Ukraine On Brink Of Missile Deal With India

[mayfair]

Informative and articulate as always p2p.

 

[john70]

Informative and articulate as always p2p.

True.. thanks p2p. For once I felt why is then india choosing it.

 

[p2prada]

Any time guys.

One more point to be added. There are various versions in the R-27 family.

The first two versions had semi active(SARH) and infrared(IR) seekers with a range of 70-80Km. Quite like the basic R-77 version.

The next two came with semi active and infrared seekers with a range of 120(IR)-130Km(SARH). They are basically the same as the first two, but with longer range with dual motors. Today they have newer seekers, supposedly updated after 2005.

Then came the R-27AE with an active seeker and a range of 130Km placing it in the Aim-120C-7 and RVV-SD class. But we don't know the status of the missile. There is a possibility it has already been developed, but we know it hasn't been inducted. Perhaps the captive market cannot afford it. Maybe we will know in time about the status of this version.

This was followed by the R-27EM, which has a semi active seeker. It's range is around 170Km, placing it in a similar range category as the Aim-120D(but nowhere as capable). Status of this version is also unknown, at least to me.

The last one is the R-27P/EP with ARM capability. This I have already mentioned. Range is 70Km for P and 110Km for EP.

Even though Pakistan has taken deliveries of 500 Aim-120C-5s. They are excellent missiles, but with the addition of Mica RF/IR and the R-27 family of missiles we will have a huge advantage both in numbers and the superiority of the platforms firing these missiles. With the induction of missiles like Meteor and RVV-SD, we may entirely overtake PAF and perhaps even PLAAF.

 

[Yusuf]

China too struck a deal with Ukraine to license produce this missile. India too looking at Ukraine. Whatever happened to our friends in Russia

 

[p2prada]

China too struck a deal with Ukraine to license produce this missile. India too looking at Ukraine. Whatever happened to our friends in Russia

Russia no longer manufactures the R-27. They are moving towards the R-77 family which is of superior design. During the time of the Soviet Union, the development bureau was in Russia and manufacturing facility in Ukraine. It is a product of the fall of the SU.

Ukraine has the rights for the missile.

 

[john70]

Any time guys.



Even though Pakistan has taken deliveries of 500 Aim-120C-5s. They are excellent missiles, but with the addition of Mica RF/IR and the R-27 family of missiles we will have a huge advantage both in numbers and the superiority of the platforms firing these missiles. With the induction of missiles like Meteor and RVV-SD, we may entirely overtake PAF and perhaps even PLAAF.

Excellent information..... It gives quiet a relief that overall pic of indian millitary is changing quiet fast to be able to deal with double threats pakis and chinis.

 

[john70]

They are moving towards the R-77 family which is of superior design.

can you elaborate. In which way the design of R 77 is superior.

 

[p2prada]

can you elaborate. In which way the design of R 77 is superior.

Even though the seeker head is smaller than R-27's, the acceleration, fuel burn time and maneuverability is superior to the R-27. The R-77 can also engage aircraft maneuvering at 12G while R-27 is restricted at 8G. R-27 is simply an older missile family and the R-77 is newer.

While the R-77 can equip itself with a semi active or IR seeker, it's primary seeker is an active seeker, which means the it carries an emitter that emits radar waves to pick up enemy aircraft.

In terms of overall design, both Aim-120 and R-77 are superior. However, R-27 provides capability that the R-77 and Aim-120 currently do not possess.

 

[Yusuf]

Russia no longer manufactures the R-27. They are moving towards the R-77 family which is of superior design. During the time of the Soviet Union, the development bureau was in Russia and manufacturing facility in Ukraine. It is a product of the fall of the SU.

Ukraine has the rights for the missile.

Which then begs the question, why did India go for R27 instead of R77

 

[Rahul92]

WTF now even missiles from UKRAINE

 

[john70]

What i am getting from your points in favour and against R 27 is that it has got very good seekers while engaging high maneurable targets is better with aim 120 and R 77.

Quoting you.." However, R-27 provides capability that the R-77 and Aim-120 currently do not possess."

Which capability ?

 

[p2prada]

Which then begs the question, why did India go for R27 instead of R77

The R-27 provides unique capabilities. It gives a range of 120Km to a missile that is mated to the OLS on the MKI as compared to R-77s 80Km range.

The way it works is simple. An IR seeker on the OLS picks up the target at a massive range, say 100+Km. A missile is fired without actually alerting the opposing aircraft. The OLS guides the missile towards the target using datalink until it reaches the missile's IR or SARH seeker range. Then the missile engages the target within the NEZ(No escape zone). During all this time, the enemy is clueless and the MKI is engaging the enemy without giving away it's position by turning on the radar, meaning the Bars is turned off during the time.

The R-77 works slightly differently when the radar is turned off. Once the R-77 reaches the aircraft, unlike the R-27, the R-77 starts emitting signals to track the fighter. While the R-27 did it without alerting the enemy, the R-77 did it while the enemy is alert. During Cope India 2004, The Su-30s engaged the F-15s using the OLS and was well documented.

Earlier the OLS could detect and track aircraft from 60-70Km. The new ones do it at nearly double the range. Therefore the R-27s range was also doubled to take advantage of the increased range.

Western experts say that infrared does not give ranging information(range), but the Soviets have no issues with it. So, it is possible we may know a way that negates the disadvantages of an infrared system or that we can use techniques that nullifies that effect. The French followed suit with the Mica IR(60Km range) for similar effect.

So, it makes sense to employ both R-27 and R-77. Btw, we are going to order the RVV-SD(which is a new model of the R-77) once ready. We also have our own domestic Astra program which is an equivalent to R-77. There is a chance we will see the RVV-SD and RVV-BD(200Km range: Aim-120D equivalent) with our first Super MKI, maybe this year itself.

 

[john70]

Hàts off, for a nice comparison and clarity.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Which then begs the question, why did India go for R27 instead of R77

There was a issue with R-77 in IAF..

Some R-77 batches purchased from Russia proved to be dud, Since then IAF looking at other BVR ..

Putting a big question mark on the performance of the Russian beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missiles with the Indian Air Force, an audit report by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has noted that nearly half the missiles tested either did not home in on targets during evaluations or failed ground tests because they were ageing much before their shelf lives.

IAF officers familiar with the missiles confirmed that this has been a problem area for long. "It is a known fact that the missiles do not work as we would like them to. Periodic tests that are carried out when they are in storage show their dismal state. We also have problems with spare parts," said a retired officer who was closely associated with the matter.

http://georgians.in/article_detail.asp?aid=606

 

[p2prada]

They were not dud per se. Meaning there was no issue with the design of the missile. The R-77s which were procured in 2000-2002 had issues with build quality which degraded the seeker life prematurely and affected performance. Only 8-10 years was achieved rather than the promised 15 years shelf life. While it was a loss to the exchequer, the problem can be rectified by replacing the seekers. Considering India has access to the seeker, Russia supplied seeker ToT to India for Astra a long time ago. I guess the Chinese bought the seeker ToT as well. So, the R-77 seekers can be made in India.

The R-27 is of an entirely different capability. Even if it is accepted that the R-77 failed here, the R-27 cannot replace the R-77.

Other active BVR missiles being procured are Derby(Tejas) from Israel and Mica RF(Mirage-2000) from France, both are 100Kg missiles in the 60Km class. But the MKI cannot be equipped with these lower capability missiles. We have our own Astra, but it will take time before the MKI version arrives, at least 3-5 years. The other choices are the RVV-SD and Meteor, both will come for sure and are 200+Kg class. Then there is the Aim-120C7(200+Kg). Aim-120D(250Kg?) is not yet available for export. So, only these missiles can replace the RVV-AE(R-77).

 

[pmaitra]

There was a issue with R-77 in IAF..

Some R-77 batches purchased from Russia proved to be dud, Since then IAF looking at other BVR ..




Nearly half of Russian air-to-air missiles with IAF have homing, ageing problems: Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) report By Amarjeet Malik From General Military School, Georgians News

Thanks Kunal.

That report came up in Indian Express. The original link is no longer available, but one can see the cached copy here: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/nearly-half-of-russian-airtoair-missiles-with-iaf-have-homing-ageing-problems-cag-report/490055/0]Nearly half of Russian air-to-air missiles with IAF have homing, ageing problems: CAG report - Indian Express[/url]

Nearly half of Russian air-to-air missiles with IAF have homing, ageing problems: CAG report

New Delhi, Thu Jul 16 2009, 03:03 hrs | Indian Express

Putting a big question mark on the performance of the Russian beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missiles with the Indian Air Force, an audit report by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has noted that nearly half the missiles tested either did not home in on targets during evaluations or failed ground tests because they were ageing much before their shelf lives.
The R 77 (RVV-AE) BVR missiles, fitted on board the Su-30 MKIs, MiG-29s and MiG-21 Bisons, were bought from Russia starting 1996. More than 2,000 missiles were ordered after the Kargil conflict and 1,000 have been delivered.

The CAG report, which will be released soon, is based on evaluations of the missile — its range is close to 90 km — during ground tests, inspections and test firing by the IAF. The missiles were bought at a "cost of Rs 2 crore each" but their failure during tests, says the CAG report, has affected the "operational preparedness" of the IAF.

"All figures in the report are based on air force records. Everything is verified by the IAF," an official said.

The problem with the missiles was referred to Russia and several teams subsequently visited India to rectify faults. IAF officers familiar with the missiles confirmed that this has been a problem area for long. "It is a known fact that the missiles do not work as we would like them to. Periodic tests that are carried out when they are in storage show their dismal state. We also have problems with spare parts," said a retired officer who was closely associated with the matter.

Former Air Chief Marshal S Krishnaswamy said: "When the missiles were bought, they were top of the line, world class systems that no other country had. As we did not have our own testing facilities, they had to be tested in Russia. The question to be asked is whether the government approved testing facilities for the missiles in India."

The IAF has for long enjoyed an edge over Pakistan due to its inventory of BVR air-to-air missiles. In an article on the Pakistani side of the Kargil war — it was published in The Indian Express — the then PAF Director (Operations) Kaiser Tufail admitted that the presence of the BVR missiles with the IAF kept away the Pakistani F-16s from disrupting aerial bombing being carried out by India near the Line of Control.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Ukraine is an MCTR the scope of any cooperation will always be limited. We
Are better of staying with the israelis in missile development who are not
A signatory

 

[pmaitra]

About the MTCR:

The Missile Technology Control Regime

Read more: Missile Technology Control Regime

[HR][/HR]

Current membership (they call themselves partners):

Argentina (1993)
Australia (1990)
Austria (1991)
Belgium (1990)
Bulgaria (2004)
Brazil (1995)
Canada (1987)
Czech Republic (1998)
Denmark (1990)
Finland (1991)
France (1987)
Germany (1987)
Greece (1992)
Hungary (1993)
Iceland (1993)
Ireland (1992)
Italy (1987)
Japan (1987)
Luxembourg (1990)
Netherlands(1990)
New Zealand (1991)
Norway (1990)
Poland (1998)
Portugal (1992)
Republic of Korea (2001)
Russian Federation (1995)
South Africa (1995)
Spain (1990)
Sweden (1991)
Switzerland (1992)
Turkey (1997)
Ukraine (1998)
United Kingdom (1987)
United States of America (1987)

Some of the major countries from whom we import are already in it. So, Israel is the best choice left. On the other hand, Israel is heavily influenced by the US at times.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

About the MTCR:



Some of the major countries from whom we import are already in it. So, Israel is the best choice left. On the other hand, Israel is heavily influenced by the US at times.

But Israelis have what could be called two violations for India already technically
With little obstruction by USA harpy and Nirbhay. Also provided SAR lense satellites
And Phalcon AWACS.

 

[pmaitra]

^^

Yes, at the moment, we have no other option but to continue collaborating with them. Whoever benefit India, go with them. Again, we come back to the same old cliché - we need to be self sufficient.