Upgraded mirage 2000 and upgraded mig 29 against F16 block 52

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by ashdoc, Apr 1, 2012.

  1. ashdoc

    ashdoc Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,768
    Likes Received:
    965
    Can the upgraded mirage 2000 and mig 29 fight the Block 52 version of the F 16 ? Or do we need the Sukhoi for that ??
     
  2.  
  3. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    12,830
    Likes Received:
    7,524
    Location:
    Podigai Hills.
    Mirage 2000 is used for a completely different role AFAIK. But Mig 29 can kick F16's ass anytime :D.

    But Su- 30's are for an entirely different role . Their main adversaries will be from China:sad:
     
  4. Vishwarupa

    Vishwarupa Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    2,208
    How about Mig29 kicking J(Joke) series planes. Is Mig29 only restricted to Pak?
     
  5. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    12,830
    Likes Received:
    7,524
    Location:
    Podigai Hills.
    I dont know that much about the effectiveness of Mig- 29s against the Joke series. Only technos can comment on it. But as far as i can logic and reason it out. Mig 29 must be superior to J10 and inferior to J11(since it is a derivative of Su 27):notsure:
     
  6. ashdoc

    ashdoc Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,768
    Likes Received:
    965
    you mean to say sukhoi wont be used in a war against pak ?? certainly they will be used .

    mig 29 can kick ass of f16 in a WWR engagement . BUt what about BVR ?
     
  7. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    12,830
    Likes Received:
    7,524
    Location:
    Podigai Hills.
    Su 30s will be used alright but their main deployment will be in the eastern sector against the Chinese.

    I think In BVR too Migs will have the edge :notsure:

    but i am no expert in these regards and i wont pretend to be one:sad::tsk:
     
  8. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,233
    Likes Received:
    3,896
    Location:
    Holy Hell
    World over Mirage-2000 pilots say they have an advantage in dog fights within the first minute against a F-16. Whereas Indian Mig-29 pilots say they beat the IAF Mirage-2000s in dog fights consistently.

    So, it all depends on who the pilot is.

    Pakis can say they have better pilots. But they miss the fact that our pilots on Mirage-2000 and Mig-29 are veterans.

    In tech and specswise, all three aircraft are similar. The MKI is even higher, but in a dog fight it does not matter as much except for a few key parameters.

    The Mirage-2000 pilots will have the most advanced HMD(Topsight I) followed by JHMCS on the F-16. Mig-29 has the Sh-3UM-1 while MKI has SURA-K(to be replaced by Topsight I).

    All three carry reasonably advanced close range missile. But the Mirage-2000 will have the better one, MICA IR while the Aim-9L(F-16) and R-73/74(Mig-29/MKI) are more or less the same in capability.

    As for engines, the F-16 Block 52 has the best engine and T/W ratio followed by Mig-29 and Mirage-2000. MKI's depends on the configuration is it flying in. At 25-50% fuel, the MKI will be a beast.
     
    ADITYA MAYUKH, Mad Indian and uss like this.
  9. pankaj nema

    pankaj nema Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2009
    Messages:
    3,454
    Likes Received:
    1,410
    The Mirage 2000 after upgradation will be the BEST Mirage 2000 ever even better than Mirage 2000- 9
    The Mirage 2000 will have ICMS ie Integrated Counter measures System MK 4
    and RDY 3 radar

    It has been clearly said that it will be equivalent to F 16 Block 60
    which was offered to India which itself is better than F16 Block 52

    And Mig 29 after upgradation is getting Zhuk ME radar and Virgilius EW suite and some other things

    But YES both Mirage 2000 and Mig 29 UPG will kill F16 block 52

    That was the whole purpose of going for these upgradations ie to lessen the dependence on Su 30 mki
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2012
  10. pankaj nema

    pankaj nema Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2009
    Messages:
    3,454
    Likes Received:
    1,410
    The sale of F16 block 52 to Pakistan was announced in 2005 by USA

    That is when IAF seriously began its upgradation plans of both Mig29 and Mirage 2000

    Around the same time it was clear that to nuetralise the Chinese threat of J 10 ;Su 27 and Su 30
    it would REQUIRE the use of Su 30 mki by the IAF

    Hence in order to keep the Mig 29and the Mirage 2000 as deadly platforms capable of killing the Paki F16
    this whole upgradation work has been taken up
     
    Patriot, Mad Indian and ashdoc like this.
  11. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,233
    Likes Received:
    3,896
    Location:
    Holy Hell
    There is not much of a difference between Mirage-2000-9 and Mirage-2000-5 Mk2. Same plane different names with some UAE specific items. But yeah, it will have more modern equipment like new weapons, HMS, avionics etc.

    Mirage-2000-5 Mk2 is an equivalent to the Block 52 F-16, not Block 60. Block 60 has an AESA and a very powerful engine. Mirage-2000-5 Mk2 has none of these.

    Mig-29 will not get the Virgilius. It will have a Russian pod from what I know. Only Trishul reported Virgilius for Mig-29, but that may most probably be wrong information. Good if it is true, then it would push it past the Block 52s capabilities.

    The upgrade program was not initiated because the PAF bought new F-16s. The upgrade program is a routine thing which is to be expected for any aircraft in IAF.
     
    gokussj9, Mad Indian, sob and 2 others like this.
  12. pankaj nema

    pankaj nema Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2009
    Messages:
    3,454
    Likes Received:
    1,410
    The upgrade would not have happened just like that . Without upgrades BOTH Mig 29 and
    Mirage 2000 would have become redundant and IAF would have to rely solely on Su 30 mki

    Su 30 mki numbers will come up only slowly maximum 24 to 30 per year

    Given the way the Chinese are moving towards an ALL 4 th Generation aircraft in its PLAAF ;
    Pakis getting Block 52 and J 10 B in near future IAF had NO option but to swallow the expensive pill
    of upgradation

    And IAF was happy with Mig 21 Bison upgrades which gave a TOUGH time To USAF in
    Exercises Cope India 2004 and 2005

    So Mid life upgrades of Mig 27 and Jaguar were also taken up

    The modern aircraft such as Block 52 and better Air defences ; AWACS etc would have made
    both Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 totally useless ONLY capable of taking on the JF 17
     
  13. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,233
    Likes Received:
    3,896
    Location:
    Holy Hell
    According to the ACM, if an aircraft has life still left, then it will be upgraded. Mirage-2000 and Mig-29 were expected to undergo Mid Life upgrades since a long time, even before PAF even considered buying Block 52s.

    That kind of number will end this year. From next year onwards only one assembly line will rpovide 16 aircraft a year. The last batch of MKIs from Russia will be delivered this year for the last time.

    The PAF F-16 As and Bs are being upgraded to Block 40 standards. It is the same reason. There is life left in the airframe and are hence being upgraded. Upgrades aren't expensive. The F-16s came at $8million per aircraft. Mig-29s are coming at $15Million. Compared to these two the Mirage-2000 is coming at $40-50million which is considered expensive, but still significantly less considering the 2005 price for F-16 is $80Million. I guess the upgrade price for Mirage-2000 includes servicing, maintenance, spares and training. So, it is still a fair deal.

    China is a rich country with far greater resources. But the upgrade deal has nothing to do with China either. MLUs are part and parcel of any aircraft.
     
  14. pankaj nema

    pankaj nema Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2009
    Messages:
    3,454
    Likes Received:
    1,410
    The upgrade deal of IAF 's Mirage 200 and Mig 29 is DEFINITELY linked to BOTH the PAF's and PLAAF's
    modernisation and expansion plans

    Mirage 2000 upgrade was signed tp pave the way for Kaveri Snecma 95 kn new K 10 engine for AMCA

    And maybe IAF had already decided on Rafale

    So Mirage upgrade deal made it possible to FURTHER sweeten the Rafale pricing

    Mirage upgradation was the CARROT for Rafale to bring down their prices
     
  15. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,233
    Likes Received:
    3,896
    Location:
    Holy Hell
    Nice conspiracy theories.
     
  16. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    12,830
    Likes Received:
    7,524
    Location:
    Podigai Hills.
    What about the comparative turn rates, sustained and continuous of these birds?
     
  17. Sam2012

    Sam2012 Tihar Jail Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    205
    Location:
    Bangalore
    Even u upgraded Su-50FGFA it is no match to PAF & PLAAF F-16 , Jf-17 & J-10 they are simply invisible ;)
     
  18. Bheeshma

    Bheeshma Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
    Messages:
    916
    Likes Received:
    375
    When LCA-Mk2 arrives with GE414 it will be enough for all the Joke series including J-10 A/B/C etc. The J-11 is just a Su-27 with lesser capabilities than the russian ones.
     

Share This Page