TYPE 214 SUB VS AMUR 1650 SUB A Layman's analysis

[Drsomnath999]

Russia Ranks Second in Submarine Exporters Rating

Russia is the world's second largest exporter of new submarines in the period of 2008-2015, reports World Arms Trade Analytic Center (WATAC).

According to WATAC, in the coming 4-year period (2012-2015) 15 new submarines will be exported worldwide to the amount of $6.25 bln in case all delivery schedules, declared intentions, and active tenders are fulfilled.

In the past 4-year period (2008-2011 ãã.), 11 new subs were either exported or built under license to the sum of about $4 bln.

Generally, 12 submarines were exported in that period for $4.1 bln. Sales volume of new subs was 91.66% out of overall number or 98.29% out of worldwide delivery costs.

Deliveries of new subs in 2012-2015 will grow by 36.36% in quantitative terms and by 55% in value terms.

In 2008-2011, worldwide average demand for new submarines was 3 pcs per year. In the next period, annual demand will rise up to almost 4 subs per year.

Below goes rating of world submarine exporters (countries are ranked depending on the number of already delivered or planned for delivery subs).

The given rating includes deliveries up to 2015 inclusively. Carry-over deliveries on available backlog of orders for 2016 and forth were not considered.

As of 2008-2015, the top position in the new submarine exporters rating is traditionally held by Germany (17 submarines for $6.4 bln) having steadily growing backlog. In the first 4-year period Germany exported 6 non-nuclear subs ($2.209 bln), stock of orders for 2012-2015 contains 11 new diesel submarines ($4.192 bln).

As noted above, Russia holds the second position (5 subs for $2.12 bln). In 2008-2011, Russia exported 2 conventional subs ($600 mln), estimated volume of deliveries in 2012-2015 will make 3 new submarines (including 10-year leasing of 1 nuclear sub) to the amount of $1.52 bln.

France closes the trio of world leaders (4 submarines for $1.766 bln). In the first 4-year period France exported 3 diesel submarines ($1.224 bln), delivery of 1 non-nuclear sub for $541.7 bln is expected in 2012-2015.

According to WATAC technique, category "new" includes newly-built subs, license programs, and deliveries of decommissioned submarines (modernized and having prolonged lifetime) which price at the time of delivery exceeds 50% of the same-type new submarine but not less than $100 mln.

Read full report on worldwide export of submarines on the World Arms Trade magazine (No. 5, May 2012).
Russia Ranks Second in Submarine Exporters Rating

 

[Drsomnath999]

Russia completes India's submarine modernisation programme

Makes a pitch for its Amur-1650 subs under the Indian Navy's P-75 (I) project

The INS Sindhurakshak submarine came off the slips at the Zvezdochka shipyard in Severodvinsk on Saturday, marking the completion of a mid-life refit programme for the Indian Navy's Kilo-class diesel-electric submarines in Russia.

During a two-year in-depth modernisation the torpedo-firing INS Sindhurakshak, built in 1997, has been equipped with the tube-launched Club-S cruise missiles effective against surface vessels and submarines at a range of about 200 km. It has also been provided with some Indian-made systems, including a hydro-acoustic "USHUS" complex, a CCS-MK radio-communication system and Porpoise Electronic Support Measures. After going through sea trials and firing tests the submarine will be handed over to the Indian Navy later this year.

The INS Sindhurakshak is the seventh and the last of the 10 Kilo-class submarines that India bought from Russia between 1986 and 2000 to have undergone mid-term repairs and modernisation in Russia. Of the remaining three submarines one was repaired in India and the two others are currently under repair in India.

Even as Russia prepares to deliver the last retrofitted submarine to India, Russia's top shipbuilding official has come up with the idea of a second mid-life repair of the Indian Navy's Kilo-class submarines.

"A second repair will add another 5 to 7 or even 10 years to the submarines' scheduled 20-year service life," said Andrei Dyachkov, Director General of Sevmash shipyard, who is expected to take over as the head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, which controls 70 per cent of Russia's s shipbuilding assets, next month. "This will help the Indian Navy maintain its submarine strength in view of delays in the induction of French-built Scorpene subs and in floating a tender for six more diesel-electric submarines," he said.

The Indian Navy issued Request For Information (RFIs) under the P-75 (I) project way back in 2008. However, it is yet to open a global tender for the submarines. Russia is expected to take part in the tender with its new Amur-1650 submarines, along with France's Scorpio, Germany's Type-214 and Spain's S-80 submarines.

Mr. Dyachkov, who also heads the Rubin Naval Design Bureau, which designed the Amur-1650, thinks the Russian submarine stands a good chance of winning the Indian tender.

"We hope for success and are confident of fulfilling all terms of the tender in the required timeframe," he told The Hindu.

The Amur-1650 makes far less noise than the Kilo-class submarines, which the NATO nicknamed "Black Holes" for their stealth qualities.

The shipbuilder denied media reports that said Russia was trying to have the demand for the submarines to have onboard Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system removed from the tender requirements.

"We have designed and built an advanced and safe AIP that generates hydrogen onboard and enables the submarine to stay underwater for much longer time," Mr. Dyachkov said.
The Hindu : News / International : Russia completes India's submarine modernisation programme

 

[kaustav2001]

Some interesting developments/ a bigger version of the Type 214 perhaps -

Israel's Deployment of Nuclear Missiles on Subs from Germany

Full Story @ Israel Deploys Nuclear Weapons on German-Built Submarines - SPIEGEL ONLINE

 

[Koovie]

I dont think that Germany will sell nuclear capable subs to us. They are very strict with that. Selling this stuff to Israel is somehing different because of German history (Hitler and co), they still feel pretty bad about what happend during WW2

 

[kaustav2001]

I dont think that Germany will sell nuclear capable subs to us. They are very strict with that. Selling this stuff to Israel is somehing different because of German history (Hitler and co), they still feel pretty bad about what happend during WW2

Yes that's true, they still feel guilty about what they did to the Jews during WW II. But a bigger version of the Type 214/216 could indeed have been an interesting option for the Project 75(I) subs, but now in all likelihood that contract will go to DCNS for commonality & to avoid any further delays.

 

[Drsomnath999]

FROM JANES DEFENCE WEEKLY 8TH AUGUST 2012

 

[pmaitra]

While it is good to know that Russia is offering more Amurs, I think we need to collaborate with the Russians, with ToT, and make hydro-dynamically shaped Akula-like cruisers; if not that big, at least big enough to have missiles without having to make a hunchback like the Alexander Nevsky.

 

[WMD]

p-75i will probably go to S-80 class,
but i'm partial to type-216 subs, if Aus Navy orders them as collins replacement we should go for them.
amur is too small for IN taste and i read an article where it was written that russian AIP is not as good as european ones.
if HDW offers the non-magnetic steel hull design of 212 in 216 we should order that, it will increase our operational capability many fold. though i suspect delays would be large.
i'm not worried abt cost because more than 9 billion USD for 6 subs, that's abt 1.5 billion USD for 1 sub. we could build a nuk sub with that much money.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Indian Navy set to issue tender for new submarines
The Indian Navy is set to "very soon"issue a RfP (Request for Proposal or tender) for a new line of six submarines with AIP (Air Independent Propulsion) capability.

The requirement has been pending for quite a few years but the proposal for the new line, designated Project 75-I, has now being given firm clearance by the government, according to Indian Navy chief, Admiral DK Joshi.

Asked how soon is "very soon," the naval chief told India Strategic defence magazine (..:: India Strategic ::.. Home Page: The authoritative monthly on Defence and Strategic Affairs.) that the Defence Acquisition Committee (DAC) had already cleared a note on Acceptance of Necessity (AON), the navy had finalized the RfP and it was in its last stage of formalities for clearance in the defence ministry.

As per procedures, depending on the money involved, AON has to be cleared by a competent authority. If the requirement involves more than Rs.1,000 crores ($200 million ), then it is by the DAC, headed by the defence minister. The approval was accorded just before the Navy Day on December 4, 2012.

AIP increases the mission life of a submarine by around three times, depending upon the task and parameters required. The capability enables a submarine to generate air onboard without the need to surface for breathing to recharge its batteries.

At present, none of the Indian submarines have this capability, and some of them can only be under water for only three to five days. The existing fleet of 14 diesel-electric submarines is rather weak despite the periodic upgrades, although some newer EW (Electronic Warfare) systems have been installed.

Submarines are about staying underwater as long as possible, and that is why nuclear power is used to keep them submerged for around three months, or to the limits of human endurance.

The new Project 75-I submarines should be huge in value, estimated at around $10 billion-plus, depending upon the offsets and transfer of technology (ToT).

At present, six new Scorpenes under Project 75 are being built for more than $5 billion (Rs 23,562 crore) by the state-run Mazagon Dock Ltd. (MDL) under licence from the French DCNS company.

MDL is also hoping to get the new Project 75-I line but it has substantial work in hand for years – 14 ships in addition to the six Scorpenes. The experience gained in building the Scorpenes though should be extremely useful and must not get wasted.

AIP is also being considered for the last two of the existing line of Scorpenes by installing plugs – about eight meters in length and the same diameter as that of the submarine. Admiral Joshi said that the (Defence Research and Development Organisation) DRDO was working on building these plugs, but that if this entailed delay, "we will not wait".

The Scorpene project is already late by three years, with the first submarine scheduled to be out in June 2015 – instead of 2012 – and the last in September 2018.

DCNS has offered to build the plugs and some negotiations have taken place with it. Nonetheless, DRDO's Naval Materials Research Laboratory (NMRL) at Ambernath in Maharashtra is working on the project to bring in some indigenous capability and content.

About the Project 75-I, defence ministry sources said that its Department of Defence Production was working on fine-tuning some features like Who-Will-Do-What among the Indian shipyards and the suppliers in terms of sub-systems and weapons. Details on offsets and ToT, which have a sizeable bearing on the costs, are also being given the last touches.

Notably, the defence offsets policy mandates a minimum investment of 30 percent to be put back in a related defence industrial venture in India, but in the biggest defence contract that is now being negotiated for the French Rafale Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA), this figure is 50 percent.

As per indications, the RfP for the submarines should be out even in January 2013, or latest by March before the financial year 2012-13 ends.

The Indian Navy's current fleet of conventional diesel-electric submarines is quite old.

There are four HDW Shishumar class submarines acquired from Germany and 10 Kilo Sindhughosh class from Russia, both from 1986 onwards. The service life of a submarine is estimated at around 20 years, but because of political indecision after the allegations over the purchase of Bofors guns from Sweden, the modernization process of the Navy – along with that of the Army and Indian Air Force – suffered.

In 1998, the then naval chief, Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat, projected a requirement of a 24-submarine fleet in the navy's long-term vision for 30 years. In 1999, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) – the apex body headed by the prime minister – approved the plan for their indigenous construction in two lines.

The Scorpenes are being built in India to gain experience and indigenous support capability. India had gained some earlier with the induction of HDW boats but as there was no follow-on programme, that experience was lost and all those involved in the project have retired.

The only direct submarine acquisition of the Indian Navy after the HDW and Kilo submarines is that of the single nuclear power attack submarine (SSN) INS Chakra from Russia in 2012. There are also some technical issues with it, and during his recent to New Delhi, Russian President Vladimir Putin promised to have them sorted out ASAP.

An SSN is a nuclear propelled but not nuclear armed submarine. The conventionally-powered diesel electric submarines are knows as the SSK class.

Indian Navy set to issue tender for new submarines | idrw.org

 

[natarajan]

why cant we fast track like dircect purchase (c-130,p8i,c17)

 

[Drsomnath999]

why cant we fast track like dircect purchase (c-130,p8i,c17)

it's not possible becoz it's a very complex deal like MMRCA

 

[Armand2REP]

p-75i will probably go to S-80 class,
but i'm partial to type-216 subs, if Aus Navy orders them as collins replacement we should go for them.
amur is too small for IN taste and i read an article where it was written that russian AIP is not as good as european ones.
if HDW offers the non-magnetic steel hull design of 212 in 216 we should order that, it will increase our operational capability many fold. though i suspect delays would be large.
i'm not worried abt cost because more than 9 billion USD for 6 subs, that's abt 1.5 billion USD for 1 sub. we could build a nuk sub with that much money.

Keep dreaming, France has already been tapped and bought Pipivav.

 

[Tolaha]

Keep dreaming, France has already been tapped and bought Pipivav.

Bought Pipavav? DCNS just bought a 15% stake in Pipavav Defence! While I do hope Pipavav Defence gets significant orders from MOD, India's track-record with private shipyards doesn't inspire much confidence.

 

[WMD]

no way in hell MOD will give the order to build P-75I subs to a private shipyard.
just because pipavav is making OPVs doesn't mean it can absorb the sophisticated sub building tech.
besides i never said the contract will go to type-216 i said it'll go to the S-80 class in all probability
if IN wanted to induct more Scorpène subs why the RFP, marlin is a peoposed class no subs hav been built so IN won't go for that either
and its just speculations, we'll hav to wait to see what the IN decides.

 

[JineshJK]

No one heard about all these...
"The Type 214 procurement programs of international customers have had a history of technical problems. The first Type 214 submarine sold to Korea, Son Won-il, was reported to suffer noise problems allegedly due to faults in HDW's Type 214 design. South Korean and Greek Type 214 submarines had a host of other nearly identical problems, including instability while surfaced, periscope vibrations and seawater leaking in the hydraulics. While these problems in the South Korean Type 214s have been reportedly resolved, the noise level has yet to be reduced as promised by HDW. The company was fined $4.1 million by DAPA in February 2008 for ongoing technical problems. In November, a South Korean National Assembly demanded price reductions for the remaining six submarines, arguing that HDW was using the South Korean market to correct faults in the Type 214 to increase the submarine's overall international export potential. It is uncertain if DAPA received a price reduction for the fourth unit when it was contracted to DSME" -Wikipedia

Greek Katsonis class (Type 214) Submarine Problems? - Defense Technology & Military Forum
More noise problems..
Germans may find it hard to sell their subs - The Hindu
Stealth performance..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IDW0U_2X9w
7:26 shown as, US Commanders admission about Russian Subs low noise level(Not all of them).

Correction- "Amur1650 Speed- 20kt and Type 214 Depth-250m,(400m is theoretical or estimated) so not confirmed"
So for Type214, clear loss in AIP and Stealth I think we should consider Amur1650 than Type214. or avoid Type 214...

 

[average american]

MOSCOW, December 26 (RIA Novosti) – India has asked Russia to replace the faulty parts on the leased Nerpa nuclear-powered submarine as they affect its operational readiness, the Times of India reported.

The Navy sources cited by the newspaper on Tuesday did not specify the components that needed the replacement but said they "were critical for the operations of the submarine."

Neither Russian nor Indian defense ministries have officially commented on the report.

The Russian-built Akula II class nuclear attack submarine was inducted into the Indian Navy as INS Chakra in April.

The lease contract, worth over $900 million, was drawn up after an agreement between Moscow and New Delhi in January 2004, in which India agreed to fund part of the Nerpa's construction.

However, shortly after the start of sea trials in November 2008, an accident on board the submarine killed 20 sailors and technical due to a toxic gas leak when the automatic fire extinguishing system malfunctioned.

The Nerpa was finally handed over to India in January after prolonged and costly repairs.

The submarine has a maximum speed of 30 knots and a maximum operating depth of 600 m, while its endurance is 100 days with a crew of 73.

The vessel is armed with four 533-mm and four 650-mm torpedo tubes, although it cannot carry nuclear weapons under the lease provisions.

With the lease of the Nerpa, India became the sixth operator of nuclear submarines in the world, after the United States, Russia, France, Britain and China.

India's domestically-designed INS Arihant nuclear submarine is expected to be ready for operational deployment in 2013 after final sea trials.
India Claims Problems With Russian-Leased Nuclear Sub | Defense | RIA Novosti

Russia newspapers make the problems sound a little less then they reallly are.
India Claims Problems With Russian-Leased Nuclear Sub | Defense | RIA Novosti

Submarines: Russia Relying On Refurbs

Submarines: The Curse Continues

Russia’s Submarine Woes | Flashpoints

But dont worry when they sink we are teaching India submarine rescue techniques.

India, US to Exercise Submarine Rescue Operations

 

[Armand2REP]

Amur's top speed today is under 10 knots.

 

[arnabmit]

@Drsomnath999 why Amur 1650 and not Amur 950? Amur 950 is smaller, more cost effective, yet more heavily armed.

[pdf]http://www.ckb-rubin.ru/fileadmin/editor/listovki/Amur_950_rus.pdf[/pdf]

 

[Drsomnath999]

@Drsomnath999 why Amur 1650 and not Amur 950? Amur 950 is smaller, more cost effective, yet more heavily armed.

See
Amur1650 sub has option for VLS system for brahmos meanwhile Amur 950 has torpedo launched tube releasing AsCM option ,I think IN wants a VLS system launched capabilty

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Amur's top speed today is under 10 knots.

Surface or submerged & what is cite for that spec?