Type 052D China’s New Guided Missile Destroyer

Discussion in 'China' started by ice berg, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. ice berg

    ice berg Senior Member Senior Member

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    The Master ‘PLAN’: China’s New Guided Missile Destroyer | The Diplomat



    We are loyal followers of baseball philosopher Yogi Berra, who reportedly proclaimed that “it’s tough to make predictions, especially about the future.” Like the great Yogi, we seldom venture prophecies. But we did hazard one in The Diplomat late in 2010, namely that the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) would defy those Western experts who opined that Beijing had slowed or halted its naval buildup.

    For evidence, such experts claimed that the PLAN had stopped building guided-missile destroyers, or DDGs. If so, Beijing had made a conscious choice to limit its navy’s offensive punch. Not so, said we. Having experimented with various DDG designs, the PLAN was simply settling on a model that incorporated the best of each test platform. And indeed, DDG serial production has recommenced in earnest, judging from pictures of the new Type 052D Luyang II-class DDG that have surfaced on the Internet.

    Until recently it was fashionable for Western PLA-watchers to contend that Chinese shipyards had slowed or stopped construction of major surface warships like DDGs in favor of smaller, shorter-range, seemingly more defensive-minded vessels like guided-missile frigates and fast-attack boats. They cited the dearth of clear-cut proof of DDG-building since 2005 as evidence of this supposed trend. From this they inferred that Chinese naval development had taken a less menacing turn.

    This was counterintuitive at best. And indeed, a series of photos on Chinese and Western military websites over the past few years dispels such sanguine prognoses. The images indicate that Chinese shipyards had already resumed DDG construction by 2010, when we essayed our prediction about Chinese shipbuilding.

    The latest reports suggest that Jiangnan Shipyard in Shanghai launched its sixth Type 052C DDG and is laying down an average of two hulls per year. The new combatant under construction within a nearby hangar appears to be the Type 052D, the 052C’s successor. Indeed, a well-known China-watcher confirms that one of the new vessels was launched last week. By no means does this mean the ship is ready for sea. An enormous amount of work doubtless remains to be done on it alongside the pier, per shipyards' usual practice. Still, putting the first of its kind in the water represents an important milestone toward sending a new ship class to sea

    The PLAN may have found its premier surface combatant.

    According to the Taipei Times, this shadowy new vessel is an improved variant of the Type 052C, itself a man-of-war touted by Chinese naval enthusiasts as “China Aegis,” an equal to state-of-the-art U.S. Navy vessels. (We remain unconvinced by these claims.) The Type 052D is a stealthy, 6,000-ton, gas-turbine-driven ship boasting 64 vertical launch cells (VLS in Western parlance). A VLS cell is essentially a canister embedded in a ship’s hull. Each can disgorge one to four missiles, depending on the missile load. VLS allows for quick firing of anti-air, anti-ship, or land-attack missiles without the bother, delay, and technical headaches associated with uploading munitions onto launchers from magazines deep within the ship.

    On paper, at least, the Type 052D appears to be a more modest version of the U.S. Navy’s Arleigh Burke-class DDGs and Ticonderoga-class guided-missile cruisers. The PLAN DDG displaces less than the American vessels, which displace 11,000 tons and 9,600 tons respectively. This indicates that it has smaller fuel capacity and thus shorter cruising range. On the other hand,its dimensions are more than adequate for the types of regional missions it will likely be assigned in the “near seas” or the Indian Ocean. Its armament is smaller than that of the Burkes or Ticonderogas, which carry 96 and 122 VLS cells, respectively. But again, this Chinese destroyer packs a punch for localized conflicts in Asian waters. It will also operate under shore fire support in most cases, evening the firepower balance.

    Since commencing its naval buildup in earnest in the late 1990s, Beijing has taken an eminently sensible approach to fleet development. So long as China’s strategic surroundings remained hospitable and the United States was content guaranteeing safe passage through international waters and skies, the PLAN could pursue leisurely “fleet experimentation.” Shipwrights built small classes of ships, kept the best features of each, and discarded the rest. This risk-averse approach made technological sense while the Chinese were attempting a qualitative leap in naval engineering.

    The Chinese surface fleet, which consists of five relatively new destroyer classes of no more than two hulls apiece, bears out this go-slow approach. These ships need not remain close to home. The PLAN can extract real value from them, dispatching experimental vessels to distant waters to fine-tune crews’ skills, develop doctrine, and smooth out technical kinks. It has doubtlessly done so during counter-piracy patrols in the Indian Ocean.

    Ultimately, however, the PLAN had to settle on a single design for mass production. The timing appears auspicious for drawing this phase of Chinese fleet experimentation to a close. The PLAN’s first aircraft carrier, the refitted Soviet-built flattop Varyag, has undergone a series of sea trials. Recent reports indicate that the PLAN has been flight testing the J-15, a reverse-engineered derivative of the Russian Su-33 fighter plane that can operate from the Varyag’s decks. The chief element missing from an initial PLAN carrier group is a versatile picket ship to defend the capital ship against air and missile threats. The Type 052D could be it.

    Admittedly,a new DDG will only complete the strictly material dimension of China’s carrier ambitions. Forming a Chinese carrier battle group on par with its American counterparts will remain a formidable challenge.Chinese planners will need to combine the carrier, its air wing, surface combatants, and possibly a nuclear attack submarine screen into a seamless, mutually supporting team.This is no easy feat.

    But the destroyer’s usefulness will not hinge entirely on the fate of China’s carrier program. These are workhorse ships. A multirole DDG could be put to many other uses while the PLAN methodically masters the art of carrier operations. Notably, the Type 052D could join a surface action group (SAG) or amphibious task force to support and defend high-value ships other than carriers. It could also act as the centerpiece of such a group depending on the mission.

    And it could do so throughout broad sea areas. Over the past five years numerous surface action groups, numbering up to eleven ships, have transited the international straits separating the Ryukyu island chain to reach the open Western Pacific. Four such groups voyaged to the high seas in the first six months of 2012 alone. Such naval activism strongly suggests that the surface action group will be a key organizing principle around which surface combatants will be deployed, with the Type 052D leading the way.

    What will they do? Specifically, improved Luyangs could fend off air attacks against China’s Soviet-built Sovremenny-class destroyers, which specialize in ship-killing engagements. They could also accompany the small but growing numbers of amphibious assault ships Beijing has constructed to project power ashore. Such expeditionary strike groups easily outmatch those deployed by Southeast Asian navies. They would be particularly well-suited to seize islands in the South China Sea. The Type 052D, furthermore, could extend its protective air-defense umbrella over the nimble and stealthy Type 022 Houbei catamarans. These craft belie their diminutive size,sporting long-range anti-ship cruise missiles that allow them to assert or deny control of the seas vis-à-vis superior fleets.

    In a Taiwan contingency, moreover, cutting-edge DDGs would offer Beijing a sea-based air-defense option that would further threaten the survivability of the embattled Taiwan Air Force.With its long detection and engagement horizon, a single Type 052D could cover wide swathes of airspace near or over the island, beyond the effective firingrange of shore-based surface-to-air missile units emplaced on the Chinese mainland. Type 052Ds cruising east of Taiwan could in effect surround the island’s air defenders, mounting a threat from all points of the compass when pilots take to the air.

    Finally, the PLAN could dispatch such imposing frontline warships overseas, showcasing China’s military prowess to foreign audiences while advancing naval diplomacy. The bottom line is that more—and more capable—large-displacement destroyers will allow China to imaginatively combine different elements of its naval power for a wider range of missions.

    In closing, it is worth speculating whether the regional naval balance of power will shift as a result of China’s DDG buildup. The short answer: yes. A casual calculation based on the IISS Military Balance is telling. If the PLAN puts ten Type 052Ds to sea, as the Taipei Times forecasts, then China will boast a fleet of six teen Aegis-equivalent warships—even in the unlikely case that it builds no more combatant ships of this type. By comparison, Japan and South Korea, the only Asian powers with similar naval heavyweights in their inventories,currently possess six and three Aegis-equipped destroyers, respectively.

    On paper, at least, this officially makes China’s the leading indigenous Asian navy. Once the 052D contingent joins the fleet, the PLAN can expect to take on any regional fleet—excluding the U.S. Navy, of course—with better-than-average prospects of success. It will command a 16:6 advantage over the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force, 16:3 over the South Korean Navy, and 16:9 over the combined Japanese and South Korean fleets. That’s significant.

    Will the prospect of a tilt in China’s favor spur a new round of naval construction across the region in the coming years? Much depends on the United States’ staying power in the region, and on Asian countries’ capacity and willingness to bear the costs of an arms race. Now that the debate about the PLAN’s supposed building pause is over, it is time to ponder this troubling prospect.

    An interesting read on wiki:
    Type 052D destroyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
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  3. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Hmm, 64 VLS is not much. Heck in the Russian Aegis thread we are actually trying to decide if the P-15A Kolkata class destroyer has 80 VLS(minimum) or 128 VLS(maximum) with 112 VLS cells being the most logical.

    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...sia-develop-naval-missile-defense-system.html

    I thought the Type 052D was something like the Slava class destroyer or the Arleigh Burke.

    OTOH, the Russians are planning on getting their older Kirov class ships commissioned to bring it to 4, if they are lucky. That followed by a new nuclear powered destroyer with the design phase to start soon.

    But we can note that PLAN is looking forward to deploy new destroyers at the same or similar level as IN is.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2012
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  4. ice berg

    ice berg Senior Member Senior Member

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    The number of VLS dont always matter. Consider that some of missiles can be quad packed.

    Not to mention it is more about network. That is what really sets USN leagues ahead, not the number of VLS.

    While the russian are still in the planning stage. the PLAN has already field their Aegis equivelent. The first pair of 052C was like several years ago. Not say that they are as able as US counterpart, of course. But they will probably do what is intended.

    I will say that the speed of PLAN is alot faster than IN. The delay was because relocation of major shipyards and time to familiar with the systems on board.

    Now they are heading for full production.
     
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  5. J20!

    J20! Senior Member Senior Member

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    But you seem to be forgetting that the 052D's VLS cells are all strike length cells. Being 9m deep and 0.85m wide CCL cells, they offer Burke-like flexibility in terms of being able to launch ASM's(YJ62, YJ83, YJ12), TLAM's(the PLAN's new navalized DH10),anti-submarine missiles(CY-1) and long range sams(the new 200km range HHQ9A). Even the mk41 cells on the Burkes can only launch hot launch missiles, whilst the new CCL VLS on the 052D's can launch both cold and hot launch missiles.

    The Kolkata's have 64 cells as well, but these can only carry the not so large Barak 8, nothing else. You cant fit ASM's or TLAM's in the Kolkata's VLS cells, since they were designed to only fit one SAM each. So even if the batch 2 Kolkata's have 80 VLS cells, all those cells can only launch Barak 8, whilst the 052D's 64 cells could carry a mixture of 48 HHQ9A long range SAM's as well as 16 2200km range DH10 TLAM's.

    Why would you need 128 SAMs anyway? Even the Burkes with their 96 Mk41 strike length cells rarely carry more than 48 Standard's and the Euro DDG's (Horizons and the Daring's) both carry only 16 long range SAMs (Aster 30's) to compliment 32 30km range Aster 15's. Not to mention that even Korea's massive Sejong the Great class use 48 of their 128 VLS cells to carry 32 TLAMs and 16 ASROC anti-sub missiles.

    In terms of a numbers comparison, the PLAN will operate more than twice the number of modern DDG's the IN will as the IN plans to acquire 3 P15A's and 4 P15B's whilst the PLAN is acquiring 6 052C's and a minimum of 10 Type 052D's. That's not even taking into account the two S300 equipped Type 051C DDG's.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2012
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  6. Apollyon

    Apollyon Führer Senior Member

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    Off Topic : Kolkata Class will most probably carry 64-80 Barak-8 LR-SAM and 48 Barak-1 (as a CIWS) + 16 Brahmos :evil:, most probably and i think tonnage of Kolkata Class Destroyer is somewhere between 052C and 052D :confused:
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2012
  7. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Only a few can. If you plan on using the HHQ-9, each cell will have one. If you plan on carrying 48 like before that will leave 16 for LACM and AShM. Quite like the P-15A.

    I am not so sure the version of S-300 you are using is capable of mid course interception. There may be one ship with an experimental mid course interceptor like how we have 2 corvettes and one destroyer capable of firing off Prithvi missiles.

    No doubt. We cannot counter your build rates for quite sometime.
     
  8. J20!

    J20! Senior Member Senior Member

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    052D pics:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  9. ice berg

    ice berg Senior Member Senior Member

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    China launches new destroyer - Globaltimes.cn


    China has launched the lead ship of its second-generation Aegis destroyer among a new wave of shipbuilding, while the hull number of the country's first aircraft carrier was also revealed, Chinese online news portals reported.

    According to major online military news sites such as Netease, the newest destroyer was launched in a shipyard in Shanghai at the end of August. As the most sophisticated combat ships, Aegis destroyers are commonly referred to as air-defense destroyers equipped with phased array radars and modern ship-to-air missiles, which enable the ships to provide regional air defense shields for the entire fleet.

    Meanwhile, photos released by the news portals showed that China's first aircraft carrier, a carrier hull bought from Ukraine and overhauled by the Chinese navy, was painted with the hull number "16."

    The carrier may be named after Liaoning Province, as the giant ship was overhauled in Liaoning's Dalian shipyard, the Shandong-based Qilu Evening News reported on Tuesday, adding that the hull number suggested the carrier is one step closer to being commissioned.

    The new type destroyer is the highlight in the second wave of massive shipbuilding after 2000. After an interval of about seven years, a total of six follow-up ships of the first-generation Aegis destroyers have been launched in very short intervals since the end of 2010, with at least one already being commissioned this year, according to Modern Ships and other military magazines on the Chinese mainland.

    "The mass production of the Aegis destroyers shows that after seven years of sea trials and evaluations of domestic radar and missile systems, the first -generation Aegis destroyers have matured," Lan Yun, editor of Modern Ships, a Beijing-based military magazine, told the Global Times.

    The first wave of shipbuilding after 2000 saw the complement of four modern destroyers, among which were the lead and second ships of the first-generation Aegis destroyers dubbed as type 052C, with hull numbers 170 and 171, which were commissioned in 2005.

    "Judging from the photos released, the lead ship of the second generation Aegis, presumably type 052D, seems to have a bigger main gun and 64 missile vertical launch tubes that are compatible with several types of missiles," Lan said, noting that the new type of destroyer is more fit to escort the carrier battle group.

    "We'll see more ships of the 052D class coming," he said.

    Rear Admiral Yin Zhuo told China Central Television in a recent interview on Sunday that the Chinese navy's equipment will witness major improvements in the near future.


    Seems like they got a name for the new carrier. :cool2:
     
  10. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Yeah. I knew the cells are canisters capable of launching any type. However the HHQ-9 is 7m long and around 0.5m in dia. So, that's one each. I think you say the same in the next paragraph.

    You are correct and incorrect at the same time. It is indeed true that the Barak VLS can only fire Barak 8s. However you have forgotten that the numbers I posted also includes VLS for 16 Brahmos missiles. Now the Brahmos is a large missile. 8.5m long, 0.6m in diameter. The VLS for Brahmos are quite large.

    It is not 128 SAMs. It is 112 SAMs + 16 Brahmos. Out of those 112, 32 are CIWS Barak 1s.

    Who knows what the Navy is thinking...

    I don't doubt it. PLAN will be bigger than IN. But I am not talking about a numbers game in fleet strength. I am just pointing out that while the 052D will have more flexibility in choosing it's payload, it is still carrying a similar firepower as the P-15A.

    We don't have as many problems to handle as you do. Our primary irritant is Pakistan Navy and it is a flea compared to ours.

    This is a pic of the P-15A model,
    You will notice the 16 cell VLS right away, near the gun.
    [​IMG]

    Also, this
    [​IMG]

    The govt had also approved the construction of 4 P-15Bs apart from the 3 P-15As. This was in 2009. A contract was signed in Jan 2011 for P-15B. So, if we consider the 052D to be at the same level as the P-15A and B, then we have similar numbers for these two. 052C are primarily AAW destroyers, not a big problem once the 7 P-17As start coming in. Aegis may be a part of it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
  11. J20!

    J20! Senior Member Senior Member

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    I agree. Quad packing hhq9's would need MASSIVE VLS tubes considering how big these SAMs are compared to barak 8 or Aster 30, which would be wildly inefficient. There are currently no mid range SAMs in the PLAN's inventory that would quad pack comfortably in the new CCL cells, hhq16 would be a tight squeeze and its too expensive to quad pack anyway.

    But during satory defense expo, China displayed a new SAM call "sky dragon" ,the missile is in fact a derivative of the SD-10 or PL-12 AAM. The 50km range points to it being fitted with a booster Aster 15 style. During the 2006 zhuhai airshow, there were CGI's showing this SD-10derivative in a naval VLS. So if there is a quad pack missile planned for this VLS its probably this SAM system.

    http://worldwide-defence.blogspot.com/2012/06/sky-dragon-air-defence-missile-system.html

    Ooooh! I tend to forget that Brahmos is VLS launched. But are those VLS tubes integrated with any other missile type? eg, the VLS tubes on the 054A frigate are compatible with the hhq16 and the CY1 ASW missile.

    If we consider Barak 1 missiles in the final tally, then we should also consider HQ10(export designation FL3000N CIWS missiles on the 052D as they have a very similar range. Apparently(this is what is being said on most Chinese forums), the second type 0730 CIWS gun on the 052C's rear is to be replaced with an HQ10 missile launcher, similar to those installed on the ex-Varyag and Type 056 corvettes. Problem is no one knows how many missiles will be on said launcher. 8 as on the 056 frigate, or 18 cell as on the ex-Varyag...

    [​IMG]

    Don't forget that both the 052C and the P15A are primarily AAW destroyers. The 15A may pack a considerable ASuW punch, but its still AAW focused, and in terms of AAW capability, you cant discount the 052C's anti air power considering 360 degree AESA coverage backed up with what's basically an improved S300 missile which ranges at 150km(that's more than twice the range of barak 8), even if it gets AEGIS, and that's a big if, it'd be hard for a Shivalik to top that.

    So I'd say the 15A and the 052C are rough equivalents, and the 052D will match the 15B in AAW (considering those massive new arrays and the new datlink), exceed it in land attack(2200km DH10 vs 1000km Nirbay, and the ability to switch SAMs for extra TLAMs), match it in ASW(the 15A may have two heli hangers, but the 052D makes up for that with CY1 missile carriage), but even if it carries the YJ12 400km range supersonic ASM, it'll still carry 8, so both 15A and B exceed the 052D in ASuW capability... But all that's just my opinion...
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
  12. J20!

    J20! Senior Member Senior Member

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    China launches new destroyer
    Global Times | 2012-9-5 1:00:06

    By Xu Tianran

    China launches new destroyer - Globaltimes.cn

    China has launched the lead ship of its second-generation Aegis destroyer among a new wave of shipbuilding, while the hull number of the country's first aircraft carrier was also revealed, Chinese online news portals reported.

    According to major online military news sites such as Netease, the newest destroyer was launched in a shipyard in Shanghai at the end of August. As the most sophisticated combat ships, Aegis destroyers are commonly referred to as air-defense destroyers equipped with phased array radars and modern ship-to-air missiles, which enable the ships to provide regional air defense shields for the entire fleet.

    Meanwhile, photos released by the news portals showed that China's first aircraft carrier, a carrier hull bought from Ukraine and overhauled by the Chinese navy, was painted with the hull number "16."

    The carrier may be named after Liaoning Province, as the giant ship was overhauled in Liaoning's Dalian shipyard, the Shandong-based Qilu Evening News reported on Tuesday, adding that the hull number suggested the carrier is one step closer to being commissioned.

    The new type destroyer is the highlight in the second wave of massive shipbuilding after 2000. After an interval of about seven years, a total of six follow-up ships of the first-generation Aegis destroyers have been launched in very short intervals since the end of 2010, with at least one already being commissioned this year, according to Modern Ships and other military magazines on the Chinese mainland.

    "The mass production of the Aegis destroyers shows that after seven years of sea trials and evaluations of domestic radar and missile systems, the first -generation Aegis destroyers have matured," Lan Yun, editor of Modern Ships, a Beijing-based military magazine, told the Global Times.

    The first wave of shipbuilding after 2000 saw the complement of four modern destroyers, among which were the lead and second ships of the first-generation Aegis destroyers dubbed as type 052C, with hull numbers 170 and 171, which were commissioned in 2005.

    "Judging from the photos released, the lead ship of the second generation Aegis, presumably type 052D, seems to have a bigger main gun and 64 missile vertical launch tubes that are compatible with several types of missiles," Lan said, noting that the new type of destroyer is more fit to escort the carrier battle group.

    "We'll see more ships of the 052D class coming," he said.

    Rear Admiral Yin Zhuo told China Central Television in a recent interview on Sunday that the Chinese navy's equipment will witness major improvements in the near future.
     
  13. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    We don't really know. Brahmos VLS is actually called Universal VL Module. Don't know if Universal means different missiles or different platforms,ie, from Frigates, to Destroyers to Submarines.

    P-15B is expected to carry both Brahmos and Nirbhay. Maybe P-15A can be upgraded to do the same later on because both share the same hull. Don't know if it is a combination of both or two separate systems.

    Bigger ships = Bigger numbers.

    P-15A is not an AAW destroyer, it may merely have a large complement of AA missiles. It is a multirole destroyer. Comes with 2 helicopters too.

    HHQ-9 is good for BM capability but not very good for point defence capability. While the range is good, it is something like the RIM-174 and not Barak 8. RIM-174 comes with active homing. HHQ-9 does not. Barak 8 is something like the RIM-162(semiactive homing), but with active homing. Meaning it is small and more agile in tackling incoming AShMs and comes with a better seeker. It merely combines the capabilities of the RIM-174 and RIM-162.

    If you notice the HHQ-9 is actually very similar to RIM-174. HHQ-9 may eventually get an active seeker, if not already. China does not yet have something equal to the RIM-162 and this is a rather important capability. US Destroyers will see both 162 and 174 on ships. 162s are quad packed in Mk 41s. 162s are slightly smaller than Barak 8 and has a range of 50Km.

    Comparatively we don't have something like the RIM-174. Maybe a variant of AAD will see Naval service someday.

    Also, I don't really know what Chinese missiles can be quad packed inside the VLS. HHQ-9 and DH-10 are big missiles. Only C-802 appears it can be dual packed, if it can afford to.

    This also depends on the upgrade capability on the P-15A. If you notice the 052C is smaller in size compared to the P-15A and more importantly, the P-15A is carrying smaller missiles like the Barak 8 apart from the 16 cell VLS. We don't know if extra VLS can be added to give it a land attack capability. In fact, P-15A could be a 7500-8000 ton destroyer. These are things we will know only after the P-15A sees service. Until then the information we have is very limited.

    DRDO is also trying to make new Anti-submarine missiles for use on ships. P-15A/B may see it.

    Btw, Shivalik is P-17, not the new P-17A.
    Concept model released by the Navy,
    [​IMG]

    This is the P-15B model released at the Defence Expo this year.
    [​IMG]
     
  14. J20!

    J20! Senior Member Senior Member

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    I beg to differ.

    WRT the HHQ9's seeker, its targeting combines midcourse inertial / datalink and terminal active radar homing guidance, other sources state that it employs a dual mode semi-active radar homing and scanning infrared seeker, claimed by Janes to be an imaging IR seeker, as in the naval S300FM found on the two Type 051C destroyers and the Peter the Great Kirov Class cruiser. I'd say the latter because if the S300FM were superior to the HQ9, the PLAN would've opted for it instead of creating a naval variant of the HQ9, the HHQ9. But we don't really know so I wont speculate.

    The HHQ9 is sufficiently maneuverable to engage low flying cruise missiles, utilizing additional cruciform strakes when compared to the 5V55/48N6 family from which it is derived, to improve endgame turning performance and improve post-burnout glide range.

    The downside of engaging low flying cruise missiles with a missile like the HHQ9 is that range is significantly reduced when compared to engaging aircraft, which proves to be inefficient considering how large and expensive missiles like the RIM 174 and HHQ9 are, thus the employ of ESSM by the Americans. It doesn't translate to either being less maneuverable than the Barak 8. Don't forget that both the HHQ9 and S300 employ advanced TVC for exceptional maneuverability and are both significantly faster than the Barak 8 (mach 2 vs mach 4.2).

     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
  15. AprilLyrics

    AprilLyrics Regular Member

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    P-15B model has a better look than 052D.congratulations for india's achievements.
     
  16. ice berg

    ice berg Senior Member Senior Member

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  17. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    The problem with this conclusion is that it assumes that Japan, South Korea, Australia and USA's surface forces remain at current. I think it's safe to assume that a massive Chinese build up of sophisticated DDGs will touch off a wave of counter-build up from its wary neighbors and the US. This is not discounting the mini-build up that smaller neighbors will make especially with the bellicose Chinese actions in the SCS lately.
     
  18. ice berg

    ice berg Senior Member Senior Member

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    The PLAN buildups lacks behind those of US and Japan. I dont see how some new DDGS are gonna cause some counterbuild up from them.
    The PH, vietnamese etc on the other hand, may be more worried.

    However in an arm race with China, they dont stand a chance.
    Not that PLAN care much about them anyway. They are already moving focus away to become a blue water navy.
     
  19. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    You don't think this will cause worry in Japan, Washington, Canberra, etc. to cause a new counter build-up? BTW, those smaller countries with their booming economies, give them 20 years at least and they'll have sufficient forces to irritate Beijing (not the ability to undermine the PLAN of course). The importance of these smaller countries like the Philippines and Vietnam is compounded by the fact that they are near China and with opportunistic moves from the US and its allies can play host to the latter's assets aimed at countering Beijing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
  20. ice berg

    ice berg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Why will it cause worry in Japan and Washington? It is inevitable and they already know years if not decades in advance.

    The energy security is too important for China.

    The booming economies are becoming more dependent on the chinese market. Give them 20 more years, and they will become even more so.

    US can not replace China because of the geography.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
  21. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/05/w...itary-spending-more-than-11-percent.html?_r=0

    The increase, reported to be 11.2 percent, is in step with the increased pace of military spending by China over the past decade, but the official statement did not give details of what weapons systems China is developing or offer a description of military strategy beyond protection of the country’s sovereignty. China analysts said the true figure was probably significantly higher and was underreported because much of the military’s decision-making is kept opaque.


    And China's energy route will remain vulnerable no matter what its capabilities are...

    [​IMG]


    Maybe you should go back to the drawing board to redo your strategic calculations. With the too early aggressiveness of China in the region its smaller neighbors are already drawing up alternative plans to rebalance their trade dependence or at least mitigate them. Besides, trade is always a 2-way street, just as China's neighbors needs Chinese trades, China also need these trades with its neighbors, and yes, even those smaller ones.

    And, you should always remember that before the flowering of China's manufacturing sector, its neighbors were not too dependent on it.
     

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