UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack fears

asianobserve

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

It appears that either you are delusional or in a trance.

Revisit that thread and read what I have written about the geopolitical and geostrategic situation and the CIA report why USSR reacted the way that it did.

If you don't believe in the CIA, and you don't believe any other source, you are then floundering aimlessly and instead can be taken to be a troll.

You don't read, but go on with your blinker fitted disjointed and irrational polemic that is bereft of reality or comprehension of the situation.

No amount of geoploitical or geostrategic consideration justifies the haphazard (impatient) way the Soviets handled KAL 007. As it was not posing a direct and immediate threat to the life of any Soviet citizen at the time, there was no reason for it to shoot it down without proper ID.

In contrast to the cavalier attitude of the Soviets, the RAF exercised caution in dealing with that Latvian cargo plane (as it should be).
 

Ray

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

I reproduce the CIA Report and the Summary just to assist those who fail to read before commenting in total disarrayed thoughts.

A Cold War Conundrum: The 1983 Soviet War Scare

By Benjamin B. Fischer



Summary

Introduction

Context: Soviet Cold War Setbacks

The Soviet Intelligence Alert and Operation RYAN

Why an Intelligence Alert?

Spooking the Soviets

PSYOP

RYAN, Phase II: A New Sense of Urgency

RYAN and East German Intelligence

The War Scare Goes Public

"Star Wars"

KAL 007

ABLE ARCHER 83

The "Iron Lady" and the "Great Communicator"

War Scare Frenzy in the USSR

The Enduring Trauma of BARBAROSSA

Conclusion: The War Scare Was for Real

Appendix A: RYAN and the Decline of the KGB

Appendix B: The Gordievsky File



Summary
Soviet intelligence services went on alert in 1981 to watch for US preparations for launching a surprise nuclear attack against the USSR and its allies. This alert was accompanied by a new Soviet intelligence collection program, known by the acronym RYAN, to monitor indications and provide early warning of US intentions. Two years later a major war scare erupted in the USSR. This study traces the origins and scope of Operation RYAN and its relationship to the war scare.

Some observers dismissed the alert and the war scare as Soviet disinformation and scare tactics, while others viewed them as reflecting genuine fears. The latter view seems to have been closer to the truth. The KGB in the early 1980s saw the international situation--in Soviet terminology, the "correlation of world forces"--as turning against the USSR and increasing its vulnerability. These developments, along with the new US administration's tough stance toward the USSR, prompted Soviet officials and much of the populace to voice concern over the prospect of a US nuclear attack.

New information suggests that Moscow also was reacting to US-led naval and air operations, including psychological warfare missions conducted close to the Soviet Union. These operations employed sophisticated concealment and deception measures to thwart Soviet early warning systems and to offset the Soviets' ability--greatly bolstered by US spy John Walker--to read US naval communications.

In addition, this study shows how:

The war scare affected Soviet responses to the Reagan administration's Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), the administration's condemnation of the Soviet Union following the 1983 shootdown of a South Korean airliner, and a NATO nuclear-release exercise late that same year.

British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher sought to use the Soviet alert/war scare to influence President Reagan's thinking about the USSR.

Moscow's threat perceptions and Operation RYAN were influenced by memories of Hitler's 1941 surprise attack on the USSR (Operation BARBAROSSA).

The Kremlin exploited the war scare for domestic political purposes, aggravating fears among the Soviet people.

The KGB abandoned caution and eschewed proper tradecraft in collecting indications-and-warning intelligence and relied heavily on East German foreign and military intelligence to meet RYAN requirements.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...nd-monographs/a-cold-war-conundrum/source.htm
No amount of geoploitical or geostrategic consideration justifies the haphazard (impatient) way the Soviets handled KAL 007. As it was not posing a direct and immediate threat to the life of any Soviet citizen at the time, there was no reason for it to shoot it down without proper ID.

In contrast to the cavalier attitude of the Soviets, the RAF exercised caution in dealing with that Latvian cargo plane (as it should be).
You are a marvel!

A nuclear war is not a threat to life and limb!

Go ask the survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

And visit what MAD means to the world.

Beware of false knowledge. It is more dangerous that ignorance.
 
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Razor

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

Relax, the "Russian" was appended to the "aircraft" only to identify its source. It's like a report on the crash of MH17, all media organizations identified it as a Boeing 777 (no need to identify it as American since everybody knows Boeing is an American company). That the media got it so wrong, it turned out that the aircraft was not russian made, is besides the point.
Nice try.
Then the plane should be identified as Antonov, not Russian.
Else let them use "Ukrainian made" because this plane is made by a Ukrainian company (Antonov)
Else use Soviet made, because this plane was made during Soviet times.

You find it difficult to admit, but we both know why the terms like "Russian made" and (in the video in Daily Mail) "Russian Jet" are used.
The reason is simple they are trying to antagonize the population using the media.
 

asianobserve

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

I reproduce the CIA Report and the Summary

Here, read this transcript of Soviet high command conversation and the order to shoot down KAL 007:

The Commander of the Soviet Far East District Air Defense Forces, General Valery Kamensky,[32] was adamant that KAL 007 was to be destroyed even over neutral waters but only after positive identification showed it not to be a passenger plane. His subordinate, General Anatoly Kornukov, commander of Sokol Air Base and later to become commander of the Russian Air Force, insisted that there was no need to make positive identification as "the intruder" had already flown over the Kamchatka Peninsula.

General Kornukov (to Military District Headquarters-Gen. Kamensky): (5:47) "...simply destroy [it] even if it is over neutral waters? Are the orders to destroy it over neutral waters? Oh, well."

Kamensky: We must find out, maybe it is some civilian craft or God knows who."

Kornukov: "What civilian? [It] has flown over Kamchatka! It [came] from the ocean without identification. I am giving the order to attack if it crosses the State border."
Korean Air Lines Flight 007 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Impatience and arrogance are oozing from their statements.
 
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asianobserve

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

You find it difficult to admit, but we both know why the terms like "Russian made" and (in the video in Daily Mail) "Russian Jet" are used.
The reason is simple they are trying to antagonize the population using the media.
What are they going to get from antagonizing Russia? Maybe they are "sensationilizing" the news for greater readership and ultimately "profit."
 

Razor

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

I'm not exactly sure why you guys have started discussing the KAL 007, Iran flight 655, carry over from other thread ?
 

asianobserve

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

I'm not exactly sure why you guys have started discussing the KAL 007, Iran flight 655, carry over from other thread ?
It's KAL 007. Our dear friend injected to this thread hoping to justify that appalling Soviet atrocity.
 

Razor

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

What are they going to get from antagonizing Russia? Maybe they are "sensationilizing" the news for greater readership and ultimately "profit."
Not antagonizing Russia.
Antagonizing their base populations, (for BBC that would be Brits).
Why ?
Because it would make the population (again base population) more acceptable of the anti-Rus stance of the Uk etc.
 

asianobserve

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

Not antagonizing Russia.
Antagonizing their base populations, (for BBC that would be Brits).
Why ?
Because it would make the population (again base population) more acceptable of the anti-Rus stance of the Uk etc.

These private media organizations only have profit as their ideology. In the process of cost cutting maybe they did not fill some researcher positions that could have verified the origin of teh LAtvian freighter.
 

Ray

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

Here, read this transcript of Soviet high command conversation and the order to shoot down KAL 007:



Korean Air Lines Flight 007 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Impatience and arrogance are oozing from the statement of conversation.
I have read it many a time.

Perfectly natural reaction.

Heads had rolled earlier for failing to intercept other intrusions.

Soviet military mindset is based on Befehlstaktik.

Covering his bacon.

Arrogance is there for all Nations who can impose their will.

Do read Rumsfeld's Wars: The Arrogance of Power
Dale R. Herspring

It is the US Military policy that 'Shoot first, Check Later'. There is logic to that from the US standpoint - their soldier's safety is more important, even if an innocent is killed in a skirmish.
 
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Razor

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

@asianobserve :

Please respond to this also:

Razor said:
Nice try.
Then the plane should be identified as Antonov, not Russian.
Else let them use "Ukrainian made" because this plane is made by a Ukrainian company (Antonov)
Else use Soviet made, because this plane was made during Soviet times.
 
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Razor

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

These private media organizations only have profit as their ideology. In the process of cost cutting maybe they did not fill some researcher positions that could have verified the origin of teh LAtvian freighter.
BBC is not private.
And frankly I'm not buying that story, because this is not a one-off incident.
Come on you have been following this stuff. You know this isn't a one time only mistake.
 

asianobserve

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

I have read it many a time.

Perfectly natural reaction.

Heads had rolled earlier for failing to intercept.

Covering his bacon.

Perfectly natural reaction, to you? Not to me.

Can't you understand from the transcript that Soviet General Kornukov brushed the need to verify the exact nature of the aircraft (civilian or military) simply because it crossed into Soviet airspace without communication. He wanted to destroy the aircraft because it was already leaving Soviet airspace. Never mind if it was not properly identified.
 

asianobserve

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

BBC is not private.
And frankly I'm not buying that story, because this is not a one-off incident.
Come on you have been following this stuff. You know this isn't a one time only mistake.
I think it's more of sensationalism more than political intentions.
 

Ray

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

These private media organizations only have profit as their ideology. In the process of cost cutting maybe they did not fill some researcher positions that could have verified the origin of teh LAtvian freighter.
Fear is the most powerful enemy of reason. Both fear and reason are essential to human survival, but the relationship between them is unbalanced. Reason may sometimes dissipate fear, but fear frequently shuts down reason.

As Edmund Burke wrote in England twenty years before the American Revolution, "No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear."

Leadership means inspiring us to manage through our fears. Demagoguery means exploiting our fears for political gain. There is a crucial difference.

Fear and anxiety have always been a part of life and always will be. Fear is ubiquitous and universal in every human society. It is a normal part of the human condition. And it has always been an enemy of reason. The Roman philosopher and rhetoric teacher Lactantius wrote, "Where fear is present, wisdom cannot be."


There is more knowledge than mere gut feelings and emotional biases.
 
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apple

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

Is it too difficult to understand what I'm asking ?
Here it is again: Why does the Western media without any credible evidence bring up the Russia bogeyman.
Point to me, if you can, one post in this thread where I said the RAF did something wrong.

And this hysteria you say is only on RT ?
RAF pilot told Latvian plane 'you will be shot down' after veering over London | Daily Mail Online
In the above article, they say 7 times Russian-made when in fact this plane was made by a company in present day Ukraine.
The video in above article clearly and incorrectly says Flight path of "Russian Jet" which is plain BS.

BBC News - RAF jets intercept Latvian cargo plane over Kent
The above BBC article also uses the incorrect term Russian made jet, trying to send subtle messages as though it is a Russian plane.
These are not mistakes, these are obviously deliberate.
------
Also I'm actually genuinely curious as to put some figures, on the number of cargo planes/passenger planes hijacked after 9/11. @asianobserve if you have the numbers please provide it.
Pretty sure there has been no hijacking after 9/11.

I don't care what the Daily Mail publishes. Its readers, apparently, like stories demonising Russia. That's their business model. While personally I hope everyone who works for the Daily Mail catches Ebola/ AIDS, they can publish whatever they want. Good luck to them.

As to the BBC, I'm getting into any debates with someone in a tinfoil hat.
 
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Ray

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

Perfectly natural reaction, to you? Not to me.

Can't you understand from the transcript that Soviet General Kornukov brushed the need to verify the exact nature of the aircraft (civilian or military) simply because it crossed into Soviet airspace without communication. He wanted to destroy the aircraft because it was already leaving Soviet airspace. Never mind if it was not properly identified.
Indeed!

It is because your knowledge and comprehension of the world and its machinations are very minuscule, if not nil.

You do not understand geoploitics, geostrategy, psychology, mindsets or phobias that haunt the nationalities because of their history, grooming and indoctrination.
 

Razor

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

Pretty sure there has been no hijacking after 9/11.
Okay.

As to the BBC, I'm getting into any debates with someone in a tinfoil hat.
Sure, attack the messenger when you can't handle the message.

You quoted me first and you say you don't want to debate.
It works out well though, I wouldn't want to have a debate with someone lacking a brain.
 
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Ray

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pmaitra

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Re: UK jets threaten to 'shoot down' Latvian cargo plane over attack f

Another hoax coming out of western media.

I was going to post this, but I see @Razor has already done it.
 
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