Ukraine On Brink Of Missile Deal With India

Discussion in 'Strategic Forces' started by p2prada, Apr 25, 2012.

  1. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    More in the link.
    Ukraine on Brink of Missile Deal with India - Media | Defense | RIA Novosti
     
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  3. john70

    john70 Regular Member

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    Ukraine is close to signing one of it's biggest ever defense deals for air-to-air missiles with India. Ukraine is close to signing one of it's biggest ever defense deals for air-to-air missiles with India.

    The deal for R-27 air-to-air missiles is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, is in the final stages and is waiting for approval from the Ukrainian leadership.

    The Vympel R-27 (AA-10 Alamo) missile is a medium-to-long-range air-to-air missile developed by the Soviet Union. It is similar to the U.S. AIM-7 Sparrow.

    The missile comes in infrared-homing (R-27T), semi-active-radar-homing (R-27R), and active-radar-homing (R-27AE) versions. It would be fitted on India's MiG-29, Su-27 and Su-30 MKI fighter jets.

    Both India and Ukraine are sensitive to Russian concerns over the missile deal and want to make sure that it would not irritate ties with Moscow.

    Tensions between Kiev and Moscow could arise later because if the deal is successful, India may want to buy other related weapons from Ukraine, thus allowing Ukraine to enter a multi-billion dollar market like India which is dominated by Russia.

    Some industry experts believe Moscow would not oppose the deal as the Ukrainian company is the only manufacturer of these missiles and a few components of the R-27 missile are supplied by a Russian firm.

    The R-27 is a missile designed by Vympel, a Russian missile design bureau, in the 1980's. Vympel is now part of Russia's Tactical Missiles Corporation, which now produces successor weapons to the state-of-the-art R-27 missile.

    Ukrainian R-27's displayed by the Artem and Arsenal companies at the Moscow air show in 2011 featured what the makers claimed were upgraded seekers. Arsenal said it had developed a new infra-red seeker for the R-27 extending it's detection range from 18 km to 30 km.

    New Delhi showed keen interest at the recent DEFEXPO-2012 arms show. New Delhi was interested in Ukrainian anti-tank missiles and new engines for Mi-family helicopters.
     
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  4. john70

    john70 Regular Member

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    Ukraine On Brink Of R-27 air-to-air Missile Deal With India

    Ukraine is close to signing one of it's biggest ever defense deals for air-to-air missiles with India. Ukraine is close to signing one of it's biggest ever defense deals for air-to-air missiles with India.

    The deal for R-27 air-to-air missiles is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, is in the final stages and is waiting for approval from the Ukrainian leadership.

    The Vympel R-27 (AA-10 Alamo) missile is a medium-to-long-range air-to-air missile developed by the Soviet Union. It is similar to the U.S. AIM-7 Sparrow.

    The missile comes in infrared-homing (R-27T), semi-active-radar-homing (R-27R), and active-radar-homing (R-27AE) versions. It would be fitted on India's MiG-29, Su-27 and Su-30 MKI fighter jets.

    Both India and Ukraine are sensitive to Russian concerns over the missile deal and want to make sure that it would not irritate ties with Moscow.

    Tensions between Kiev and Moscow could arise later because if the deal is successful, India may want to buy other related weapons from Ukraine, thus allowing Ukraine to enter a multi-billion dollar market like India which is dominated by Russia.

    Some industry experts believe Moscow would not oppose the deal as the Ukrainian company is the only manufacturer of these missiles and a few components of the R-27 missile are supplied by a Russian firm.

    The R-27 is a missile designed by Vympel, a Russian missile design bureau, in the 1980's. Vympel is now part of Russia's Tactical Missiles Corporation, which now produces successor weapons to the state-of-the-art R-27 missile.

    Ukrainian R-27's displayed by the Artem and Arsenal companies at the Moscow air show in 2011 featured what the makers claimed were upgraded seekers. Arsenal said it had developed a new infra-red seeker for the R-27 extending it's detection range from 18 km to 30 km.

    New Delhi showed keen interest at the recent DEFEXPO-2012 arms show. New Delhi was interested in Ukrainian anti-tank missiles and new engines for Mi-family helicopters.
     
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  5. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    We ban IMI and we are looking to a supplier who supply ammo and engines to our friends close by ?
     
  6. john70

    john70 Regular Member

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    Can it be synced with LCA ?
     
  7. john70

    john70 Regular Member

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    Two threads posted seperately by me.. please merge or delete.
     
  8. john70

    john70 Regular Member

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    Can it be synced with LCA ?
     
  9. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

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    How has Russia reacted to this?
     
  10. john70

    john70 Regular Member

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    No official reaction, but as .... the article says -

    "Some industry experts believe Moscow would not oppose the deal as the Ukrainian company is the only manufacturer of these missiles and a few components of the R-27 missile are supplied by a Russian firm."

    Only Ukrainian firm manufactures it.
     
  11. john70

    john70 Regular Member

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    Shouldnt we go for american missiles : Aim sparrow 7, Is it because of the cost ? How comparable they are ?
     
  12. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Why not AIM-120D or latest, R-77 was better option..

    I am waiting for Astra..
     
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  13. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Russian may not allow..
     
  14. john70

    john70 Regular Member

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    AIMs possibly out because these imports are for our Russian fleets. Why they have not choosen R_77 then ? possible difficulty to sync ?
     
  15. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

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    I thought R-27 was an obsolete missile.
     
  16. john70

    john70 Regular Member

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    [​IMG]
    The R-27 is a medium-range air-to-air missile, designated as AA-10 "Alamo" with NATO countries. This missile was designed for the Soviet Union's forth-generation fighters such as the MiG-29 and Su-27 featuring exceptional maneuverability replacing in service MiG-23 fighters armed with the R-23 missiles. Furthermore this missile is carried by improved versions of the MiG-21, MiG-23 and MiG-25. This missile was also designed as a counterweight for the United States F-15 fighters armed with the AIM-7F "Sparrow" missiles. Suggestions of the new missile conception were made in 1972 - 1973 and at the end of 1973 development of this missile begins. There were made two competeting projects by "Molniya" and "Vympel" design bureaus and early in the 1980s the "Vympel" design was selected for further development. Series production of the R-27 began in 1986.
    [​IMG]


    The R-27 missiles are intended to intercept and defeat aircraft and helicopters of all types, unmanned reconnaissance aircraft and cruise missiles under active enemy electronic jamming, counteractions and maneuvering. There are produced some variants of the AA-10 "Alamo" with two different seeker types - semi-active radarhoming and infrared, and two types of engines - with standard and extended range engine.


    The R-27 missiles have a modular design, thus missile can be easily converted from semi-active radarhoming to infrared just replacing the seeker module. Furthermore such design allowed to use the same missile both with the MiG-29 light frontline fighter and mounting extended range module - with the Su-27 long-range interceptor.

    "Alamo" missiles are capable to intercept an air target traveling at speed up to 3 500 km/h. Interception altitude varies from 20 meters to 27 kilometers. Maximum altitude difference between target and missile carrying aircraft is 10 kilometers. All R-27 missiles have a minimum range of fire in 0.5 - 1 km and carry 39 kg weight expanding rod warheads.

    Initially, as almost all soviet air-to-air missiles, the R-27 came in two variants, having either semi-active radarhoming or an infrared homing seeker. The semi-active radarhoming variant was designated as the R-27R (AA-10A "Alamo-A"), while the infrared variant was designated as R-27T (AA-10B "Alamo-B"). The standard soviet tactic for interceptions is based on firing two missiles with a various seeker types at the same target to maximize kill probability. There are also designed downgraded export versions of these missiles, designated as R-27R1 (AA-10A "Alamo-A") and R-27T1 (AA-10B "Alamo-B") respectively.

    A few years later "Vympel" developed extended range of the R-27 variants featuring a larger engine and longer range of fire. However internal changes done to the missiles were insignificant. Extended range version of the R-27R received designation as R-27RE (AA-10C "Alamo-C") and version of the R-27T - the R-27TE (AA-10D "Alamo-D") respectively. Their export versions are R-27RE1 and R-27TE1 with similar NATO designations.

    The R-27RE missile became a base developing a R-27AE and R-27EM missiles. The R-27AE (AA-10C "Alamo-C") is a medium-range missile, featuring an active radarhoming seeker. The R-27EM (AA-10C "Alamo-C") is optimized for a long-range low-level interception on water. Current status of this missile is unknown. Both missiles entered service in 1990.

    One more variant of the R-27 is an R-27P (AA-10D "Alamo-D") missile with a passive seeker. This is an anti-radar homing missile launched against aircraft using active radars, such as AWACS and jamming aircraft. Missile's long-range variant with an extended range engine is the R-27PE. Both missile operational status is unknown.
     
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  17. john70

    john70 Regular Member

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    Yeah the first one was manufactured in 1983, the last one of 1990....posting some specs, I dont know why it is being selected ?

    AA-10 Alamo / R-27 FAMILY MISSILES



    Type: Air -to- Air, medium range
    Year: 1983
    Range (km):0.5- 80/50
    Weight (kg): 253
    Lenght (m): 4.08
    Type of warhead: semiactive radarhoming
    Carried by: su-27, su-30, su-35,yak-141, mig-29
    [51]. Length: R-27R: 4080 mm (13.386 ft)
    Diameter: R-27R: 230mm(9.055 in)
    Missile Wt: R-27R: 254 kg (560 lbs)
    Miss Dist/Kill Radius: R-27R: 11.5 m (37.73 ft)
    Time of Flight: R-27R: 60 sec
    Seeker Gymbol Limits: R-27R: ±55°
    Antenna Look Angle: R-27R: ±50°
    Guidance: R-27R:
    Proportional Navigation
    Missile Envelope: R-27R: Max Range (1.4 Mach/40Kft/5sq-m Tgt)
    Head-On: 61 km (33.5 NM)
    Tail On: 21 km (11.5 NM)
    Min Range (1.4 Mach/40K ft/5sq-m Tgt)
    Head-On: 02 km (01.1 NM)
    Tail -On: 500-600 m (1640-1968 ft)

    R-27T
    Type: Air -to- Air, medium range
    Year: 1983
    Range (km): 0.5- 70/45
    Weight (kg): 245
    Lenght (m): 3.8
    Type of warhead: infrared (heat-seeking)
    Carried by: su-27, su-30, su-35,yak-141, mig-29

    R-27RE
    Type: Air -to- Air, medium range
    Year: 1985
    Range (km): 0.5- 130/60
    Weight (kg): 350
    Lenght (m): 4.78
    Type of warhead: semiactive radarhoming
    Carried by: su-27, su-30, su-35,yak-141, mig-29

    R-27TE
    Type: Air -to- Air, medium range
    Year: 1985
    Range (km): 0.5- 120/55
    Weight (kg): 348
    Lenght (m): 4.5
    Type of warhead: infrared (heat seeking)
    Carried by: su-27, su-30, su-35,yak-141, mig-29

    R-27AE
    Type: Air -to- Air, medium range
    Year: 1990
    Range (km): 0.5- 130/60
    Weight (kg): 350
    Lenght (m): 4.78
    Type of warhead: active radarhoming
    Carried by: su-27, su-35, yak-141, mig-29

    R-27R1
    R-27ER1
    Launch range, km:
    against fighter-type targets
    50 - 60
    60 - 62.5
    against some other targets
    up to 75
    up to 100 (90)
    Missile dimensions, m:
    length
    4.08
    4.775
    body diameter
    at control unit section
    0.23
    0.23
    at solid-fuel rocket section
    0.23
    0.26
    wing span
    0.7736
    0.8033
    control plane span
    0.972
    0.972
    Warhead type
    rod-type load-carrying
    rod-type load-carrying
    Warhead weight, kg
    39
    39
    Launch weight, kg
    253
    350
    Engine type
    one-mode solid rocket
    two-modesolid rocket
     
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  18. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Hardly. There is actually no missile in the world that compares to it. It has excellent range and speed while the enemy has lesser chance to counter it because it has three types of seekers depending on the version; active, semi-active and heat seeker.

    The R-27(again depending on the version, R-27P) can act as an ARM and can also engage ground targets like radars.

    The R-27 is capable of home on jam like the Aim-120C7 and C8.

    No equivalent exists. The US had started on an equivalent as an Aim-120 replacement sometime back, but Gates canceled it because of the costs.

    I am not sure if LCA will carry this missile because it will widen it's inventory unnecessarily. It already has the Derby and R-73 which is plenty for such an aircraft. However to answer the question posted, yes, LCA can carry R-27.
     
  19. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    The R-27 EP's homing head is so powerful that it can actually detect aircraft from a distance of 200Km. But that kind of detection is not useful if the rocket cannot fly that far. This is all stuff from early 2000s.

    The R-27P/EP is the fourth seeker for ARM capability.
     
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  20. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

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    p2p, in your opinion, would obtaining the complete knowhow for this missile will be beneficial for us? Is it a part of this deal?
     
  21. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    We don't have an equivalent development cycle AFAIK. Astra has two models and are an equivalent of the Mica RF and Aim-120C-7(or D) in terms of capabilities. There is a chance we may also use semi active and passive seeker heads on Astra. If that is the case then we will definitely be interested in the seeker heads of the R-27. The R-27Ps seeker head is interchangeable with the R-77s.

    The drawback of the R-27 is that it can engage only less maneuverable targets. 8G is the limit. But it is of little significance if you consider the R-27 is entirely passive and cannot be detected by the enemy aircraft. So, the enemy does not know what's coming and does basic maneuvers during the time. Active homing gives away both location and time of impact. That's when Natasha starts screaming in your ears.

    R-27Ps seeker does not allow greater maneuvers than 5.5G or will risk losing the target. Even though it can engage other aircraft, it is great against AWACS.
     
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