United States backtracks on order of Javelin missile sale to India

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by Drsomnath999, Jun 5, 2012.

  1. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    A dangerous flashpoint in United States-India relations faces visiting US Secretary of Defence, Leon Panetta, who faces tough questions from Indian officials on Tuesday. The US State Department has slashed India’s request for Javelin anti-tank missiles, offering instead a smaller quantity that Washington sources say is “less than half of what India has requested for.”

    Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials are furious that Washington, an avowed strategic partner, has pared down India’s requirement of Javelin missiles, even while arguing that defence sales are a cornerstone of the US-Indian strategic relationship.

    “This (US reduced offer) is a deal killer. Washington will not dictate the quantity of weaponry we need. This will severely damage the prospects of US vendors in future arms contracts,” a South Block official told Business Standard.



    This unexpected rebuff stems from the US Department of Political-Military Affairs, a State Department office that examines the political fallout of proposed US arms sales. Pol-Mil Affairs, as this department is called, often nixes or curtails arms sales because they might “destabilise the regional military balance.”

    Neither the US Embassy in New Delhi, nor the Ministry of External Affairs (MEA), is prepared to reveal the reason provided by Washington for slashing the Indian request. The Ministry of External Affairs and the MoD have not responded to requests for comments.

    US Embassy spokesperson, Peter Vrooman, said, “We don’t discuss individual sales. Secretary Panetta looks forward to having an exchange with the Government of India on a broad range of issues.”

    Andrew Shapiro, the Assistant Secretary of State for Political-Military Affairs, had told Business Standard, in an exclusive interaction during his visit to New Delhi on April 17, that Washington had cleared the transfer of technology for manufacturing the Javelin missile in India. Given that readiness to transfer high-end technology, the curbs placed by Washington on the missile numbers remain inexplicable.

    The FGM-148 Javelin, built by US companies Lockheed Martin and Raytheon, is one of the two anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) that the Indian Army is evaluating for its 350-odd infantry battalions. The other is the Spike, built by Israeli company, Rafael. These are both shoulder-launched, “fire-and-forget” ATGMs, which means that they autonomously track their targets after they are fired by a two-man crew.

    Both missiles are scheduled to come to India for user evaluation trials later this year. However, the Javelin has already impressed the Indian Army. During joint exercises with the US Army, Indian missile crews have fired ten Javelin missiles. All ten hit their targets.

    The US industry, which has heavy stakes in a successful Javelin sale to India, is sharply critical of the State Department for curtailing the Indian request. “Offering a reduced number of missiles will almost certainly kill the Javelin deal; in fact it seems to almost be designed to be so. It seems as if Hillary Clinton herself remains unconvinced about the India relationship and is trying to set a different tone,” complains an industry member.

    A key US frustration in the defence relationship has been New Delhi’s refusal to sign three defence cooperation agreements that Washington has pressed for: a Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA); a Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement for Geo-spatial Cooperation (BECA); and a Logistics Support Agreement (LSA). New Delhi believes that signing these agreements would put it overtly in the US camp, diluting its “multi-aligned” foreign policy that emphasises strong relations with multiple foreign powers.

    There are also growing frustrations in Washington over India’s resistance to allow US “end-user” inspections of weaponry sold to Indian security forces. New Delhi regards end-user monitoring as a violation of sovereignty.
    United States backtracks on order of Javelin missile sale to India | idrw.org
     
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  3. Bangalorean

    Bangalorean Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Make it clear that there will be no "end-user inspections", ever. I hope we have made this clear in unequivocal terms. I am not sure why there are "growing frustrations in Washington" about this - don't sell stuff if you don't agree with the conditions, simple.
     
  4. noob101

    noob101 Regular Member

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    Unkils policy of "not destabilizing regions" makes little sense to me in this case... if it takes 20,000 missiles to have an overwhelming edge over PA then the region is already destabilized... when they were willing to sell 126 f16/ f18 or even eventually f35's without "destabilizing the region" how the hell are a few missiles going to make more of a difference than selling 6 squardrons of aircraft that are far far better than what the PAF has...
     
  5. sukhish

    sukhish Senior Member Senior Member

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    the state department is filled with cold war era people, they still try to use this strategic balance theory. this will fade away. if U.S does not want to supply us, that is there choice. we will develop our own. anyways India U.S ties will take lot of time and effort. India is in no hurry. if and when U.S feels confortable we can go ahead.
     
  6. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    If Javelins are bought by India, it will give an devastating punch for the Indian Army for the Concept of what is known as the Cold Start.

    It will destroy whatever chances the Pak armour may have to halt the limited offensive.

    That might be the belief held by the US.
     
  7. sukhish

    sukhish Senior Member Senior Member

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    so what does the U.S want ? it is still trying to balance India pakistan
     
  8. hitesh

    hitesh New Member

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    NOW ROAD CLEAR FOR SPIKE AGTM
     
  9. hitesh

    hitesh New Member

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    Specifications FGM-148 Javelin[​IMG]
    Weight Missile: 11.8 kg (26 lb)[1]
    CLU: 6.4 kg (14.1 lb)
    Length Missile: 1.1 m (43 in)
    Launch tube: 1.2 m (47 in)
    Diameter Missile: 127 mm (5.0 in)
    Launch tube: 142 mm (5.6 in)
    Crew 2
    Effective range 75 to 2500 m
    Warhead Tandem shaped charge HEAT
    Warhead weight 8.4 kg (18.5 lb)[2]
    Detonation
    mechanism Impact force
    Engine Solid fuel rocket
    Guidance
    system Imaging infrared (IIR)



    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Specifications Spike[​IMG]
    Weight Spike-ER from helicopter:

    • Missile in canister: 34 kg (74 lb 15 oz)
    • Launcher: 55 kg (121 lb 4 oz)
    • Launcher + 4 missiles: 187 kg (412 lb 4 oz)
    Spike-MR/LR from ground:[1]
    • Missile round: 14 kg (30 lb 14 oz)
    • Command & launch unit (CLU): 5 kg (11 lb 0 oz)
    • Tripod: 2.8 kg (6 lb 3 oz)
    • Battery: 1 kg (2 lb 3 oz)
    • Thermal sight: 4 kg (8 lb 13 oz)
    Length 1,670 mm (5 ft 6 in) (Missile w/launcher)
    Diameter 170 mm (6.7 in) (Missile w/launcher)
    Rate of fire Ready to launch in 30 seconds, reload in 15 seconds
    Maximum range 800 to 25,000 m (870 to 27,000 yd) depending on version
    Sights 10× optical sight
    Warhead Tandem-charge HEAT warhead
    Detonation
    mechanism Impact
    Engine Solid-fuel rocket
    Guidance
    system Infrared homing – Electro Optical (CCD, IR or Dual CCD/IIR), Passive CCD or dual CCD/IIR seeker
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
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  10. Archer

    Archer Regular Member

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    Very true sir!

    The IA will overnight have its anti tank abilities boosted by a huge amount if every unit or two carries a couple of Javelins. That would mean the firepower carried by the IA is enhanced.

    If the US cannot supply us these. Then enough - buy the Spike and buy it in number and make it locally.

    Spike is in widespread service so should be decently reliable.
    Spike (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    This incidentally is what Defense News stated:

    Defense News reports that the Indian Army is about to order Spike missiles and peripheral equipment in a $1 billion deal. Indian Ministry of Defence officials told the magazine that the order is for 321 launchers, 8,356 missiles, and 15 training simulators, and peripheral equipment.[31]

    This is in all probability, the same deal for which Javelin was competing.

    321 launchers seems an underestimate. Assuming India reequips its battalions at the rate of 4 launchers per unit (an underestimate even there) based on (Bharat Rakshak :: Land Forces Site - Infantry Battalion Structure looking at the RCL).

    Thats some 80 battalions!

    The advantage of the Javelin versus the Spike IMO - I havent researched either system in detail but it seems to be the case is that the Javelin is a more flexible system than the Spike. Range upto 2.5 km, minimum of 75m, versus the Spike which has two missiles -the MR (2.5 km range but minimum range is more) for SR, you need the Spike SR which ranges upto 800meters.

    Compare: Both J and S-MR have a sight which is attached to the missile tube and retained. The tube is discarded. I presume it is this sight which is being referred to as the launcher.

    Javelin:File:FGM-148 Javelin - ID 030206-M-5753Q-004.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Spike MR:http://defense-update.com/images_lr/spike_mr_team.jpg
     
  11. Archer

    Archer Regular Member

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    Ok, this deal seems different: Rafael in $1b Indian anti-tank missile deal - Globes

    These are clearly Spike MR, and based on a quick estimate, probably intended to supplant those Milan2 equipped vehicles which are not receiving the Milan 2T. Russian vehicles quite clearly mean BMPs. 321 launchers seems sufficient in that case. Probably SF Jongas/Jeeps too which are often seen with the Milan launcher otherwise!
     
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  12. Archer

    Archer Regular Member

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    So, if this Javelin deal was for infantry and the IA holding is of ~40K odd missiles, out of 80K authorized per media reports - and say half of that is for Javelin since it should be easily able to supplant/replace Milan 2 requirement, we are clearly looking at anywhere from ~15K to 30 K missiles for the Army. This was clearly a huge deal!

    Other reports are confusing and make the point that both these deals are the same but even so thats 8000 missiles at the very least. Silly of the US if they indeed said no.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
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  13. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    Sir, what happened to DODOs? They have been promisisng manportable ATGM to IA for last 25 years ! Phus Phus .... !
     
  14. Mr.Ryu

    Mr.Ryu Regular Member

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    It's ok if they not sell us the missile we can always have another source to get another similar missile may be little low on reliability but NO WAY we give in to their tactics of End user agreement :bs: where they come and look at where we keep missile and how we use it after we got them.

    They give Puki weapons that they dont use against Taliban and puki send it to Iran and NK and make money but the doubt us :( let it be but no way we agree to their EUA ever end of the day.
     
  15. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Its looks like the Pentagon and the US defence industry wants to sell the Javelins and its only the state dept. that is opposed to it. IF the "destablising the region" rhetoric is correct, then it could refer to China as well as Pakistan. Just like China is sensitive to defence deals with Taiwan, it won't be surprising if it meddles in defence deals with the US.

    However, another part of the same report says that the US is interested in local manufacturing of Javelin missiles as well. So its a bit confusing. Maybe its a tactic to force India to sign BECA, CISMOA e.t.c.? In any case, it would be a severe drawback given that the IA is clearly impressed by this missile during the trials and decided on buying this while it rejected the SPike ATGMs as far back as 2010
    http://www.defensenews.com/article/...a-Chooses-U-S-Built-Javelin-Anti-Tank-Missile
     
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  16. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    Can someone tell what is happening with Spike missile deal.

    As per wiki
     
  17. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  18. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    Does the Spike come under IMI!! which got banned for 10years!!!!

    How many are US ready to offer!!!
     
  19. jackhammer2

    jackhammer2 Regular Member

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    No Spike is Rafale's product

    Spike is a fourth generation[2] man-portable fire-and-forget anti-tank guided missile with tandem-charged HEAT warhead, developed and designed by the Israeli company Rafael Advanced Defense Systems

    Spike (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
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  20. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    How many Javelin's India asked for, and How many US is ready to give???
     
  21. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    EUM contract has already been signed. CISMOA, LSA and BECA are left, but I don't think we will sign these. It is entirely unnecessary from India's POV because we can replace radios and communication equipment with our own.

    We don't want US forces in India, so LSA is not necessary too.

    Rafael survived the ban because of Barak project. Without it they would have been banned as well. I am not sure whether any new deals with them will be entertained beyond what has already been signed like the 8000+ Spikes.

    That would make Javelin the only missile available. So the US may force our hands to cancel the deal, start afresh and stick a much larger price tag on it. Who knows?
     
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