Unarmed Royal Navy destroyers: French missiles blamed

Discussion in 'International Politics' started by bhramos, Jun 29, 2010.

  1. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    Posted in Government, 7th June 2010 11:02 GMT

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    Ceremonies and celebrations took place in Portsmouth last week as the Royal Navy's second billion-pound-plus Type 45 destroyer, HMS Dauntless, was formally commissioned into the Service. Both Dauntless and her predecessor HMS Daring remain almost totally unarmed at the moment, following test failures which have meant that their primary armament cannot be accepted into service.

    Dauntless' commanding officer, Captain Richard Powell, had this to say:

    This is a great day for the Royal Navy and particularly for the crew who are all delighted to serve in this fantastic ship. Sailing past the Round Tower and into the Naval Base onboard HMS Dauntless was one of the proudest moments of my career and I am sure that the ship will continue to bring pride to the Royal Navy throughout her lifetime.
    The Type 45 Destroyers will form the backbone of the Royal Navy of the future. The ships are hugely versatile and they utilise cutting-edge technology to provide a first-class air defence capability...

    Unfortunately Captain Powell's ship does not as yet provide any significant air defence capability. The main reason for having a Type 45 destroyer is in order to get the benefit of its Sea Viper missile system, composed of the partly-British* Sampson fire-control radar and PAAMS weaponry, which fires French-made Aster missiles at airborne targets.

    Sea Viper is supposed to be able to defend against even the most dangerous aerial threats, such as the various widely-feared supersonic shipkiller missiles developed in Russia and since exported to China and India. The Sampson radar is mounted at the destroyer's masthead, allowing it to see as far over the horizon as is feasible from a surface ship - perhaps offering several tens of seconds' warning of an inbound supersonic sea-skimmer**. The Aster missiles of PAAMS are supposed to be able to launch exceptionally quickly, tip over extremely fast and accelerate to better than Mach 4 within 10 seconds.

    As recently as five years ago it was expected that the first Type 45 would be ready for frontline duty in 2007: that date subsequently slipped back to later this year, pushed by difficulties in development of Sea Viper.

    However the "final" test of Sea Viper last December was a failure, meaning that it had failed in tests two out of four times, and in fact HMSs Daring and Dauntless remain almost unarmed. All they have at the moment is a 4.5" gun turret, mainly useful for bombarding coastal targets, and a pair of light 30mm guns suitable for shooting up pirate dhows and the like.

    Details on the Sea Viper test failure and way ahead have been scant, but The Register has made persistent enquiries over the last few months. An MoD spokesperson has now supplied us with this statement:

    Production weaknesses identified in some batches of Aster missile have been corrected through minor re-design work and a programme of further test firings is now underway to demonstrate that the problems have been rectified.

    The MoD says it still expects to accept HMS Daring complete with Sea Viper into service at the current planned date, November this year, once ongoing test firings confirm that the Aster fix has been successful.

    Officials declined to answer our other question: Why is the MoD so confident that Sea Viper/Aster can defeat supersonic threats, as no test against a supersonic target has ever been announced?

    Given the official silence on this, it seems likely that the first time anyone finds out whether Sea Viper really can shoot down supersonic threats will be the first time a Type 45 finds itself under attack by BrahMos or Sunburn missiles. One former Royal Navy destroyer captain, discussing such a hypothetical engagement by a Type 45 in future (with its highly uncertain outcome) has commented to The Reg that "it would be rather unwise to put yourself in a situation like that, wouldn't it?"

    With two hundred sailors' lives and more than a billion pounds of taxpayers' money at stake, you have to agree with him. But if you aren't going to put the Type 45s in the way of supersonic missiles, you really have to wonder why you'd have them at all. ®

    Bootnotes

    *Computer processing is provided by Mercury Computer Systems of Massachusetts, for instance. One also notes that the ship's command system runs Windows 2000. Once again, hugely expensive "European/UK" equipment turns out to be full of American technology.

    **Though critics point out that its rotating scanners will tend to make it slower to recognise a threat. Other major navies use fixed arrays pointing in all directions for constant 360-degree coverage, though to be fair these are lower-mounted and thus unable to see as far as Sampson.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/07/dauntless_sea_viper_progress/
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2010
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  3. samarsingh

    samarsingh Regular Member

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    good to see some admiration for the Brahmos coming from the west...
     
  4. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    Brahmos is one of the most feared in West, as their is no counter part at present.
    so India should induct more Brahmos into IN, then F-22 will be sitting Ducks.


    Air Defence Destroyer (Type 45).
     
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  5. Soham

    Soham DFI TEAM Senior Member

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    What ?

    What does Brahmos have to do with Raptors ?

    Unless of course, you are suggesting that we load you up in SAM launchers and....
     
  6. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    sorry, i mean F-22p Frigates, not F-22 Raptors.
    i mean when such advanced Destroyers are feared for Brahmos, what could be the situation of F-22p Frigates in PN!!!
     
  7. samarsingh

    samarsingh Regular Member

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    Brahmos is awesome, but why is Russia not so keen to induct those, could be because they have longer range P700 Granits...
    India was initially interested in this longer range missile, but Russia being a signatory of Missile Technology Control Regime could not help in developing a missile with range > 300kms...
    hence the shorter range Brahmos evolved....
    A hypersonic version of this missile is under development ,
    hope there is some indigenous program for a longer range missile....
     
  8. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    What is funny about that, after the English Longbow barge missed two targets, French and Italian Horizons did test firings of their own missiles and they checked out fine. The problem appears to be more with the UK Sampson radar than the missiles themselves.
     
  9. Neil

    Neil Senior Member Senior Member

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    a billion pound and still no results....their projects are worst than DRDO's nag development.....which atleast hit a target during last test....!!
     
  10. StealthSniper

    StealthSniper Senior Member Senior Member

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    Yeah and they are supposed to be more advanced and efficent than India's defence organizations are. Maybe they are better at hiding stuff from the public than India is able to.
     
  11. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    MBDA COMPLETES FOUR SUCCESSFUL ASTER MISSILE FIRINGS IN LESS THAN A MONTH


    MBDA is pleased to announce the successful completion of a programme of firings to demonstrate the effectiveness of the Aster 30 missile. Over the last month, firings have been carried out from the Italian Orizzonte frigate “Andrea Doria”, the French Horizon frigate “Forbin” and the UK trials barge “Longbow” at two different ranges in the Mediterranean. The trials were conducted over a range of scenarios of steadily increasing complexity, culminating in a final trial featuring a salvo firing against a sea skimming target performing a high-g terminal manoeuvre. All the trials were fully successful with both the PAAMS ship equipment and Aster missiles operating as expected in each case. This draws to a close the complex and high intensity investigation launched within MBDA after problems encountered in two firing trials last year.

    Antoine Bouvier, Chief Executive Officer, said: “These successful firing trials demonstrate that MBDA has fully mastered the technical issue with the Aster strake that was uncovered last year on recent missile manufacturing. The trials have been completed in support of making sure our domestic customers are in position to deploy the full operational capability of the PAAMS(E) system with the French and Italian navies and the Sea Viper system with the Royal Navy later this year.

    http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/ref/scripts/newsFO_complet.php?lang=EN&news_id=322

    MBDA reports Aster 30 test success
    Tuesday, June 29, 2010

    The Aster 30 missiles intended for use in the Type 45 Destroyers' Sea Viper system will be ready later this year following the successful completion of test firings, manufacturer MBDA has announced.

    The missiles were due to be used on the Type 45 destroyers, but failures during testing, blamed on manufacturing defects, stalled the programme in late 2009. Now, the Aster 30 is said to have completed tests aboard the Italian Orizzonte frigate Andrea Doria, the French Horizon frigate Forbin and the UK's Longbow trials barge in the Mediterranean over the last month.

    "The trials were conducted over a range of scenarios of steadily increasing complexity, culminating in a final trial featuring a salvo firing against a sea skimming target performing a high-g terminal manoeuvre," the company announced in a statement.

    "All the trials were fully successful with both the PAAMS (principal anti-air missile system) ship equipment and Aster missiles operating as expected in each case. This draws to a close the complex and high intensity investigation launched within MBDA after problems encountered in two firing trials last year."

    Antoine Bouvier, CEO of MBDA, said: "These successful firing trials demonstrate that MBDA has fully mastered the technical issue with the Aster strake that was uncovered last year on recent missile manufacturing. The trials have been completed in support of making sure our domestic customers are in position to deploy the full operational capability of the PAAMS(E) system with the French and Italian navies and the Sea Viper system with the Royal Navy later this year."

    http://www.defencemanagement.com/news_story.asp?id=13369
     
  12. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    Even Hypersonic missiles of Brahmos developed with Russia, then would also have only range of 300km.
    after the experiance from Brahmos, India is using it in Nirbhay CM, later may be better versions,
    If the Hypersonic Missile project is success, after that experiance would lead to make India another better missile with some range.
     
  13. StealthSniper

    StealthSniper Senior Member Senior Member

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    Personally I think our new stealth destroyers are more beautiful and just as deadly as the TYPE 45 is (plus we can house 2 helicopters). I think the Indian Navy has made great strides and people accuse India of using foreign technology but don't realize that even Britain uses mostly American equipment for their command systems and they are supposedly more advanced than India is. So far the Indian Navy is progressing at a good rate and it won't take long before we can make fully indigenous ships and also indigenous equipment that will be as good as anything in the west. I am excited to see what India will be making 10 years from now.
     
  14. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    IN has good plans, MOD does not approve them, at present we are good rate, but not before 2020, 100% Indigenous ships are made.
    well we may not be able to make all systems best, but we can get the best systems from outside. to make IN best.
     
  15. StealthSniper

    StealthSniper Senior Member Senior Member

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    Yeah we are going to need foreign equipment for our ships for the time being, but I think that India will learn from these foreign systems and we will make our own improved indigenous version of these systems. That's why I think the Indian Navy is doing the best out of all the armed services, but we need to get MOD to be in sync with the Indian Navy and then the sky's the limit.
     
  16. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    you are correct, but Indian defence research is too slow, by the we learn from foreign system and make it, it will become outdated, there are somany reasons for that may be political will, funds, or Military leaders interest, so on.........
    they are two ways of research,
    first thing to make the best piece in the available in the market,
    second thing to make anti of the things available with enemy nations,
    India most of the Time follows first thing, while our neighbours follow the second thing.
     
  17. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    Out of 3 branches of Indian Armed forces Navy is most professional and disciplined. result is for everyone to see. They are the ones who is pushing for indigenousness of procurements and are promoting Indian equipment in most of there new vessels. Stealth frigate is latest example . Hope our Great Army learns from them.
     
  18. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    I personally hope that we improve Brahmos range to at least 500 KMs. Though its already deadly It will be deadlier.
     

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