U.S. aid was used on defence against India, says Musharraf

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That is not point,we are buying and they are being gifted, either way they are supplying to both sides with possibly more deals and gifts in the near term. They are using the China threat to sell to us and they are using war on terror premise to give aid/gift to pakistan, benefit for USA profit from sales to India (and possibly use India against China)and goals reached in Afghanistan by using pakistan; A win-win situation for USA.
 

tarunraju

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That is not point,we are buying and they are being gifted, either way they are supplying to both sides with possibly more deals and gifts in the near term.
Right, and their gifting them becomes inconsequential when our procurements are becoming increasingly China-specific and not Pakistan-specific. So they're not really arming two "belligerents" here, and hence no arms-race is taking place in the real context.
 

tarunraju

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Right, and by that logic, we're not locked in an arms-race with Pakistan. We are buying equipment specific to China, but those procurements have been long overdue all this while, even before we woke up to fresh aggression from China.
 
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we have an arms race because china is also gifting to pakistan, we are not just china specific, because we buy arms which can be used on both sides,china dosen't want war with us but they are more than willing to use their proxy pakistan to go to war with us, but even China has minimal influence in Pakistan compared to USA. Either way we are buying and they are being supplied by others for their own agendas;so i would still call it an arms race.
 

tarunraju

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It's obvious that no weapon is going to be used against specific threats only (in this way Musharraf is justified in telling that once the equipment is in the hands of the military, it can use it against whichever threat it wants to), but we are currently not expanding our arsenal to face Pakistan. They can keep getting free weapons and yet fall short of its requirements to face India by a long shot. Our new equipment on the other hand is essentially to China-specific (eg: you don't need INS Arihanth to fight Pakistan). It so happens that US is one of them selling weapons, but they do not top the list of countries we buy our equipment from, not by a long shot. So their vested interests in arming Pakistan for free are limited.

On the other hand, while it may seem that all of a sudden we are buying a lot of equipment, we are merely making up for our deficits (buying things that have been overdue for decades even), not really "expanding". So India, although needs a lot more weapons, isn't frantically buying them.

The bottom-line is that we needn't attach too much importance to these developments beyond acknowledging them and moving on. Naturally, the media is going to use a lot of hyperbole to cheese up its content, that shouldn't alarm us.
 

qsaark

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When it comes to the arm race, Pakistani Military is fighting an uphill battle. There is not even a slightest chance that Pakistan would ever be able to compete with India on one to one basis. As far as America is concerned, in past 20 or so years, there has not been a single major deal between the two countries. Heck, Musharraf literally transformed Pakistan into a whore but couldn’t get anything significant from America. What did we get from them? Name me one major piece of hardware that we got from them that would help Pakistan Army or Air Force or Navy to fight against the Indians? Yes, lots of things on the papers, but they are useless unless they are transferred and even if they are transferred still insignificant. They offered Pakistan E-2 C, you are getting E-2 D; They offered Pakistan P-3 C, your are getting P-8; They offered Pakistan F-16 Block 52, you are getting Block 70. Where is the race?
 
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qsaark if pakistan gets all the good stuff too quickly, what motivation will pakistan have to perform? Also it might ruin the sale to India, USA sold the nuclear deal to india for the purpose of india becoming a market accessible to them, there was nothing special in that deal and it may not even see the light of day from the US side, but you can see how badly USA wants to make the sell, i also see it in many media controlled articles.
 

qsaark

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qsaark if pakistan gets all the good stuff too quickly, what motivation will pakistan have to perform? Also it might ruin the sale to India, USA sold the nuclear deal to india for the purpose of india becoming a market accessible to them, there was nothing special in that deal and it may not even see the light of day from the US side, but you can see how badly USA wants to make the sell, i also see it in many media controlled articles.
Pakistan is getting nothing, you watch. This is a usual Carrot and stick game US is playing with Pakistan. My question is valid, US is in Afghanistan for past 8 years, and in the name of war on terror, what significant hardware US has given to Pakistan? Few old refurbished AH-1Ss...what else? Instead of giving them the much needed CH-47, they gave them beaten up MI-17s and how many? only four! Anything else that I missed?

Fact of the matter is, Pakistani authorities have no choice. They have to do the job even if US gives them nothing. Now whether this ‘bully’ is sustainable or not is debatable. Even a large portion of the aid that US gives to Pakistan actually goes back into the pockets of the Americans in the name of training, boarding and lodging and honoraria of the US officials etc.
 

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Also it might ruin the sale to India, USA sold the nuclear deal to india for the purpose of india becoming a market accessible to them, there was nothing special in that deal and it may not even see the light of day from the US side, but you can see how badly USA wants to make the sell, i also see it in many media controlled articles.
The Indo-US nuclear deal is significant since it came useful in isolating Iran from any major pipeline deal with Pakistan. We were also pressured to take a pipeline deal through Kazakhstan-Afghanistan-Pakistan yet we were committed to IPI. The proof is in the pudding India pulled away from IPI deal, the IPI was conditionality. Now if it wasn’t than why don’t they dive into it and I don’t believe in this nonsense of security, measures were taken.
 
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qsaark you have a very valid point and i agree what is pakistan really gaining from this as far as the common man is concerned, USA can leave Afghanistan and Pakistan a mess if they choose too like they have in the past and it would not make the slightest difference to them, you can add India to that list too. The people at the top will make out ok and retire to their london flats. This may seem ok with the military establishment but they are accepting the terms laid out by USA and maybe to far into this to really change course. Though Pakistan may feel they are gaining from hardware or aid it is not something which is sustainable and the instability that these wars bring(yes wars USA has directly involved Pakistan in 2 wars) stops a lot of progress and growth and investment which may have otherwise occured and the amount of that loss is unknown.
 

qsaark

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Now if it wasn’t than why don’t they dive into it and I don’t believe in this nonsense of security, measures were taken.
Please allow me to disagree with you. In my opinion, security was and still is a significant concern. The Pipeline is not going to be sub-surfaced and we have seen the blasting of the Sui-Gas pipeline every now and than. To be honest with you, if I were in the shoes of India, I would have asked Pakistan to control the situation in Balochistan first, and than talk about the trans-Balochistan pipeline. If it was a straight pipeline, it is going to be 400 miles long. More than 200 miles of the pipeline will be passing through Balochistan and there is simply no way that Pakistani authorities could give a guaranty that pipeline would remain secure.
 
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The Indo-US nuclear deal is significant since it came useful in isolating Iran from any major pipeline deal with Pakistan. We were also pressured to take a pipeline deal through Kazakhstan-Afghanistan-Pakistan yet we were committed to IPI. The proof is in the pudding India pulled away from IPI deal, the IPI was conditionality. Now if it wasn’t than why don’t they dive into it and I don’t believe in this nonsense of security, measures were taken.
USA achieved all their goals with the nuclear deal:

1)They marketed the deal as something India is getting for being the good boy, and Pakistan not getting because of the whole AQ Khan scandal

2)They prevented the Iran -Pakistan-India pipeline:
a)which keeps Iran isolated
b)prevents Indian economy from growing too quickly
c)prevents access to an energy source for India/pakistan
d)brings stability to the subcontinent

3)They got India to vote against Iran in the UN (Which shocked many Indians too)

4)It gave knowledge of Indian Nuclear program in detail

5)it opened up the Indian defense market to USA

6) For a short time it impacted Indian-Iranian relations

7)It prevented possible arms deals that were in the works with Iran one good example of this is the possible brahmos sale to Iran.

8)it was a chance to bring India into the NPT,CTBT,FMCT camp

9)now that the goals are achieved the deal is being changed by Obama to the point that it may be finished. But it did give India a NSG waiver which in my opinion was even more important than the US nuclear deal.

10) it prevents strengthening of the SCO, keep India and Pakistan as unofficial members.


The pipeline was a good proposal but the timing may not have been right with USA in the region it was highly unlikely and pressure was on both India and Pakistan to drop the proposal to keep iran isolated.
 

qsaark

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Well, it is remained to be seen whether US will achieve all or even few of the goals you mentioned in detail. US made the move but did it consider the fact that the deal was not between the US and the Pakistan, a slave nation; it was between the US and the India, a democratic country where decisions are made by the Parliament.

India has MONEY, hence has choices to make. Would India like to walk the path that eventually took Pakistan to a financial graveyard? I really doubt that.
 

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Please allow me to disagree with you. In my opinion, security was and still is a significant concern. The Pipeline is not going to be sub-surfaced and we have seen the blasting of the Sui-Gas pipeline every now and than. To be honest with you, if I were in the shoes of India, I would have asked Pakistan to control the situation in Balochistan first, and than talk about the trans-Balochistan pipeline. If it was a straight pipeline, it is going to be 400 miles long. More than 200 miles of the pipeline will be passing through Balochistan and there is simply no way that Pakistani authorities could give a guaranty that pipeline would remain secure.

There were many talks on this issue and we had resolved the security concerns and it was misconception that this pipeline will be blown up. There are counter measures after all this pipeline was a source of revenue to Bolochistan, sui is a political dispute which has yet to be solved. The IPI was given secure transit to India and I should add that security was not the issue; the issue was India backing from the deal and buying time for the nuclear deal that was on offer.
 
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Well, it is remained to be seen whether US will achieve all or even few of the goals you mentioned in detail. US made the move but did it consider the fact that the deal was not between the US and the Pakistan, a slave nation; it was between the US and the India, a democratic country where decisions are made by the Parliament.

India has MONEY, hence has choices to make. Would India like to walk the path that eventually took Pakistan to a financial graveyard? I really doubt that.
Pakistan was brought to the graveyard by the leadership, which esentially sold out the nation, and very cheaply in my opinion, but it is not too late pakistan is not in the grave,any positive changes made today will take time to produce results in the future, but as you have mentioned it may not be pleasant, i do not agree that it will have to be violent but it has to come from the leadership that has a genuine interest in making a positive change for the future and the patience to see it thru, much of the Indian economic growth is a result of reforms and changes the government made in the 1990's which are starting to bear fruit now.
 
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There were many talks on this issue and we had resolved the security concerns and it was misconception that this pipeline will be blown up. There are counter measures after all this pipeline was a source of revenue to Bolochistan, sui is a political dispute which has yet to be solved. The IPI was given secure transit to India and I should add that security was not the issue; the issue was India backing from the deal and buying time for the nuclear deal that was on offer.
The Indian nuclear deal does not satisfy the Indian demand for crude, the nuclear deal will meet the electricity demand but the growing demand for crude still remains.
 

ppgj

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There were many talks on this issue and we had resolved the security concerns and it was misconception that this pipeline will be blown up. There are counter measures after all this pipeline was a source of revenue to Bolochistan, sui is a political dispute which has yet to be solved. The IPI was given secure transit to India and I should add that security was not the issue; the issue was India backing from the deal and buying time for the nuclear deal that was on offer.
india, pakistan relations have almost always lived on the edge. it is almost like a bubble ready to burst anytime. history is testimony to that. now from an indian perspective how anybody in the GOI can buy the assurances that you say addresses the concerns? many such assurances on issues related to even india's internal security have not been acted upon and the problems continue unabated. the fact of the matter is, simply-trust does not exist. now that can only be brought back if there is sincerety. besides india has good reasons to beleive that it can be held hostage in crucial times. IPI from the beginning was a non starter and i still do not understand how india, with so many doubts, got into it!!
 

tarunraju

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qsaark if pakistan gets all the good stuff too quickly, what motivation will pakistan have to perform? Also it might ruin the sale to India.
Once again, Pakistan's military buildup isn't our carrot, Chinaese aggression is. In the process of building up our arsenal against China, we automatically grow our arsenal against Pakistan. A bullet doesn't know whose flesh its tearing through.
 
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Once again, Pakistan's military buildup isn't our carrot, Chinaese aggression is. In the process of building up our arsenal against China, we automatically grow our arsenal against Pakistan. A bullet doesn't know whose flesh its tearing through.
you are right Tarun, our focus should mainly be China but with USA and China both arming Pakistan;Pakistan can't be ignored. We are more likely to have a conflict with Pakistan than China, who will also want the same and will supply Pakistan to this end like they are doing now.
 

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