U.S. May Allow India to Join JSF Effort

[JayATL]

check this link . http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-uaes-f-16-block-60-desert-falcon-fleet-04538/

there is a significance improvement is electronics and avionics and in modern warfare . They are most critical. Also we will have much more advanced weapons available compared to block 52 that Pakistan has. But IMHO discussing F16 here is irrelevent in this thread .Their AESA is generation ahead of others and currently they are into 3rd generation while others are into first .

I was referring to F 18 E/F being offered.

 

[sandeepdg]

and history tells us that you can't touch American air superiority.

Well, then you have a very poor understanding of history, pal !! Except 5th generation fighters, all throughout aviation history, British, German and Soviet fighter jets have been of the same high standards as American fighters of that generation. I suggest you brush on your history basics before you start bloating.

Just for the record, no one on this forum believes that the F-35 is gonna be any challenge at all to the PAK-FA. PAK-FA will be a direct contender to the F-22. Instead of F-35, we should rather concentrate our resources on the AMCA.

 

[sandeepdg]

So hypothetically if Pakistan is offered this aircraft , since India was given 1st choice and it rejects it-- you guys would have no issues?

you know since all 5th generation purchases seems to be ' putting all your eggs' in the Russian made aircraft ( and their stellar record) basket".

NATO seems to be picking up F-35 and as that project gets closer they (the US) will resolve any hiccups. so you won't have a choice of other 5G aircraft's for a very long time. Unless of course you aware of any of other leaders in the industry ( EU) that have their own 5G aircraft plans in motion?

tell me what is the contingency plan if the Russian made 5th gen is not up to par in further trails? what if it turns out to be a MIG 35 amongst all its competitors in its class?

Side note: plz correct me if I am wrong , did India not a few years back request this in some informal fashion and at that time the US did not give the green signal? and was it an unofficial but yet hope to have F35 for the navy? or was either of them internet chatter.. ( i honestly don't know)

You must be out of your damn mind, dude ! You think the Americans are gonna donate F-35s to the Pakistanis, surely they don't have the money to buy it. That would be the height of foolishness !

By the way, what are the competitors are you talking about vis-a-vis the PAK-FA ? The only that exists is the F-22.

 

[JayATL]

my limited understating of relevant history... tomcat onwards US air force has always held an edge over any others of same class ( in that era).

Nobody said - give it for free to Pakistan. they will pay for arms and rather go hungry as a nation. see NK mentality

you are not allowed to say the word " DUDE" in these forums, I was told

what on believes in this forums is not always relevant. you can't benchmark two aircraft's where both are not yet settled offers.

If I had to bet my last dollar < i would put at F 35 being the most technologically advanced and superior aircraft at the time of its induction and for perhaps a decade or more to come. But that purely speculative too and simply going on American ingenuity .

 

[p2prada]

my limited understating of relevant history... tomcat onwards US air force has always held an edge over any others of same class ( in that era).

Not exactly. After the break up of the Soviet Union the Americans got hold of German Mig-29 fighters and more recently Ukranian Flankers.

The consecutive tests revealed the Soviet R-77 and R-73 were superior missiles in kinematic performance, aerodynamics and seeker technology. The Mig-29s also turned out to have superior IR detection and targeting systems.

The Mig-29s scored a 3:1 kill ratio against F-16s in Germany in the 90s and swept F-18s with a mop in 2002. WVR of course. The fighters were near export models of the Soviet Union and hence they performed less in large scale maneuvers because of an inferior radar.

The R-73 sent the Americans back to the drawing board and they came up with its equivalent and inducted it only in 2003 called the Aim-9X.

Even today the USAF considers the Flankers to be superior to the F-15. This has less to do with propaganda behind F-22 inductions and more to do with facts.

Currently the only aircraft that could be called better than the best is the F-22 and there are only 187 of them.

If I had to bet my last dollar < i would put at F 35 being the most technologically advanced and superior aircraft at the time of its induction and for perhaps a decade or more to come. But that purely speculative too and simply going on American ingenuity .

The F-35 will be superior to most aircraft in technology than any other aircraft for the next decade. The F-22 has inferior tech compared to F-35. All equivalent platforms are possible only after 2020 anyway. So, there is nothing to speculate about.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ifth-generation-jets-/articleshow/7376149.cms

US may allow India to acquire its fifth generation jets

WASHINGTON: The US is open to Indian participation in its Joint Strike Fighter programme that would finally lead to its purchase of fifth generation F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter, a top Pentagon official said Thursday.

"There is nothing on our side, no principle which bars that on our side, Indian participation in the Joint Strike Fighter. Right now, they're focused on these aircraft which are top-of-the-line fourth-gen fighters," under secretary of defence for acquisition, technology and logistics Ashton Carter said.

Headed to India in the coming weeks, Carter said the decision to pursue the F-35 is to be taken by India only.

Carter was delivering a key-note address on "US-India Defense Relations" at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, on the occasion of the release of a report on India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program.

At a cost of about USD 10 billion for 126 aircraft, the MMRCA competition is the largest Indian fighter tender in years.

Eight countries and six companies eagerly await the outcome of the selection process, which has garnered high-profile attention for its sheer size, its international political implications, and its impact on the viability of key aircraft manufacturers.

Carter argued that US-built F-16 and F/A-18 as being the most technologically advanced aircraft in the competition.

"I think that, without saying anything disparaging about the other entrants, both F/A-18 and the F-16 offers include the best technology," he said.

Authored by Ashley Tellis, the report says that in choosing an aircraft, the government of India must employ a speedy decision process that is focused on the right metrics, taking both technical and political considerations into account.

Tellis in his over 140 page report notes that the European aircraft are technically superb, but the US entrants prove to be formidable "best buys".

If Washington wants an American aircraft to win the game, however, it will need to offer generous terms on the transfer of technology, assure India access to fifth-generation US combat aircraft, and provide strong support for India's strategic ambitions--to counter the perception that the older US designs in the MMRCA race are less combat effective, the report notes.

 

[Yusuf]

Again the F-35 is being offered to sweeten the MRCA deal, I wonder if there is actually something cooking. Perhaps a hedge if the FGFA doesn't come out as per indian wishes or if russia plays any game.

 

[JayATL]

please delete double post.................

 

[JayATL]

Again the F-35 is being offered to sweeten the MRCA deal, I wonder if there is actually something cooking. Perhaps a hedge if the FGFA doesn't come out as per indian wishes or I'd russia plays any game.

thank you Yusuf. that's what I've been saying... why put all your eggs in one basket. What if the Russian venture turns out to be the Mig 35 of the 5th gen class of 20XX ? Plus if F 18 E/ F wins , then all the more F 35 allows India to consolidate from what 5 different platforms to a more manageable one? the MiG-21 BISON ( holds on- till tejas replaces this), the MiG-21FL, the MiG-29, the Mirage 2000H, and the Su-30MKI FLANKER—in addition to the prospective MMRCA. while US operates only three types of fighter aircraft—the F-22A Raptor, F-15C/D/E Eagle, and the F-16C/D Fighting Falcon

 

[Yusuf]

thank you Yusuf. that's what I've been saying... why put all your eggs in one basket. what if Russian venture turns out to be the Mig 35 of the 5th gen class of 20XX ?

India certainly is not putting all eggs in one basket, the baskets have increased over the last decade. India wants to partner projects than just buy off the shelf. That will give india experience in making high tech stuff. India was not happy with russia when russia invited india mid way through pakfa. India wanted to be there from the drawing board. That is why there was a lot of delay in an indo-russian 5th gen program.
F-35 is going to remain just a hedge or bargaining chip for india. India stands to learn a lot more from the russians which will help Indias own 5th gen fighter project the AMCA.

 

[Oracle]

It's amazing how far we have come in 2 decades. US running after us, desperately lobbying to buy it's products. Too much will give us diabetes. No F-16, F-18, F-35. Thank You.

 

[JayATL]

India certainly is not putting all eggs in one basket, the baskets have increased over the last decade. India wants to partner projects than just buy off the shelf. That will give india experience in making high tech stuff. India was not happy with russia when russia invited india mid way through pakfa. India wanted to be there from the drawing board. That is why there was a lot of delay in an indo-russian 5th gen program.
F-35 is going to remain just a hedge or bargaining chip for india. India stands to learn a lot more from the russians which will help Indias own 5th gen fighter project the AMCA.

So I been reading the article posted a few posts .. and its says ( this in answer to the AMCA- I wonder what is its time line ) . Based on current acquisition rates, the PLAAF will probably hover around 1,700 aircraft in 2020, but it will have a higher proportion of advanced systems than it has today. It would not be unreasonable to expect the service at that point to field close to 500 Su-27/30s and 500 F-10s, as well as a small number of fifth-generation stealth fighters at the high end. This component would be supplemented by some 300-odd F-7 and F-8 remnants, along with another 100 or so modern but lightweight fighters such as the FC-1/JF-17 at the low end. Completing the force would be another 250-300 platforms for the ground attack and long-range strike mission.

Such a force structure implies that the PLAAF will possess more fourthgeneration high-performance combatants a decade from now than the total number of aircraft in the IAF's entire inventory. This unprecedented force ratio would not only be in sharp contrast to that of the past but also, and more perilously, threaten to unhinge the foundations of Indian defense strategy insofar as it relied on the possession of quantitative superiority where advanced combat aircraft were concerned.

I guess this the reason, a certain retired air force chief, called for a quicker selection of the MMRCA process and to put an end to the delay.

 

[Oracle]

US stealth fighter for India? They are ready to sell

The United States is open to Indian participation in its Joint Strike Fighter programme that would finally lead to its purchase of fifth generation F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter, a top Pentagon official has said.

"There is nothing on our side, no principle which bars that on our side, Indian participation in the Joint Strike Fighter. Right now, they're focused on these aircraft which are top-of-the-line fourth-generation fighters," Under Secretary of Defence for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics Ashton Carter said.

Headed to India in the coming weeks, Carter said the decision to pursue the F-35 is to be taken by India only.

Carter was delivering a key-note address on "US-India Defence Relations" at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, on the occasion of the release of a report on India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme.

At a cost of about $10 billion for 126 aircraft, the MMRCA competition is the largest Indian fighter tender in years.

Eight countries and six companies eagerly await the outcome of the selection process, which has garnered high-profile attention for its sheer size, its international political implications, and its impact on the viability of key aircraft manufacturers.

Carter argued that US-built F-16 and F/A-18 as being the most technologically advanced aircraft in the competition.

"I think that, without saying anything disparaging about the other entrants, both F/A-18 and the F-16 offers include the best technology," he said.

Authored by Ashley Tellis, the report says that in choosing an aircraft, the government of India must employ a speedy decision process that is focused on the right metrics, taking both technical and political considerations into account.

Tellis, in his over 140-page report, notes that the European aircraft are technically superb, but the US entrants prove to be formidable "best buys".

If Washington wants an American aircraft to win the game, however, it will need to offer generous terms on the transfer of technology, assure India access to fifth-generation US combat aircraft, and provide strong support for India's strategic ambitions -- to counter the perception that the older US designs in the MMRCA race are less combat effective, the report notes.

"Given the technical and political considerations, New Delhi should conclude the MMRCA competition expeditiously, avoid splitting the purchase between competitors, and buy the best aircraft to help India to effectively prepare for possible conflict in Southern Asia," the report said.


"Because of the dramatic transformations in combat aviation technology currently underway, the Indian government should select the least expensive, mature, combat-proven fourth-generation fighter for the IAF as a bridge toward procuring more advanced stealth aircraft in the future," the report added.

"In making its decision, India's government must keep the IAF's interests consistently front and centre to ensure that its ultimate choice of aircraft is the best one for the service. This will not only help India to strengthen its combat capabilities in the coming years but position it as a rising global power worthy of respect far into the future," the report said.

Source

 

[Yusuf]

China has always had the quantitative superiority over India. It has more to bother about than India. The ratio will always remain. Max india is going up to is 42 squads based on its projected needs.May be it will push to 60 in phased manner over the next quarter of a century.

 

[RebateKing]

history tells us that you can't touch American air superiority.

This says it all.
BTW, India has yet spent a great deal on PAK FA or AMCA, so it's not going to be lots of $ going wasted. They may not turn out to be cheaper than F35 anyway.

 

[Yusuf]

This says it all.
BTW, India has yet spent a great deal on PAK FA or AMCA, so it's not going to be lots of $ going wasted. They may not turn out to be cheaper than F35 anyway.

What do you estimate the fly away cost of the F-35 to be? Israel backed out for pricing factors.

 

[RebateKing]

yes, there are some concerns on the cost overrun; but Israel didn't back out.

I have no clue on its flyaway cost. One thing I know for sure is that the total commitment to the program dwarfs that of PAK FA, which is only a few hundred. So, don't get too optimistic on the flyaway cost of PAK FA.

 

[nrj]

Its obvious & the best time for US to aggressively market F35 for India. China is testing J20 & won't keep its promise of solving border disputes. IAF in desperate need of filling its depleted fighter strength. IN looking for more promising fighter for upcoming carriers. Some even minor delay in testing schedule PAKFA & people will run around for F35 as the best savior for the time.

All I got to say is, decisions in hurry can become an otiose undertaking & quite expensive.

 

[niharjhatn]

Its obvious & the best time for US to aggressively market F35 for India. China is testing J20 & won't keep its promise of solving border disputes. IAF in desperate need of filling its depleted fighter strength. IN looking for more promising fighter for upcoming carriers. Some even minor delay in testing schedule PAKFA & people will run around for F35 as the best savior for the time.

All I got to say is, decisions in hurry can become an otiose undertaking & quite expensive.

Sorry, but just a quick q - I am a bit confused between PAK FA and the FGFA - are they the same or different planes?

And has either one entered a prototype phase yet, or are they still much more on the drawing board (yet to take off, so to speak XD).

 

[joe81]

There is nothing wrong in having two 5th generation warplanes in IAF. I say this because the Chineese have J20. It make take them some time to develop a complete war ready J20 but they can produce in them in great numbers.

Also dont forget that once China has J20 it may be just a matter of time before Pakistan too has it. Considering all these factors it may not be a bad idea to have F35 and PAKFA together in IAF. It will show we are serious about the 2 front war doctrine.