Understanding Deobandis, Barelvis, Wahabis, and Shias

[Yusuf]

If people like you(liberal and progressive ones) are not willing to take it up, I don't know who will

I just now lost any hope I had for reform in Islam

I do my bit as someone who was born into the faith & from whatever little I know. I was never interested in religion or topics on it.

On Twitter I am busy exposing Islamists. But then that's that.

Main stream media chasing TRPs will not project or give space to liberals.

 

[blue marlin]

This thread has gone as usual, yawn

what is it exactly do you wanting to see?
trolling, fireworks, aggressive responses, a good debate etc...?

 

[blue marlin]

I am sure I can expect you to be fair and elaborate more than mere generalization?

Surely, you cannot cay that Sufis are barbaric. The more I see, I can say there are quite a few sects who are pretty much liberal. There are the Bohras, who are one of the most progressive. I have friends from the former Soviet Union, who are nominally Muslims, and great guys to hang out with. There are plenty of posts in the Syria thread. How do you think so many minorities survived in Syria and Iran?

Much of the world's problems with Muslims are due to:

• Saudi Theocrackpots spreading their Wahhabism to the rest of the world.
• They are funding mosques, madrassas, and teaching people their barbaric ways.
• They are poisoning the minds of those who would otherwise be liberal Muslims.
• The problem is that Wahhabism survives only through propagation of fear, because at the core of it, it is essentially empty, and Wahhabis know that. While several Muslim countries, including Sunni majority Egypt have a lot of history and culture to be proud of, the Saudis have none. Whatever they had, they have either destroyed, or have kept hidden.

yes... finally you got it there lad. the saudi's they think there are the rulers of islam. but in reality there are just a*s licking, maniacs. as a sunni i find arab governments very weird strange.

 

[Mad Indian]

I do my bit as someone who was born into the faith & from whatever little I know. I was never interested in religion or topics on it.

On Twitter I am busy exposing Islamists. But then that's that.

Main stream media chasing TRPs will not project or give space to liberals.

May be you are right. But more than media, it is the mosques and the establishment which needs change.

After all, if an unorganized religion like Hinduism can reform, I see no reason for organised religions like Islam to not reform.

Catholics of the 15-16th century were as barbaric as Isis today. But what happened next? They had Reformation which led to Protestantism and then to counter that, Counter reformation was started by catholics to ensure their survival by weeding out the corruption in the church and paved way for modernity in Europe


This is something which Islam needs and it must come from religious organisations and Muslims themselves as a top down movement. But still it does not happen, with no sign of it starting anytime soon.

And of course, when subjected to criticism, however valid it is, leftists and the supposed moderates among islam hide behind the word 'islamophobia" to cut off any criticism of Islam and hence killing any chance for the Muslim world to even realise the deep the shit they are in , precluding any reform any time soon.

I will say this again, we got rid of sati/caste discrimination by vilifying it and talking against it, not by saying "this is not true sati" or "this is not how I practice religion".

 

[asingh10]

No shortage of pompous Mindus in liberal circles who want to teach Muslims their own religion. Muslims find it down right condescending (and rightly so), try telling a Wahabi on his face that his creed is wrong and Sufism is the right path. They'll tell your kaffir ass to bugger off. Reminds me of the story of Sikander Lodhi & the foolish Brahmin. The Brahmin was preaching that both Hinduism and Islam teach the same thing. Sultan Sikander Lodhi then asked him to accept Islam, since it was the same as his current faith. The Brahmin refused, since staying a Hindu was as good as converting to Islam. For his sophistry, the Brahmin was burnt alive.

https://books.google.com/books?id=8XnaL7zPXPUC&pg=PA87#v=onepage&q&f=false

Moral of the story for Mindus is mind your own business, quit looking at grey shades of Abrahamisms & trying to act like 'begani shaadi me abdullah diwana' by batting for 'true islam'. You look like fools and the Islamists take it as a sign of naivety.

 

[Mad Indian]

yes... finally you got it there lad. the saudi's they think there are the rulers of islam. but in reality there are just a*s licking, maniacs. as a sunni i find arab governments very weird strange.

Yes, its everyone else's fault except that of the Muslims

Its not like parents and the society they grew up in has any responsibility in raising them to be normal or anything like that
No. Not at all. Its all Saudi fault

Next , go rape a white woman like a good paki and blame it on Saudis who brainwashed you.

 

[Mad Indian]

Well, leftist historians will tell you even Aurangzeb was a great guy. The fact that he murdered the 9th Sikh guru and the children of 10th guru is enough for Sikhs. Hindus wanna look at grey shades though.

You don't have to be apologetic about these self respect lacking swines. These leftist hindus lack self respect and they will glorify anything to justify their that everything was hunky dory and for their cultural Marxist bs of moral relativism

 

[Mad Indian]

No shortage of pompous Mindus in liberal circles who want to teach Muslims their own religion. Muslims find it down right condescending (and rightly so), try telling a Wahabi on his face that his creed is wrong and Sufism is the right path. They'll tell your kaffir ass to bugger off. Reminds me of the story of Sikander Lodhi & the foolish Brahmin. The Brahmin was preaching that both Hinduism and Islam teach the same thing. Sultan Sikander Lodhi then asked him to accept Islam, since it was the same as his current faith. The Brahmin refused, since staying a Hindu was as good as converting to Islam. For his sophistry, the Brahmin was burnt alive.

https://books.google.com/books?id=8XnaL7zPXPUC&pg=PA87#v=onepage&q&f=false

Moral of the story for Mindus is mind your own business, quit looking at grey shades of Abrahamisms & trying to act like 'begani shaadi me abdullah diwana' by batting for 'true islam'. You look like fools and the Islamists take it as a sign of naivety.

BTW, have you actually talked with sunni muslims on Sufism? They will say one thing only, - Sufism is not true Islam and was only a conversion tool and should not be followed as the true path.

 

[blue marlin]

Yes, its everyone else's fault except that of the Muslims

Its not like parents and the society they grew up in has any responsibility in raising them to be normal or anything like that
No. Not at all. Its all Saudi fault

Next , go rape a white woman like a good paki and blame it on Saudis who brainwashed you.

im sunni and i hate arab countries/governments.

you go rape tea man and shit in a field, if this is what an indian's behave like then i might just cancel my trip there

 

[Mad Indian]

you go rape tea man and shit in a field, if this is what an indian's behave like then i might just cancel my trip there

Spoken like a typical porki rapist pos. I just pointed out how adsurb your argument on Saudis was and you resort to ad hominem

Frankly, don't come here. We don't want your kind here.

Shitting in the field>>>>> raping a child. But then again, you being an ardent follower of a pedo, might think otherwise. So follow your fellow porkis in rotherham

 

[asingh10]

BTW, have you actually talked with sunni muslims on Sufism? They will say one thing only, - Sufism is not true Islam and was only a conversion tool and should not be followed as the true path.

There is an eternal quest for "one true way" among all Abrahamism's. They will accuse each other of imbibing pagan beliefs and "innovation". All of them will strive for "purity" which means expunging anything that is deemed as adulteration in the "one true way". There was a Puritan Reformation in Christianity, which was in part the "cleansing" of European pagan syncretism from Christianity, all the way down to taking Hebrew names. Like wise, many Muslims are now attracted by Salafism because it is apparently free of any "innovation" and resembles Islam as it was followed by the early Muslims.

 

[blue marlin]

Spoken like a typical porki pos. I just pointed out how adsurb your argument on Saudis was and you resort to ad hominem

Frankly, don't come here. We don't want your kind here.

Shitting in the field>>>>> raping a child. But then again, you being an ardent follower of a pedo, might think otherwise.

sine your calling me paki..... can call you chinese?
technically we came with force, hehehehe

beside we dont want you here too, you will give a 5 year old std's.

 

[sabari]

im sunni and i hate arab countries/governments.

you go rape tea man and shit in a field, if this is what an indian's behave like then i might just cancel my trip there

Well then take a trip Pakistan dont forget to grow bears other wise Taliban will Kill you in name of God for water,many wife,which they get in heaven

 

[asingh10]

Here's another sufi who gets invited as "moderate" to Western tv shows.

Ghazwa-e-Hind Hadith by Shaykh-ul-Islam Dr Tahir ul Qadri



Keep the honesty and objectivity flowing folks....

 

[Mad Indian]

sine your calling me paki..... can call you chinese?
technically we came with force, hehehehe
View attachment 6230
beside we dont want you here too, you will give a 5 year old std's.

That's what your Mohammed did- fuck a 9yr old and which is what you porkis did in Rotherham. No wonder the whole world thinks your kind is barbarians

 

[pmaitra]

Almost all sects of Islam are barbaric compared to the modern religions like Xtianity , Buddhism, Hinduism etc as practiced now. Are Shias any less violent than Wahabbis? Do they hate Kaffirs any less?




This is the problem with lefties, they use different yardstick for different sects, for the apologetic nonsense. Are sufis modern as other religions? Do they allow criticisml and free speech against their religion. If not no.

Wahabbis are psychopaths and that makes lesser psychopaths look sane.

Even then it doesn't answer my original question- why is it my effing problem? If the problem is within their sects, they have confront it and reform it themselves.



Another typical leftist double speak. Soviet union achieved it by crushing Islam within its borders and by making Russian Orthodox Church the only recognised religion within them. Will you guys allow it here?




Bohras are a teeny tiny minority compared to other sects and they are not considered Muslims by their own majority. I have no obligation to put up with wahabbi mental cases who are the majority just because one or two muslims, who are bohras ,are normal.

• Coming to Christianity, you might as well give those people credit who chose the New Testament instead of the Bible.
• Coming to Buddhism, before the PLA took over Tibet, they used to carry out hand limb chopping quite frequently. The good thing is, the communists came and put an end to those barbaric practices, and the bad thing is they use their own type of barbarity to suppress the people of Tibet.
• Coming to Hinduism, it is far more reformed, but not entirely. We have sporadic caste based violence as well. Of course, it took the "anti-national" CPI(ML) and MCC to neutralize the Bhumihar/Rajputs, and show what equality means, where apparently the law enforcement, administration, and the judiciary, the so called instruments of the law and the constitution failed. Ever heard of "Bhotmange?"
• Are Shias any less violent than Sunnis? Yes. Perhaps not in the past, but right now, yes.
• The problem with right-wing loonies is that they see leftists everywhere. Don't listen to the voices in your head, and don't equate leftism with communism, and I am not going to waste my time educating you, since you are emotionally oriented otherwise.
• The Communist Party of the Soviet Union was very much against the Russian Orthodox Church, and please, you are one of those people who are notorious for spreading falsehoods about anything related to Communism. Reform yourself, or else, you are just about as bigoted as those you are criticizing.

Is owaisis kutta also a wahabbi? I heard he is a shia. May be he is a wahabbi shia. Besides, its not my damn problem. The Muslims themselves have to come out and act against them if they want to be perceived as something other than barbarians





The amount of nonsense in this statement is incredible. Why do parsis exist in India? And is this RSS concoction:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Bahá'ís

And does the Islamic barbarity start only at discovery of oil?

Were Muslims any less barbaric before that? You can apologise and rationalise all their atrocities to suit your ideological stance . but I or the billion other Hindus have no such compulsion and as such have no reason to engage in this nonsense

• Owaisi is a Shia, and would be a kaafir to the Wahhabis. There is no such thing as Wahhabi Shia.
• It is not my damn problem either.
• Muslims themselves have to come out and reform themselves, and they do, and when they do, they are persecuted by their fellow Muslims. I wish to point out, which I suspect will bounce off your head like a coconut bounces off the back of a rhino, and I quote from Wiki, "On 18 August 2015, Palmyra's retired antiquities chief Khaled al-Asaad was beheaded by ISIL after being tortured for a month to get information about the city and its treasures; al-Asaad refused to give any information to his captors." Keep ranting that there is no moderate Muslim, as you have already implied earlier in the first quoted post above. The problem with right-wing loonies is that they will never defend moderate Muslims, and go not to live in denial that they do not exist. Acknowledging the truth takes the wind out of the right-wingers' sails.
• My ideological stance is very similar to the things I admire, and one of them is the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. They banned genital mutilation, and I support it, because no healthy man should be obligated to hack off a part of his salamander just because Abraham had a problem impregnating Sarai. No RSS or RSS-ka-baap can do this ever. They will only come to online fora and squeal like a mouse caught in a mouse-trap. I might add, even the Chinese Communist Party prohibits fasting, which however, I do not support.

If you are a hindu you are an Untermensch to them ... I'm too lazy to dig up history so do a little googling yourselves.

Talking of Untermench, google "Bhotmange." I am too lazy to do it for ya'.

You don't have to be apologetic about these self respect lacking swines. These leftist hindus lack self respect and they will glorify anything to justify their that everything was hunky dory and for their cultural Marxist bs of moral relativism

Again, repeating drivel doesn't turn drivel into heavenly manna. Don't bother about Marxism. You'll have to go through seven cycles of birth and rebirth to even understand what it is.

[MOD Edit: Forked conversation continued here.]

 

[cannonfodder]

Following important point made by Mad Indian had been removed from this post .

This is extremely important point that Muslims suppress their own reformers. Most of them keep running their entire life from getting persecuted. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Majid Nawaz(quilliam foundation)
face regular death threat. Even if there is some benign sect in Islam community, if they cannot dare to reform and get enough support for their ideas they are immaterial. When extremist Islam will unleash they will simply turn their head and look the other way claiming no responsibility(this is exactly what is happening). It is strange situation where punishment for any criticism for this religion gets death threats and sometimes.....

There are problems in every religion and none is perfect. But all religions change through criticism. Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism can be subject to criticism and hence reforms is possible. Hinduism followers will transform and change for good. Therefore, it is unfair to put 3 religions into the same basket as Islam.

Again not my damn problem. Hindus dint kill their Raja Ram Mohan Roy, or Vivekananda, or their Periyar. Xtians didn't kill their Martin Luther or Calvin. But Muslims kill their reformers. There lies the difference.

 

[Mad Indian]

• Coming to Christianity, you might as well give those people credit who chose the New Testament instead of the Bible.

• Coming to Buddhism, before the PLA took over Tibet, they used to carry out hand limb chopping quite frequently. The good thing is, the communists came and put an end to those barbaric practices, and the bad thing is they use their own type of barbarity to suppress the people of Tibet.

• Coming to Hinduism, it is far more reformed, but not entirely. We have sporadic caste based violence as well. Of course, it took the "anti-national" CPI(ML) and MCC to neutralize the Bhumihar/Rajputs, and show what equality means, where apparently the law enforcement, administration, and the judiciary, the so called instruments of the law and the constitution failed. Ever heard of "Bhotmange

Not relevant now, as its all reformed today , while Hinduism is reforming as we speak. Islam is not. Which was precisely the point. So bogus argument, typical of a Marxist.

Are Shias any less violent than Sunnis? Yes. Perhaps not in the past, but right now, yes.

Owaisis kutta which wanted to kill all the Hindus was a Shia.

Besides, another Marxist bull shit point. Shias don't allow criticism and free speech either, both of which are hall marks of modernism.

The Communist Party of the Soviet Union was very much against the Russian Orthodox Church, and please, you are one of those people who are notorious for spreading falsehoods about anything related to Communism. Reform yourself, or else, you are just about as bigoted as those you are criticizing.

This is only point which you have made which is actually right. Let me rephrase what I should have said- USSR crushed Islam and only Orthodox was allow to exist, even if it was un recognised.


Still does not change the fact that Islam was crushed so the original point you made was another typical leftist useless point to begin with, since it cannot be applied in India without the leftist morons making a huge cry over it, typical of their double speak and hypocrisy.

Owaisi is a Shia, and would be a kaafir to the Wahhabis. There is no such thing as Wahhabi Shia.

precisely the point I made. Wahabbis are not the only psycho sect among them unlike what the apologetic shamelessly lie about.

Muslims themselves have to come out and reform themselves, and they do, and when they do, they are persecuted by their fellow Muslims. I wish to point out, which I suspect will bounce off your head like a coconut bounces off the back of a rhino, and I quote from Wiki, "On 18 August 2015, Palmyra's retired antiquities chief Khaled al-Asaad was beheaded by ISIL after being tortured for a month to get information about the city and its treasures; al-Asaad refused to give any information to his captors." Keep ranting that there is no moderate Muslim, as you have already implied earlier in the first quoted post above. The problem with right-wing loonies is that they will never defend moderate Muslims, and go not to live in denial that they do not exist. Acknowledging the truth takes the wind out of the right-wingers' sails.

Again not my damn problem. Hindus dint kill their Raja Ram Mohan Roy, or Vivekananda, or their Periyar. Xtians didn't kill their Martin Luther or Calvin. But Muslims kill their reformers. There lies the difference.

But then again for leftist apologists , these important differences does not matter. Ideological bs is more important for them

My ideological stance is very similar to the things I admire, and one of them is the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. They banned genital mutilation, and I support it, because no healthy man should be obligated to hack off a part of his salamander just because Abraham had a problem impregnating Sarai

again precisely my point. Leftist hypocrites here would oppose any thing done by the govt to modernise the Islam. More reason as to why Soviet examples can't be used for Indian context or the general context like you did or did you forget that you involved soviet union here?


I have edited out the most important parts of the rebuttal. And as usual, any irrelevant garbage reply with nonsequitors and sophistry typical of the leftists will be ignored by me.

 

[Screambowl]

I was thinking how can we use such sect to create Indian influence in South Asia, the way Saudi does it. More over keep Islamic fanatics in control.

 

[Mad Indian]

I was thinking how can we use such sect to create Indian influence in South Asia, the way Saudi does it. More over keep Islamic fanatics in control.

That's simple, kick them out. Isis and their sympathisers along with their families must be kicked out or shot dead in public. Very easy really