefs, values. Temporary. Unsustainable.
4. No.

Thanx, saar. And you have just given an answer to your initial assessment that 'democracies are natural allies'. Values, POVs and belief systems are not based on political systems(though they do get affected by them). For instance: US and UK are natural allies. Same belief system, values and POVs. US and Pak are unnatural allies albiet a strategic ones. And both these alliances have endured for about 50odd years. But the critical point is that democracy or lack of it is not the factor here. A political system is never a factor in alliances. Therefore, India is not a natural partner of US based on democracy.
 
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Armand2REP

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Can we not create a similar list of ills of the present Super-power? Infact, the question that anyone should be asking is howcome China has done all this and gotten away if the present superpower did not wink and nod? For EG: Chinese prolifiration to Pakistan was well known to US, but they winked and nodded.
US has sanctioned China over proliferation to Pakistan and Iran so they didn't just wink and nodd. They might not have acted as strongly as we would have liked, but their economic interests outweighed the offence. The point is, the US doesn't promote such behavoir and rarely conducts itself in the same manner. For most of the issues listed, the US has not violated many if not most in the Post-Soviet period. China does it every day.

Let me clarify that I am not a fan of China nor its policies. From India's perspective, China's rise democratic or otherwise is not really a welcome thing. But from world's POV, the ills of China that you mentioned hardly matter as similar ills can be found in US. Is not US supporting most military regimes? Why go too far, look at Pakistan. US supports all those monarchies in the middle east who then use their petro-dollars to fund wahhabism in the world which is the root cause of all islamic terrorism in form or the other.
All one has to do is go down the list of the worlds worst regimes and China supports them all. Complain about the US supporting Pakistan, Pak wouldn't exist if it wasn't for China. Everyone buys Arab oil so that is a moot point.

Lastly, tell me is their any superpower that has been benevolent towards Africa(or for that matter even towards the poorer countries of Asia) if it didnt suit their agenda?
Arming Africans with illegal weapons and supporting ruthless dictators to commit genocide is not a benevolence towards Africans... it is a crime.
 

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