US doubts HAL's capability

[mattster]

I fail to understand why people still make this Western Culture versus Eastern Culture argument. Its a given historical fact that Western culture has left Eastern culture far behind in the last couple 100 years. That said, every culture has its strengths and weaknesses.

The most dynamic and successful countries are the ones that are able to retain the best of their own culture while learning and adopting better practices from others.

Japan is a prime example of this. They retain their values but have also adopted Western values that they view as practical and better.
Its amazing that such a small country can be an economic superpower.

 

[mayfair]

I fail to understand why people still make this Western Culture versus Eastern Culture argument. Its a given historical fact that Western culture has left Eastern culture far behind in the last couple 100 years. That said, every culture has its strengths and weaknesses.

The most dynamic and successful countries are the ones that are able to retain the best of their own culture while learning and adopting better practices from others.

Japan is a prime example of this. They retain their values but have also adopted Western values that they view as practical and better.
Its amazing that such a small country can be an economic superpower.

Very true.. but not amazing at all if you know the Japanese

 

[sandeepdg]

It is rather ironic that India invents the number 0 and high grade steel while the specialisations of modern India are IT ( numbers 1-0) and high grade steel. European legacy comes from the Roman Empire and their assimilation of Classical Greece, it is the basis of Western Culture. That culture spreads to every corner of the Earth, people relish it and want it because it is synonymous with prosperity and freedom. By the time India becomes prosperous, it will have already assimilated the tenets of that culture by doing away with much of what classical India still believes, caste system par example. We can already see the effects it is having in China, the more prosperous they become, the more Westernised they want to be, spread of Christianity par example. Of course these civilisations will still retain an identity of their own, but Western influence cannot be denied. India rising is another step in globalisation which is Western based.

Mate, I have seen you veering discussions on contemporary issues and stretching them to preaching Christianity and comparing how and which culture is superior etc. Every culture has its strength and weaknesses, aptly said by a fellow member here. And the rise and fall of different cultures will continue till eternity. The greatest civilizations of mankind, the Egyptian, the Mesopotamian, the Indus Valley Civilization, the ancient Chinese civilization, ancient Turkish civilization, the Roman civilization etc all had their golden periods in history and yet in the end all great civilizations fell. So, there's very much a possibility that the current western culture that you are so proud of will fall, and the eastern cultures that have lied low for the past hundreds of years in history after dominating the world since the beginning of mankind will rise again. But, as again aptly said by a fellow member here, only those civilizations persist that are able to adapt and change according to the situation and prevailing circumstances, and that goes for everybody. So, if we need to adapt to western culture here in the east to utilize the strengths it has to offer, then it goes without saying that the same follows for those living in the western world too, i.e. adapt and pick on the strengths of eastern cultures, which are a plenty to say !

P.S. Please preach your Christianity fundas in the religion thread, and not on threads that have nothing to do with religion !

 

[sandeepdg]

Actually, the fact of the matter is that though there has been large scale industrialization in India since independence, but most of the manufacturing and production processes that are followed till date, have been low tech and more manual labor intensive. Being an engineer myself and having visited different industrial organizations, from very high tech to very low tech, its easy to make comparisons in the techniques that are applied in similar manufacturing processes at different companies. So, what Mr Roemer quoted is not entirely inaccurate, since the precision that a 5-axis waterjet cutting machine can achieve cannot be achieved by 1000 people working by hand or by a simple horizontal or vertical milling machine ! And most manufacturing processes in India utilize manual labor to do the job or use low tech machinery, as both are cheaper options. That doesn't mean we cannot manufacture what the Americans can, but yes, quality and precision may be an issue with the kind of machinery and processes that we work on. Although, the situation has changed quite a while in the last 10-15 years, and more and more industries are going for high end machinery and high tech processes, but still its a small percentage of the entire manufacturing industry.

 

[Armand2REP]

What

Let's see your logic here. According to you, Western culture = prosperity and freedom = spread of Christianity. Okay.

Unfortunately, the Haitians and Chadians and numerous other peoples who are today Christians are the poorest people in the world. Ironically, both Haiti and Chad (just two examples) are former French colonies. Apparently the "light of glorious Western civilization" did not reach these people, despite being ruled by colonialists for centuries.

With the rise of India and China, the world will not see a spread of Western culture but a resurgence of Eastern culture, which has long been subdued due to low levels of development. It's about time too, as the spread of Western culture has been one of the greatest calamities to have occurred in the history of mankind.

Let's see your logic here. According to you, Western culture = only Christianity. OK...

There is quite a bit more to being Western than just the religion. Primary criteria are the principles laid out in the Renaissance and Enlightenment which cover scientific, social and political advances. When a nation has free markets, democracy, equality under the law and industrial/scientific revolutions, they go on to be developed nations. The Protestant reformation really brought Christianity into the modern times which enabled those movements to happen. It unleashed the shackles of the church and culture to advance more quickly. Haiti and Chad are African tribal cultures which couldn't or wouldn't adopt those values so they remain poor. South Korea adopted all those tenets and even the religion, now they are prosperous. Japan adopted everything but the religion, they are well off but in decline. One of the growing characterstics of Western civilisation is actually secularisation and Japan is doing that part really well.

 

[mattster]

Let's see your logic here. According to you, Western culture = only Christianity. OK...

There is quite a bit more to being Western than just the religion. Primary criteria are the principles laid out in the Renaissance and Enlightenment which cover scientific, social and political advances. When a nation has free markets, democracy, equality under the law and industrial/scientific revolutions, they go on to be developed nations. The Protestant reformation really brought Christianity into the modern times which enabled those movements to happen. It unleashed the shackles of the church and culture to advance more quickly. Haiti and Chad are African tribal cultures which couldn't or wouldn't adopt those values so they remain poor. South Korea adopted all those tenets and even the religion, now they are prosperous. Japan adopted everything but the religion, they are well off but in decline. One of the growing characterstics of Western civilisation is actually secularisation and Japan is doing that part really well.

I do agree with most of what Armand has said, but the salient point that he made is about secularization - nations that evolve a secular culture where religion is somewhat "side-lined" to personal lifestyle choices and do not factor in the governance of the nation are much more likely to move ahead and become progressive healthy countries.

Non-secular nations where religion and faith plays a central role in everything are less likely to be successful. You can see it clearly in Pakistan and India.

 

[civfanatic]

I fail to understand why people still make this Western Culture versus Eastern Culture argument. Its a given historical fact that Western culture has left Eastern culture far behind in the last couple 100 years. That said, every culture has its strengths and weaknesses.

The most dynamic and successful countries are the ones that are able to retain the best of their own culture while learning and adopting better practices from others.

Japan is a prime example of this. They retain their values but have also adopted Western values that they view as practical and better.
Its amazing that such a small country can be an economic superpower.

Indian civilization is as old as the other great civilizations of the world, such as Sumer, Egypt, and Greece. But while the latter civilizations have all come and gone, and replaced with something else, Indian civilization continues to this day. Indians still speak Sanksrit-derived languages and follow dharmic religions, just as Indians did over 2,000 years ago.

Why is it that Indian civilization has persisted while others have failed? The answer is that the greatest attribute of Indian civilization throughout its history was its ability to absorb and assimilate other cultures. It is absolutely true that "The most dynamic and successful countries are the ones that are able to retain the best of their own culture while learning and adopting better practices from others", and India has shown this throughout history. The Yavanas, Kushanas, Sakas, and Hunas all invaded India, but failed to uproot Indian civilization. Instead, they became Indianized and assimilated into Indian society, while making their own contributions to the fabric of Indian civilization. Even the Muslims, who had completely uprooted the ancient cultures of Syria, Egypt, and Iraq, failed to do so in India. Although many Indians converted to Islam, they still remained Indian by virtue of their culture, while Syrians, Iraqis, and Egyptians are today all indistinguishable "Arabs". The Islamic empires of India, with the Mughals being the best example, were all Indianized. Besides their religion, there was no real difference between the Mughals and previous empires in India.

However, this cycle of Indianization came to an end in the late 18th century. This was when the British began their rule over India; unlike previous regimes, the British governed India with the sole intent of exploiting the country. All the wealth that India produced was siphoned off to Britain, rather than reinvested in India like it was traditionally. The result was a drastic impoverishment of the subcontinent, and with it, the development of an inferiority complex that continues to this day. Indians were taught, both subtly and overtly, that Western culture was superior to Indian culture. The British boast that "Not all the books of East could equal in value a single shelf from an Englishman's library" resonated throughout Asia in general, and India in particular. This created a tragedy that was unlike anything before in India's history. For the first time, Indians doubted the value of themselves and their culture. Today, Indians travel to the West to study and work, while in the past it was the rest of the world who traveled to the great universities of Nalanda, Takshasila, Varanasi, and Nagarjunakonda. Some of these Indians in the West even have the audacity to proclaim Western culture as "superior" to their own.

There is nothing, I repeat absolutely nothing inherently superior about Western culture. Modern "Western" concepts about society, economics, science, and mathematics were all summarized in ancient works like the Arthashastra and Aryabhatiyam thousands of years ago, and I have posted the former work on DFI so everyone can read it. The West simply played their hand better than the rest of the world in the past couple centuries, and thus grew at their expense. They relied on a combination of innovation, chance, and sheer ruthlessness to obtain the position of top dog. The East was the old rich man who had grown idle and complacent, while the West was the young, poor, but energetic man who was willing to do anything necessary to get a share of the old man's riches.

But I believe in cycles, and I believe that India and the East will rise again. We must be ruthless in the pursuit of our interests, just as the West was. This is the most important thing that we should learn from the West, and it is something that we are still learning.

 

[mattster]

Indian civilization is as old as the other great civilizations of the world, such as Sumer, Egypt, and Greece. But while the latter civilizations have all come and gone, and replaced with something else, Indian civilization continues to this day. Indians still speak Sanksrit-derived languages and follow dharmic religions, just as Indians did over 2,000 years ago.
Today, Indians travel to the West to study and work, while in the past it was the rest of the world who traveled to the great universities of Nalanda, Takshasila, Varanasi, and Nagarjunakonda. Some of these Indians in the West even have the audacity to proclaim Western culture as "superior" to their own.

There is nothing, I repeat absolutely nothing inherently superior about Western culture. Modern "Western" concepts about society, economics, science, and mathematics were all summarized in ancient works like the Arthashastra and Aryabhatiyam thousands of years ago, and I have posted the former work on DFI so everyone can read it. The West simply played their hand better than the rest of the world in the past couple centuries, and thus grew at their expense. They relied on a combination of innovation, chance, and sheer ruthlessness to obtain the position of top dog. The East was the old rich man who had grown idle and complacent, while the West was the young, poor, but energetic man who was willing to do anything necessary to get a share of the old man's riches.

But I believe in cycles, and I believe that India and the East will rise again. We must be ruthless in the pursuit of our interests, just as the West was. This is the most important thing that we should learn from the West, and it is something that we are still learning.

While there is a definitely a grain of truth in some of what you say - the problem I have with your overall argument is that it is a romanticized/somewhat revisionist version of history. It also omits a few key points.

Its all well and good for Indians, Chinese and Arabs to lay claim to many of the early scientific and mathematical ideas a thousand years ago, and indeed they did shine in that period. For Instance - it is a given historical fact that the Arabs invented the concept of "zero". Unfortunately and rather ironically for the Arabs, they havent done squat intellectually since they came up with the idea of zero.

Most of the foundation of modern science, math and socio-economic concepts used today was developed in the last couple of 300 hundred or so years. The advances of the last 300 far outweigh what came before that by a wide margin. Its an exponential rise not a linear rise. Remember that it was only a few hundred years ago that people thought the planet was flat.
So whether you and I like it or not - its a historical fact that much of that work was done in the West.

Also India was not the only country that was colonized, and the effects of that era are widespread; but, there should be is an expiry-date for the whole "colonization argument". People who constantly bring up this argument have to understand that the shelf-life for this argument has expired a while ago.

As I said earlier, all cultures have their strengths and weaknesses. Having lived and worked exactly half my life in the Far-East, and the other half of my life in the West - i would have to say that on balance, I think Western culture has definitely got more strengths than weaknesses. I think its a more equitable and fairer system which allows the individual to achieve their potential, and transcend their circumstances without having to pull strings/connections/etc.

I woudnt use the word "superior" its too bombastic a term in this context - I would just say its a better system.

 

[sandeepdg]

^^ Whoever told you that Arabs invented zero ?? Mathematics was an specialty of early Indian civilization, most of all Aryabhatt ! Other than that, I agree with most of your arguments and I also respect those expressed by Civfanatic, being an Indian myself.

The fact of the matter is that our great great ancestors achieved a lot and documented most of our developments in science & modern technology and all others things important to the human society, which they hoped would be put to better use in next thousands of years, but unfortunately all that knowledgeable resources and the message they contained vanished from our psyche since the past 200-300 years or so, since foreign powers' domination and exploitation of India started, and we fell in such a hole from which we are still struggling to get out of. But that being said, its been quite long since then and its time we unshackle ourselves of this being inferior mindset and show the world what we are capable of by working with a zeal to take India to the same level of glory that it was some 500 years back when it was the wealthiest land on this planet - rightfully called the "Golden Bird" !

We cannot keep blaming our past for our current misfortunes. Its been too long that we have been doing so, we need to look to the future with an open mind and do everything that is required to make this nation grow stronger economically, socially and culturally.

If Japan can rise from the aftermath of the only nuclear attack sixty five years back to being the third biggest economy in the world and probably the most advanced nation in mass adoption of modern science and technology is because they assimilated all the good thing the west had to offer with out relinquishing their age old values. That should serve as an example to us. We have been great at hanging on to our age old values, but we have relinquished our practice of learning, assimilating and adopting knowledge that modern world had to offer us and use and excel in them, since the past 300 years or so, that needs to change if we have to look forward to a brighter future for this ancient and great land that gave mankind so much since the past 5000 years.

I don't agree with the argument Japan is in decline, rather I feel Japan would grow more stronger than before in the next 50 years. One more thing that I would say is that "colonialism" was a plague that hurt this world more than anything else, the effects which can be seen till date. Europeans were the colonizers and the colonies were the nation of Asia, Africa and South America, the Europeans grew rich on the wealth of these nations, and since then most of the third world comprises of nations from these 3 continents mainly. Other than a handful of Asian countries, no other country has been able to reverse that situation effectively.

I agree that in today's context the western systems are much better and effective, but we followed these systems long before they originated in the west, but then we lost touch and we are paying the price for that till date, we need to practice following the same systems again if we have to move ahead.

 

[Param]

. For Instance - it is a given historical fact that the Arabs invented the concept of "zero". Unfortunately and rather ironically for the Arabs, they havent done squat intellectually since they came up with the idea of zero.

Dude how can you even say that?Zero is our greatest invention. Arabs? they borrowed Indian numerals and the Europeans called it Arabic numerals.Just try looking at the way Indian scripts are written and compare them with the Arabic script. The numerals have no resemblance the Arabic script.

 

[civfanatic]

Its all well and good for Indians, Chinese and Arabs to lay claim to many of the early scientific and mathematical ideas a thousand years ago, and indeed they did shine in that period. For Instance - it is a given historical fact that the Arabs invented the concept of "zero". Unfortunately and rather ironically for the Arabs, they havent done squat intellectually since they came up with the idea of zero.

The Arabs did not invent zero. The concept of zero, and many other mathematical concepts such as calculus and trigonometry, were developed during the Gupta Empire by Indian astronomers and mathematicians like Aryabhatta. It was during this time that the modern numeral system was developed, which the Arabs called "Hindu numerals" and the Europeans called "Modus Indorum", or "Indian method".

Without the Indian accomplishments in mathematics, which were adopted and utilized by Europe in the Late Middle Ages, it would not be possible for the Europeans to make their own achievements in the field.

Most of the foundation of modern science, math and socio-economic concepts used today was developed in the last couple of 300 hundred or so years. The advances of the last 300 far outweigh what came before that by a wide margin. Its an exponential rise not a linear rise. Remember that it was only a few hundred years ago that people thought the planet was flat.
So whether you and I like it or not - its a historical fact that much of that work was done in the West.

Also India was not the only country that was colonized, and the effects of that era are widespread; but, there should be is an expiry-date for the whole "colonization argument". People who constantly bring up this argument have to understand that the shelf-life for this argument has expired a while ago.

It was done in the West because they were top dog. They had the political dominance over the rest of the world. Do you think people in India or China would focus on making new discoveries when their countries were falling apart, famines were widespread, and basic necessities in short supply? The greatest Indian and Chinese accomplishments were made when their nations were politically, economically, and culturally dominant. If the roles were reversed, what would you expect?

Once the Industrial Revolution began, imperialism took off to new heights, and these two factors created an astronomically huge disparity between the East and West. India was under colonial rule during this time, so it was prevented from industrializing. The effects of this period are still felt very strongly today, and the large disparity still exists.

The colonial "argument" is not really an argument but a statement of fact. Colonialism may have ended, but the vast majority of the world's wealth and political power is still concentrated in the West. Luckily, the West is currently declining and the East is rising. By the end of this century, it very possible that the balance of power will have returned to its pre-colonial state (i.e. with the East in the dominant position).

As I said earlier, all cultures have their strengths and weaknesses. Having lived and worked exactly half my life in the Far-East, and the other half of my life in the West - i would have to say that on balance, I think Western culture has definitely got more strengths than weaknesses. I think its a more equitable and fairer system which allows the individual to achieve their potential, and transcend their circumstances without having to pull strings/connections/etc.

The reason why the West has developed such a progressive society overall is because the people, enjoying economic prosperity, demanded it. India today has many of the same problems that the United States had in the late 19th century, such as rampant political corruption, poor rule of law, slums caused by overurbanization, child labor etc. These problems were resolved largely because the people took action.


P.S. I've lived in the United States as well, and it's not as beautiful as everyone says it is. Discrimination definitely occurs, and if you are not white then you won't advance very far. There are a few exceptions, of course, but in general that is the rule.

 

[civfanatic]

^^ Also, about the Earth being flat, very few people thought that a few hundred years ago. Greek geographers like Eratosthenes had already shown that the Earth was round, and this conclusion was also reached independently by Indian and Persian geographers.

If you're talking about Christopher Columbus, his argument was that the Earth's circumference was 18,000 km rather than 24,000 km, and that this shorter circumference would make it feasible to sail to India by way of the Atlantic. He was in fact wrong, but we all know what he found instead.

European intellectuals in Columbus' time were well aware that the Earth was round.

 

[Armand2REP]

Indian civilization is as old as the other great civilizations of the world, such as Sumer, Egypt, and Greece. But while the latter civilizations have all come and gone, and replaced with something else, Indian civilization continues to this day. Indians still speak Sanksrit-derived languages and follow dharmic religions, just as Indians did over 2,000 years ago.

Maybe it should have been replaced a long time ago.

Why is it that Indian civilization has persisted while others have failed? The answer is that the greatest attribute of Indian civilization throughout its history was its ability to absorb and assimilate other cultures. It is absolutely true that "The most dynamic and successful countries are the ones that are able to retain the best of their own culture while learning and adopting better practices from others", and India has shown this throughout history. The Yavanas, Kushanas, Sakas, and Hunas all invaded India, but failed to uproot Indian civilization. Instead, they became Indianized and assimilated into Indian society, while making their own contributions to the fabric of Indian civilization. Even the Muslims, who had completely uprooted the ancient cultures of Syria, Egypt, and Iraq, failed to do so in India. Although many Indians converted to Islam, they still remained Indian by virtue of their culture, while Syrians, Iraqis, and Egyptians are today all indistinguishable "Arabs". The Islamic empires of India, with the Mughals being the best example, were all Indianized. Besides their religion, there was no real difference between the Mughals and previous empires in India.

Yet India still institutes a caste system, has malnourished cows roaming the streets, and a religion that pollutes the main water supply. Maybe it is time to change.

However, this cycle of Indianization came to an end in the late 18th century. This was when the British began their rule over India; unlike previous regimes, the British governed India with the sole intent of exploiting the country. All the wealth that India produced was siphoned off to Britain, rather than reinvested in India like it was traditionally. The result was a drastic impoverishment of the subcontinent, and with it, the development of an inferiority complex that continues to this day. Indians were taught, both subtly and overtly, that Western culture was superior to Indian culture. The British boast that "Not all the books of East could equal in value a single shelf from an Englishman's library" resonated throughout Asia in general, and India in particular. This created a tragedy that was unlike anything before in India's history. For the first time, Indians doubted the value of themselves and their culture. Today, Indians travel to the West to study and work, while in the past it was the rest of the world who traveled to the great universities of Nalanda, Takshasila, Varanasi, and Nagarjunakonda. Some of these Indians in the West even have the audacity to proclaim Western culture as "superior" to their own.

Like the subcontinent was rich before the British got there? The caste system was prevalent then and it still exists today. Don't blame others for your own problems.

There is nothing, I repeat absolutely nothing inherently superior about Western culture. Modern "Western" concepts about society, economics, science, and mathematics were all summarized in ancient works like the Arthashastra and Aryabhatiyam thousands of years ago, and I have posted the former work on DFI so everyone can read it. The West simply played their hand better than the rest of the world in the past couple centuries, and thus grew at their expense. They relied on a combination of innovation, chance, and sheer ruthlessness to obtain the position of top dog. The East was the old rich man who had grown idle and complacent, while the West was the young, poor, but energetic man who was willing to do anything necessary to get a share of the old man's riches.

You say not to play the victim but that is exactly what you do. How long is it going to be before India and all the rest of the colonies no longer get to play victims? Simple fact is, most of these countries would be less than where they are without European civilisation. These ancient civilisations had centuries before European interference to develop revolutions but never did anything more than what they did in the past. They all had their own Golden Ages but did little with it. You claim all these revolution concepts were already written down thousands of years ago... so what? If you don't get the revolution it is like a tree falling in the forest, no one hears it.

But I believe in cycles, and I believe that India and the East will rise again. We must be ruthless in the pursuit of our interests, just as the West was. This is the most important thing that we should learn from the West, and it is something that we are still learning.

How can the East ever rival the West when it was the West that defined the East in the first place? The East has no sense of itself, it never has and it never will. A powerful India and a powerful China just leads to the next war.

 

[civfanatic]

Maybe it should have been replaced a long time ago.

Thankfully it wasn't.

Yet India still institutes a caste system, has malnourished cows roaming the streets, and a religion that pollutes the main water supply. Maybe it is time to change.

The caste system was not orginally devised to be exploitative. It was simply an effective way of organizing labor and tasks. It was so effective that it remained unchanged for thousands of years.

Cremation in the Ganges is an aspect of religion, and religion is deeply ingrained in Indian culture. Religion will play a less important role in all aspects of life as social development continues, but it will take time. Apparently, Christians still bury their dead in cemetaries, even though it wastes valuable land.

As for cows wandering in streets, what's wrong with it?

Like the subcontinent was rich before the British got there?

Um, yes it was? Which country were Barthalomew Diaz, Vasco de Gama, and Columbus all trying to find a trade route to? France? lol

Emperor Akbar's annual revenue in 1600 was greater than Britain's entire treasury in 1800.

The caste system was prevalent then and it still exists today.

Yet those inferior Indians with their inferior culture still had a more prosperous economy than any European nation before the Industrial Revolution.

Don't blame others for your own problems.

Even though I don't really like my PM, I'll let him do the talking for me on this one:

There is no doubt that our grievances against the British Empire had a sound basis. As the painstaking statistical work of the Cambridge historian Angus Maddison has shown, India's share of world income collapsed from 22.6 per cent in 1700, almost equal to Europe's share of 23.3 per cent at that time, to as low as 3.8 per cent in 1952.

Indeed, at the beginning of the 20th Century, "the brightest jewel in the British Crown" was the poorest country in the world in terms of per capita income.

- Manmohan Singh

You say not to play the victim but that is exactly what you do. How long is it going to be before India and all the rest of the colonies no longer get to play victims? Simple fact is, most of these countries would be less than where they are without European civilisation. These ancient civilisations had centuries before European interference to develop revolutions but never did anything more than what they did in the past. They all had their own Golden Ages but did little with it. You claim all these revolution concepts were already written down thousands of years ago... so what? If you don't get the revolution it is like a tree falling in the forest, no one hears it.

If Europe did not adopt Indian concepts in the Late Middle Ages, it would be nowhere today. And if the British did not exploit the riches of its "Jewel of the Crown", its own Industrial Revolution would have been retarded, which would in turn retard the industrial development of all of Europe (considering that Britain was the first industrialized country in Europe and the world).

You owe a lot more to India than you will ever admit.

How can the East ever rival the West when it was the West that defined the East in the first place? The East has no sense of itself, it never has and it never will. A powerful India and a powerful China just leads to the next war.

The terms "East" and "West" are just used for convenience. They are not unified bodies, politically or otherwise.

The East is the origin of human civilization, and the site of the world's most crowning achievments. When Europeans were living in caves with no sense of civilization, the peoples of Asia and the Middle East were living in sophisticated cities with a highly advanced culture. Without the East, there would be no West.

 

[The Messiah]

^ I think you upset him with pure facts.

 

[Sabir]

I just want to mention one point of civfanatic post. There is many wrong in cows roaming in streets. They often lead to accidents, injured themselves too. Specially when bulls fight among themselves , it become dangerous for bypassers. In Bhubaneshwar (I have never seen so many street dogs and cows anywhere) I found it so irritating to see whole streets full of cowdang every morning, and I escaped from there. Civic authority must check their population.

 

[civfanatic]

^^Have never been to Orissa, but I guess you are right that having too many "urban cattle" is a problem.

Personally, though, I think it should be a bigger priority to put working traffic lights on every intersection (like they have in the West). That will help prevent many accidents and also make people use their horn less.

Who knows, maybe we can teach our bovines to follow the traffic lights too.

 

[Armand2REP]

Thankfully it wasn't.

You are grateful India is one of the poorest countries on Earth?

The caste system was not orginally devised to be exploitative. It was simply an effective way of organizing labor and tasks. It was so effective that it remained unchanged for thousands of years.

It doesn't matter what it was, what matters is what is.

Cremation in the Ganges is an aspect of religion, and religion is deeply ingrained in Indian culture. Religion will play a less important role in all aspects of life as social development continues, but it will take time. Apparently, Christians still bury their dead in cemetaries, even though it wastes valuable land.

So dead bodies get thrown in the river, billions of people bathe in it every week, cows die, piss and crap in it by the millions and that is OK because it is religion. Get real...

As for cows wandering in streets, what's wrong with it?

Sanitation for one, safety for another... the way those cows are treated would be animal cruelty in Western society, ie neglect.

Um, yes it was? Which country were Barthalomew Diaz, Vasco de Gama, and Columbus all trying to find a trade route to? France? lol

Emperor Akbar's annual revenue in 1600 was greater than Britain's entire treasury in 1800.

Wasnt' that before Aurangjeb's Deccan invasion which collapsed the Indian economy? I thought so...

Mughal empire had a $90 billion economy in 1700, French Empire had a $200 billion economy in 1900. Let us use the currency inflator to find what that is worth today. $5 trillion for France using US inflator... $6.7 trillion for the Mughals using the pound inflator. The British Empire was worth FAR more.

Yet those inferior Indians with their inferior culture still had a more prosperous economy than any European nation before the Industrial Revolution.

No joke, the West was coming out of the Dark Ages. They called it Dark for a reason. Then there was a little thing called the Black Death which wiped out half the European population.

Even though I don't really like my PM, I'll let him do the talking for me on this one:

It wasn't the British that collapsed your economy, it was Aurangjeb that f***ed it all up. 100,000 dead per year, the entire treasury squandered... British didn't do shyte compared to that rape.

If Europe did not adopt Indian concepts in the Late Middle Ages, it would be nowhere today. And if the British did not exploit the riches of its "Jewel of the Crown", its own Industrial Revolution would have been retarded, which would in turn retard the industrial development of all of Europe (considering that Britain was the first industrialized country in Europe and the world).

What concepts were those? Syrian steel, Arabic mathematics, Chinese gunpowder? They may have had their origins in India, but India never did jack with it. Indians never could reproduce their own steel making recipe. You snooze you lose.

You owe a lot more to India than you will ever admit.

I owe my modern life to sleeping Indians? Sure...

The terms "East" and "West" are just used for convenience. They are not unified bodies, politically or otherwise.

There is a little Western alliance called NATO that holds 80% of the world's firepower. What is it in the East? The SCO that can't even stop genocide in its own backyard?

The East is the origin of human civilization, and the site of the world's most crowning achievments. When Europeans were living in caves with no sense of civilization, the peoples of Asia and the Middle East were living in sophisticated cities with a highly advanced culture. Without the East, there would be no West.

And now the peoples of the West are living lives of luxury and peace while the peoples of the East live in war, poverty and oppression. I will take my Western life any day, and so would anyone in the East!

 

[roma]

If our ancestors could invent Number System, Plastic Surgery and Steel then they were capable enough to build something which could fly. Europeans saw the light at the end of the tunnel after they started to believe in their legacy, started to feel proud of their ancient knowledge (Renaissance). When British captured India, they destroyed our self-esteem, made us believe that everything came from Europe, their philosophy is superior, we still believe.

Let us not forget:
Us= 3500 BC to 17th century
Europe= 17th century till now

We will rise again.

hmmmm nice post except for one thing ......your statement that "When British captured India, they destroyed our self-esteem," ........

my comment about that is that - they may have tried ( even that is debateable ) but as far as i can tell they sure didnt succeed .....let's remember that the euro incursion into asia was an extension of getting the Holy Lands of the middle east from the TURKS freeing lands form muslim control ...... te british also unlike other colonialsits tried their best to keep india intact and even added to their territory

secondly a far worse effect of post colonialsim would be what i might call " the pakistan syndrome " that is the tendency, habit or indeed vice to blame someone else for ones' own problems ....in pak's case it is mainly india ....i hope indian people for our own good do not do a pak on the brits ...it's too bad for us if we do ..... we fell into disarray and the euros tried to tkae us over ...portuguese , french, even danish and dutch .....the euro's tried china too but didnt get very far with that ....but main thing is we wil rise up as you said , on our own and there«s no need to get into the pak syndrome - it may be worse than the colonialism itself ?

 

[civfanatic]

You are grateful India is one of the poorest countries on Earth?

I am grateful that Indian culture has survived for so long, while other countries have lost their culture to foreign invaders or in the sands of time.

It doesn't matter what it was, what matters is what is.

Yes, the caste system today is archaic and needs to be sidelined, if not completely eliminated. There is no doubt about that.

My point was that the caste system has had different effects throughout Indian history. For most of Indian history, the caste system was crucial to maintaining stability, and stability is necessary for economic prosperity. Today, its an impediment more than anything else, because it no longer serves its historic purpose.

So dead bodies get thrown in the river, billions of people bathe in it every week, cows die, piss and crap in it by the millions and that is OK because it is religion. Get real...

I've already said that religion will eventually be sidelined as economic development continues. You cannot change a mindset overnight.

The real problem is not religion anyway, but the lack of modern sewage and water treatment facilities, as well as a lack of general ecological awareness. Both problems will take time to solve.

Sanitation for one, safety for another... the way those cows are treated would be animal cruelty in Western society, ie neglect.

Obviously, the population of stray animals should be controlled to prevent overunning of cities. But I would not want them to be eliminated completely, because I for one would miss them.

And please don't mention "animal cruelty". I have seen how animals are treated in factory farms and slaughterhouses in the United States. I'd rather not talk about it.

Wasnt' that before Aurangjeb's Deccan invasion which collapsed the Indian economy? I thought so...

There was something called the Maratha Empire that emerged after Aurangzeb's failed campaign. The Marathas unified most of India, and under their tutelage the Indian economy continued to prosper until about 1800. It was only starting in the late 18th century that visible signs of economic decline began to appear, and by the mid-19th century the Indian economy was in shambles. This economic collapse is the direct cause of British economic policies, the attempts of European revisionists to blame everything on the Muslims notwithstanding.

Mughal empire had a $90 billion economy in 1700, French Empire had a $200 billion economy in 1900. Let us use the currency inflator to find what that is worth today. $5 trillion for France using US inflator... $6.7 trillion for the Mughals using the pound inflator. The British Empire was worth FAR more.

I have no idea why you are comparing the economies of 18th century India and 20th century France.

The British Empire was worth far more because it owned India, lol.

No joke, the West was coming out of the Dark Ages. They called it Dark for a reason. Then there was a little thing called the Black Death which wiped out half the European population.

I'm taking about the 17th and 18th centuries. Europe by this time was well past the Dark Ages and into the late Renaissance. The Bubonic Plague had occurred three centuries earlier; it's completely irrelevant in the context of this discussion.

It wasn't the British that collapsed your economy, it was Aurangjeb that f***ed it all up. 100,000 dead per year, the entire treasury squandered... British didn't do shyte compared to that rape.

Do you really believe that?

10 million people died in the Bengal Famine of 1770 alone, which was a direct result of British policies. Bengal was occupied by the British during this time. Tens of millions more died in the subsequent famines during the British Raj, all the way to 1943. Nothing in the history of India compares to what the British did, and this is a fact. No use debating it.

The nature of colonialism is to exploit a country's resources for the benefit of the mother country, while at the same time systematically deindustrializing the colony and making it a giant market for the mother country's goods. This is what the British did in India, and it had a more devastating effect on India than any other colonized country in the world.

The statistics are already there to show that the Indian economy and share of world income were on par with Europe's right up the early 19th century. This was long after Aurangzeb. It is obvious what the real cause of the economic decline was.

What concepts were those? Syrian steel, Arabic mathematics, Chinese gunpowder? They may have had their origins in India, but India never did jack with it. Indians never could reproduce their own steel making recipe. You snooze you lose.

India actually did do "jack", because India had the largest economy (sometimes 2nd largest, to China) in the world right up to 1800. India was the world's top source of high-quality steel until the 18th century. Ever heard of wootz steel? It's the same as the famous Syrian steel that was exported to Europe during the Middle Ages, and it was first developed in South India. Same with Indian mathematics and the modern numeral system; they weren't developed by the Arabs, but the Arabs adopted them and later spread them to Europe.

I owe my modern life to sleeping Indians? Sure...

"We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made."

- Albert Einstein

There is a little Western alliance called NATO that holds 80% of the world's firepower. What is it in the East? The SCO that can't even stop genocide in its own backyard?

NATO and SCO are both collections of sovereign states with their own laws, customs, government, etc.

They are not politically unified. They are just allied with each other because they share certain common interests.

And now the peoples of the West are living lives of luxury and peace while the peoples of the East live in war, poverty and oppression. I will take my Western life any day, and so would anyone in the East!

Yes, they would.

But I hope they wouldn't need to in the future. I am working towards that goal.

History is always being made. Change is always occurring.