Type 052D China's New Guided Missile Destroyer

[huaxia rox]

Btw, Shivalik is P-17, not the new P-17A.
Concept model released by the Navy,

have to say thats a good 1.....can u also share the IN links which show this kind of developments with me....

 

[huaxia rox]

The PLAN buildups lacks behind those of US and Japan.

we r only behind US navy in the region.....the US provided japanese with basically all they need excluding nukes and salors.......such as weapons.... info etc etc....so in my opinion the japanese navy is a part of USN.....

 

[ice berg]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/05/w...itary-spending-more-than-11-percent.html?_r=0

The increase, reported to be 11.2 percent, is in step with the increased pace of military spending by China over the past decade, but the official statement did not give details of what weapons systems China is developing or offer a description of military strategy beyond protection of the country's sovereignty. China analysts said the true figure was probably significantly higher and was underreported because much of the military's decision-making is kept opaque.

The increase is correlated with the GDP figures. Nothing special there. China still spends more money on internal security than military budsjet.


And China's energy route will remain vulnerable no matter what its capabilities are...

More reason for her to build up the navy then.




Maybe you should go back to the drawing board to redo your strategic calculations. With the too early aggressiveness of China in the region its smaller neighbors are already drawing up alternative plans to rebalance their trade dependence or at least mitigate them. Besides, trade is always a 2-way street, just as China's neighbors needs Chinese trades, China also need these trades with its neighbors, and yes, even those smaller ones.

And, you should always remember that before the flowering of China's manufacturing sector, its neighbors were not too dependent on it.

What does your perceived chinese aggression got to do with chinese energy security needs?

They are gonna work towards a blue water navy, no matter you like it or not.

They can trade with who ever you want. China dont force them to do business with her.

BTW it is not that easy to replace China. It is the biggeste market for lots of asian nations.

In other words, with the big market China is less dependent on their neighbors. After all you can always buy PH bananas somewhere else.

Not that easy the other way around right?

What does manufacturing sector got to do with her neighbors? It is the access to her market. How is that relevant today anyway,.

 

[asianobserve]

In other words, with the big market China is less dependent on their neighbors. After all you can always buy PH bananas somewhere else.

Not that easy the other way around right?

But Philippines and Vietnam and other smaller Asian countries can also produce what you're producing right? Especially since your labor is getting progressively more expensive right? In fact they are already taking away some of your foreign businesses/investments right?

 

[asianobserve]

The fact that with practically all of the major powers in Asia and most of the smaller countries are getting more wary of aggressive China, there's no Chinese military build-up that cannot be topped by the combined resources of all these countries against China.

The Emperor's New Clothes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ice berg]

But Philippines and Vietnam and other smaller Asian countries can also produce what you're producing right? Especially since your labor is getting progressively more expensive right? In fact they are already taking away some of your foreign businesses/investments right?

And I say good for them. It is competition. If they can do it cheaper and better than the chinese, I will buy their stuff.

To replace China though, that is not gonna happend. In case you havnt noticed, China is moving towards more tech intensive areas.

Again what is the problem?

 

[ice berg]

The fact that with practically all of the major powers in Asia and most of the smaller countries are getting more wary of aggressive China, there's no Chinese military build-up that cannot be topped by the combined resources of all these countries against China.

The Emperor's New Clothes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sure, another wetdream about united Asia against China.

I hate trolls...

 

[asianobserve]

Sure, another wetdream about united Asia against China.

I hate trolls...

Still living in your Asia-for-China-only dream? In case you only hear PLA propaganda you better start reading carefully the sentiments of your neighbors. Nobody is happy with your territorial aggressiveness in the region. The countries in the neighborhood may not have enduring love for each other but definitely the shared worry about China's muscle flexing is uniting them in a way that no other excuse can do. China is indeed the Imperial Japan of today complete with its own version of the East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere... and just like Imperial Japan you're also hated.

You hate trolls eh? I hate professional trolls more...

 

[shiphone]

the so called P15B is obviously some variant of 'Horizon class frigate'....it was discussed here

1. oto 127 mm
2. EMPAR Phased Array Radar
------------------
actually it's the model of FREMM frigate...

http://digilander.libero.it/en_mezzi_militari/html/en_fremm.html

 

[GromHellscream]

The life is once you can't resist it, enjoy it instead.

Mod: Everyone stick it to the topic. Emperor stories and Life's philosophic secrets are not the agenda here.

 

[s002wjh]

Still living in your Asia-for-China-only dream? In case you only hear PLA propaganda you better start reading carefully the sentiments of your neighbors. Nobody is happy with your territorial aggressiveness in the region. The countries in the neighborhood may not have enduring love for each other but definitely the shared worry about China's muscle flexing is uniting them in a way that no other excuse can do. China is indeed the Imperial Japan of today complete with its own version of the East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere... and just like Imperial Japan you're also hated.

You hate trolls eh? I hate professional trolls more...

could you name these asia country that are ally against china lol. so far countries has issue with china is phillippine, vietnam, japan on dispute. yet non of them are allies, vietnam/ph has its own dispute. its very far from combine asia.

 

[p2prada]

actually it's the model of FREMM frigate...

Ah! You are right.

I wonder why was that mistaken for P-15B. It is not even close to the P-15A.

 

[p2prada]

have to say thats a good 1.....can u also share the IN links which show this kind of developments with me....

Old news concerning P-17A. The plan was to purchase something like the GCS or FREMM, very early plans. Then it changed to indigenous design but 2 to be built in a foreign shipyard due to modular construction. Now it will be built entirely in India.

Navy seals 45,000-cr deal: seven warships - Indian Express

Navy seals 45,000-cr deal: seven warships

India has cleared its largest ever indigenous defence contract worth Rs 45,000 crore to manufacture seven advanced stealth frigates for the Navy at shipyards in Kolkata and Mumbai.

The P17A warship project, which will be India's most advanced and stealthy frigates, has been cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) on Friday.

Sources said that brushing aside a request by the Navy that two of the indigenously designed frigates may be manufactured abroad, the DAC has decided that all seven warships will be manufactured in India by the Mazagon Dock Limited, Mumbai (MDL) and the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE), Kolkata.

The Defence Ministry has allocated a budget of Rs 45,000 crore for the project and the work will be divided between the two shipyards. The P17A frigates will be even more advanced than the P17 Shivalik class warships that are currently being inducted by the Navy.

This will also be the first time that the two shipyards will construct warships in the modern way of modular manufacturing. The frigates will be put together using 300-ton blocks that will be fitted together, similar to the construction style being used to manufacture the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) in Kochi.

This very concept of modular manufacturing had caused a divide between the Navy and the two shipyards with the former insisting that two ships be manufactured abroad so that Indian ship workers could absorb the required technology.

In 2006, the Navy had even issued a Request for Information (RFI) ¿ a prerequisite to a tender ¿ to international ship manufacturers including French DCNS, Italian Fincantieri, American firms Lockheed Martin and Northrop Gruman besides shipyards in Russia and Korea to manufacture the frigates.

However, the two Indian shipyards had stood firm on their stand that all the frigates could be manufactured indigenously and there was no need to outsource even one of the warships. One argument put forward was that it would not be wise to manufacture the ship abroad as it incorporated advanced indigenously developed stealth features.

With the Defence Ministry taking the final call on the matter, the frigates will be manufactured in India and are expected to be inducted by 2021. The project is expected to start by 2011 when both GRSE and MDL complete an upgrade that will allow them to undertake modular construction. The first ship is expected to be delivered 3-4 years after work starts.

Another article with some extra information and it is more recent.
India finalizing mega stealth frigates' project for over Rs 50,000 crore - Times Of India

These ships may have AEGIS like capability. So, we may see the AEGIS itself, or an Indian version of the PAD on it with mid course interception. It should be around P-17 Shivalik's size and weight, not lower.

 

[p2prada]

WRT the HHQ9's seeker, its targeting combines midcourse inertial / datalink and terminal active radar homing guidance, other sources state that it employs a dual mode semi-active radar homing and scanning infrared seeker, claimed by Janes to be an imaging IR seeker, as in the naval S300FM found on the two Type 051C destroyers and the Peter the Great Kirov Class cruiser. I'd say the latter because if the S300FM were superior to the HQ9, the PLAN would've opted for it instead of creating a naval variant of the HQ9, the HHQ9. But we don't really know so I wont speculate.

There are doubts regarding the seekers. SARH or IIR or a combination of both or ARH. ARH is the best though. If HHQ-9 has it then good for PLAN, else they need to get it. RIM-174 has ARH.

The HHQ9 is sufficiently maneuverable to engage low flying cruise missiles, utilizing additional cruciform strakes when compared to the 5V55/48N6 family from which it is derived, to improve endgame turning performance and improve post-burnout glide range.

It won't be as good as a missile half it's size when it comes to cruise and end game maneuvering.

Barak 8 is smaller than Aster 30 and also lighter. We know the size, but not the weight. It is logical to believe a smaller and a lighter missile will maneuver better. Check specs for RIM-162 on wiki, Barak 8 should be a bit bigger, but specs should be similar.

From what I know, unlike other missiles, Barak 8 can also change targets to an entirely different target in a different area quickly during flight while feeding off a two way datalink from a different ship. Pretty convenient. This is why I pointed out China does not have an equivalent here.

both significantly faster than the Barak 8 (mach 2 vs mach 4.2).

Not entirely true. What you see on internet is Barak 1's speed. Barak 8 has a dual pulse motor and is significantly faster. We don't know the speed or the weight.

EDIT:

FD-2000 / HQ-9 SAM Characteristics

Operational Range (Aircraft Target) 7 - 125 km
Operational Altitude (Aircraft Target) 25 m - 27 km
Operational Range (Cruise Missile Target) 7 - 15 km
Operational Altitude (Cruise Missile Target) >25 m
Operational Range (Ballistic Missile Target) 7 - 25 km
Operational Altitude (Ballistic Missile Target) 2 - 15 km
Operational Range (Supersonic Missile Target) 7 - 50 km
Operational Altitude (Supersonic Missile Target) 1 - 18 km

Yeah! This is why Barak 8 would be better. Look at the minimum range distance. It is 7 Km for cruise missiles and supersonic AShMs. For Barak 8 it is supposed to be 500m to 1Km like Barak 1. Hence more maneuverable as compared to HHQ-9's 7Km.

 

[p2prada]

For points defence PLAN got HQ-16 and FL-3000.

FL-3000N is like Barak 1. No issues there. It would be nice if you get a 360degree capability like Barak 1 through using VLS. Tier 1.

HHQ-16 was derived from the Shtil-1. It is an older generation missile now. I don't think Type 052C is carrying it though. Maybe I am wrong, but only if you can provide more info about it. This is something that can go into 052D's VLS, could be quad packed too. But it has half the range of the Barak 8. In case you build something better, this would form the second tier of your missile defence. Tier 2.

HHQ-9 serves as a long range SAM with limited BMD. Altitude of 30-40Km, range between 150 to 250Km. Tier 3.

What you may be looking here is the beginning of a proper BMD system if you get similar size missiles as HHQ-9 to achieve altitudes between 100 and 300Km and a range of 400-500Km traveling between Mach 8 and Mach 12 like the SM-3 on AEGIS. Tier 4.

So, for carrier fleet defence Tier 1 and Tier 2 are plenty with Tier 4 being area defence against BMs. Don't know if Tier 3 is necessary, maybe it is good to have.

In case of IN, we have an excellent Tier 1 and Tier 2 capability with Barak 1 and Barak 2. Hopefully Tier 3 and 4 will come online with P-15B and P-17A, AAD and PDV. But we have enough to maintain a CBG now against the threats we face.

In case of PLAN, Tier 1 seems to be ready. A VLS will make it better, but not necessary. Tier 2 does not seem to be ready because we know 052C does not have HHQ-16 or equivalent(maybe). Tier 3 is ready. Tier 4, same like IN. Still waiting.

In case of USN. Tier 1 is the RIM-116 equivalent to FL-3000N. Tier 2 is the RIM-162 ESSM with a range of 1.5 to 50Km. Tier 3 with RIM-174 with a range of 250Km. Tier 4 is the AEGIS BMD with the SM-3, altitude of 150-250Km and range of 500Km.

Tier 4 is not needed on every ship, but Tiers 1 through 3 may be important for overall fleet defence.

Let's not forget both ROKN and JMSDF have all 4 Tier defence systems.

 

[asianobserve]

could you name these asia country that are ally against china lol. so far countries has issue with china is phillippine, vietnam, japan on dispute. yet non of them are allies, vietnam/ph has its own dispute. its very far from combine asia.

Did I say they're allies? Read my post again troll.

 

[ice berg]

FL-3000N is like Barak 1. No issues there. It would be nice if you get a 360degree capability like Barak 1 through using VLS. Tier 1.

HHQ-16 was derived from the Shtil-1. It is an older generation missile now. I don't think Type 052C is carrying it though. Maybe I am wrong, but only if you can provide more info about it. This is something that can go into 052D's VLS, could be quad packed too. But it has half the range of the Barak 8. In case you build something better, this would form the second tier of your missile defence. Tier 2.

HHQ-9 serves as a long range SAM with limited BMD. Altitude of 30-40Km, range between 150 to 250Km. Tier 3.

What you may be looking here is the beginning of a proper BMD system if you get similar size missiles as HHQ-9 to achieve altitudes between 100 and 300Km and a range of 400-500Km traveling between Mach 8 and Mach 12 like the SM-3 on AEGIS. Tier 4.

So, for carrier fleet defence Tier 1 and Tier 2 are plenty with Tier 4 being area defence against BMs. Don't know if Tier 3 is necessary, maybe it is good to have.

In case of IN, we have an excellent Tier 1 and Tier 2 capability with Barak 1 and Barak 2. Hopefully Tier 3 and 4 will come online with P-15B and P-17A, AAD and PDV. But we have enough to maintain a CBG now against the threats we face.

In case of PLAN, Tier 1 seems to be ready. A VLS will make it better, but not necessary. Tier 2 does not seem to be ready because we know 052C does not have HHQ-16 or equivalent(maybe). Tier 3 is ready. Tier 4, same like IN. Still waiting.

In case of USN. Tier 1 is the RIM-116 equivalent to FL-3000N. Tier 2 is the RIM-162 ESSM with a range of 1.5 to 50Km. Tier 3 with RIM-174 with a range of 250Km. Tier 4 is the AEGIS BMD with the SM-3, altitude of 150-250Km and range of 500Km.

Tier 4 is not needed on every ship, but Tiers 1 through 3 may be important for overall fleet defence.

Let's not forget both ROKN and JMSDF have all 4 Tier defence systems.

PLAN use HHQ-9 for tier 3. HHQ-16 carried by 054A for tier 2. It is an improved version of Shitil. Or at least HHQ-16a is. The original version was meant to intercept very low-flying targets at a distance of up to about 40 kilometers, filling the gap between CIWS/FL-3000 and HHQ-9, They compliment each other. 052 c and 052 D are not meant to operate alone.

It wont be any tier 4 defence until new generation DDGs come along. Not enough power for the sensors. How soon they arrive depends on the development in propulsion projects. We know they use indigenous propulsions on the new DDGs.

 

[p2prada]

Ships like the 052C and D are expected to operate anywhere as these are going to give you blue water capability. You will need all 3 Tiers on a single ship, especially looking at your threats. Meaning there is no point if you have parity with IN if you don't have it with JMSDF or ROKN. Those 2 countries are your real enemies, India is not.

The 054A is a small ship, it won't be enough to provide fleet defence. You need a 3 Tier defence on a larger destroyer with a longer mast so it can see more.

IN's actual plans for expansion will happen only after 2020. We are only going to add the 7 P-17A class Frigates as extras, this decade, apart from Arihant, Nerpa and carrier Vikrant. Right now we are only building new ships to replace older ships including the P-15A and B destroyers.

Either way, this is only to point out where our Navies are lacking in capability. We also don't have Anti-submarine missiles on our ships, only small rockets with depth charges apart from common torpedo tubes. One reason why IN uses an extra helicopter on larger ships.

 

[ice berg]

Ships like the 052C and D are expected to operate anywhere as these are going to give you blue water capability. You will need all 3 Tiers on a single ship, especially looking at your threats. Meaning there is no point if you have parity with IN if you don't have it with JMSDF or ROKN. Those 2 countries are your real enemies, India is not.

The 054A is a small ship, it won't be enough to provide fleet defence. You need a 3 Tier defence on a larger destroyer with a longer mast so it can see more.

IN's actual plans for expansion will happen only after 2020. We are only going to add the 7 P-17A class Frigates as extras, this decade, apart from Arihant, Nerpa and carrier Vikrant. Right now we are only building new ships to replace older ships including the P-15A and B destroyers.

Either way, this is only to point out where our Navies are lacking in capability. We also don't have Anti-submarine missiles on our ships, only small rockets with depth charges apart from common torpedo tubes. One reason why IN uses an extra helicopter on larger ships.

I disagreee. You dont need to pack all the different missiles in one single ship. You can if you are US who can afford it.

052c and Ds are meant as carrier escorts. That is why they are primary AD oriented. Of course they can operate alone. But that is not their primary role.
I fail to see why you have to pack everything in one single ship. The keyword here is fleet defence.

I see no problem with 054A operates closely with 052D. They are not meant to operate alone. Like I said before, they are meant to stay together to provide Tier 1, 2, 3 defences.

You are wrong on ROKN too. China has much closer tie with ROKN than Japan for two reasons. To keep north koreans in North Korea and Japan. It is a common mistake to assume that ROKN and China are enemies because of North Korea. In reality North Korea binds those two countries together.

I agree that India is not Chinas enemy.

 

[asianobserve]

I agree that India is not Chinas enemy.

You're country's actions in the border areas do not share your lip service. BTW, the same with India...