Trump Makes Huge Anti-Pakistan Move

Haldiram

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There is no proof that bush helped in the airlift. You can't believe 1 journalist just because he CLAIMS he spoke to a so called senior intelligence officer. The whole story can very well be a ploy by ISI to malign USA and defend pakis.

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Are nahi bhai. There was reports in Indian media as well. This is not from a random intelligence officer. This was claimed by NSA Brajesh Mishra.



http://www.rediff.com/us/2002/jan/24ny2.htm :
India protests airlift of Pakistanis
from Kunduz

India has protested to the United States and Britain over Pakistan's airlifting of its nationals and Taliban fighters after they were cornered in Kunduz during American action in Afghanistan, National Security Adviser Brajesh Mishra was quoted as saying.

Diplomatic notes protesting the airlift were sent to the US and Britain. Neither responded, investigative journalist Seymour Hersh quoted Mishra as saying in an article in New Yorkermagazine.

Mishra said 5,000 Pakistanis and Taliban fighters were airlifted by Pakistan after the fall of Kunduz.
The US had denied reports of the airlift, but the article quoted its intelligence and military officials as saying they indeed took place at Musharraf's instance.

The article said India's Research and Analysis had excellent access to the Northern Alliance and a highly sophisticated ability to intercept electronic communications.
An Indian military adviser was quoted as saying that when the airlift began, "we knew within minutes".

The Indian officials repeatedly declared that the airlift had rescued not only members of the Pakistani military, but Al Qaeda fighters as well.

The article quoted RAW's senior analyst for Pakistani and Afghan issues as saying the most extensive rescue efforts took place on three nights at the time of the fall of Kunduz.

Indian agents had concluded that 8,000 or more men were trapped inside the city in the last days of the siege, roughly half of whom were Pakistanis, with Afghans, Uzbeks, Chechens, and various Arab mercenaries making up the rest.
 

hit&run

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"Your facts hurt my opinions" - Your logic, basically. :pound:

Let us agree that one must not ask for news citations if you are going to label 4 different media outlets as propaganda because it doesn't suit your fairytale narrative.

No one is going to waste more time substantiating the claims of 4 media houses against the fantasy world of one random internet stranger who claims all news to be propaganda.

The forum is for everyone, you are welcome to not respond. A little bit of humility goes a long way. Learn to accept new facts when they widen your limited worldview. It will do you a world of good.
I leave it on members to read through your posts and mine to see who has shown humility. Your ego got hurt when I asked you to prove your claim.

I don't know why you are harping on 4 citation again and again. I wonder you can even comprehend what you post.

I read 1st link which you then edited the post to add 3 more links.

The 1st one you failed to even comprehend but made ridiculous conclusions. That link on 3 occasions says that Pakistan misused the faith USA showed. How it can be American complicity when in a good faith they heed to Musharraf's request.

If you do not know the meaning of Complicit I can post it for you here.

complicity
kəmˈplɪsɪti/
noun
  1. the fact or condition of being involved with others in an activity that is unlawful or morally wrong.
    "they were accused of complicity in the attempt to overthrow the government"
    synonyms: collusion, involvement, collaboration, connivance, abetment; More


I read another link of Obama administration which is again openly critical of Bush administration. These people are openly critical of their own decisions, explicitly blame Pakistan for airlifting AQ Osama. How it made America complicit that you are stitching long conspiracy theories.

The laugh is on you and generally people who use emoticons are the one who lack depth in their argument.

I also think you have a comprehension problem which I can not help to fix.

I requested you not to quote me back, I am putting you on ignore.
 

Haldiram

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I leave it on members to read through your posts and mine to see who has shown humility. Your ego got hurt when I asked you to prove your claim.

I don't know why you are harping on 4 citation again and again. I wonder you can even comprehend what you post.

I read 1st link which you then edited the post to add 3 more links.

The 1st one you failed to even comprehend but made ridiculous conclusions. That link on 3 occasions says that Pakistan misused the faith USA showed. How it can be American complicity when in a good faith they heed to Musharraf's request.

If you do not know the meaning of Complicit I can post it for you here.

complicity
kəmˈplɪsɪti/
noun
  1. the fact or condition of being involved with others in an activity that is unlawful or morally wrong.
    "they were accused of complicity in the attempt to overthrow the government"
    synonyms: collusion, involvement, collaboration, connivance, abetment; More


I read another link of Obama administration which is again openly critical of Bush administration. These people are openly critical of their own decisions, explicitly blame Pakistan for airlifting AQ Osama. How it made America complicit that you are stitching long conspiracy theories.

The laugh is on you and generally people who use emoticons are the one who lack depth in their argument.

I also think you have a comprehension problem which I am not to help to fix.

I requested you not to quote me back, I am putting you on ignore.
Short fuse has come back with more rants and no facts :pound:

What good faith did the USA show? Musharraf's request was pretty clear, he wanted to airlift the fighters to be used in Kashmir and the US allowed it. What else were they hoping Musharraf would transport the jihadis to? Disneyland?
 
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indus

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The link doesn't say Pakistan backstabbed Pakistan. It says America voluntarily helped Pakistan evacuate their fighters, and was caught lying about Pakistani backstabbing.

The former is a fact, the latter is an American claim. I think a 5 year old would probably understand the difference.
Sorry to interject but all three links conclude that Mushy asked for evacuation of Pak army men from Kunduz and US only authorised that. So as to avoid destabilisation of Pak Govt. But under its pretext Taliban, AQ and other terrorist fighters were evacuated. So it is infact backstabbing by Pak whichever way you look at it.

Added later: hope the thread does not become a tennis match between two posters.
 

Haldiram

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Sorry to interject but all three links conclude that Mushy asked for evacuation of Pak army men from Kunduz and US only authorised that. So as to avoid destabilisation of Pak Govt. But under its pretext Taliban, AQ and other terrorist fighters were evacuated. So it is infact backstabbing by Pak whichever way you look at it.

Added later: hope the thread does not become a tennis match between two posters.
US Secretly Authorizes Airlift of Pakistani and Taliban Fighters

At the request of the Pakistani government, the US secretly allows rescue flights into the besieged Taliban stronghold of Kunduz, in Northern Afghanistan, to save Pakistanis fighting for the Taliban (and against US forces) and bring them back to Pakistan. Pakistan’s President “Musharraf won American support for the airlift by warning that the humiliation of losing hundreds—and perhaps thousands—of Pakistani Army men and intelligence operatives would jeopardize his political survival.”

There were around 8000 total fighters airlifted. Pakistani intelligence officers were numbering only a couple of hundred. Pakistan sent 6 cargo planes for the evacuation and these planes ran to and fro flights for 2 days continuously. I think the US could have guessed that one doesn't take so many flights to evacuate a few hundred officers.

The US said the same thing about Pakistani nukes : "We gave them foreign aid to buy polio drops and they fooled us and build the nuclear bomb".
 
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Kshatriya87

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Are nahi bhai. There was reports in Indian media as well. This is not from a random intelligence officer. This was claimed by NSA Brajesh Mishra.



http://www.rediff.com/us/2002/jan/24ny2.htm :
India protests airlift of Pakistanis
from Kunduz
Bro, if you read the article carefully, nowhere does it blame US for any involvement in the airlift.

It only says that pakis airlifted, India protested to US & Britain and the later didn't reply.

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Haldiram

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Bro, if you read the article carefully, nowhere does it blame US for any involvement in the airlift.

It only says that pakis airlifted, India protested to US & Britain and the later didn't reply.

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You're right. There's some reading between the lines involved. This was mentioned in at least 3 books written by various people.

There's a book by CIA employee "First In : How Seven CIA Officers Opened the War on Terror in Afghanistan", another one by B Raman "Terrorist State as a Frontline Ally" and the other one is "Decent into Chaos" (this one is by a Muslim journalist so it can be ignored). But all the books basically hint that the overall deal between the US and Musharraf was that the US would allow Musharraf a face saver to maintain his credibility with the Taliban because they wanted him to stay in power. These fighters eventually did kill Indians and also NATO troops but it was seen as an a necessary cost to pay for the US to retain their man at Pakistani helm of affairs.

Now they claim ignorance. One doesn't become superpower by being ignorant.
 

Kshatriya87

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You're right. There's some reading between the lines involved. This was mentioned in at least 3 books written by various people.

There's a book by CIA employee "First In : How Seven CIA Officers Opened the War on Terror in Afghanistan", another one by B Raman "Terrorist State as a Frontline Ally" and the other one is "Decent into Chaos" (this one is by a Muslim journalist so it can be ignored). But all the books basically hint that the overall deal between the US and Musharraf was that the US would allow Musharraf a face saver to maintain his credibility with the Taliban because they wanted him to stay in power. These fighters eventually did kill Indians and also NATO troops but it was seen as an a necessary cost to pay for the US to retain their man at Pakistani helm of affairs.

Now they claim ignorance. One doesn't become superpower by being ignorant.
Im not saying US is innocent. I never have. But just in this airlift case it's not as clear as day.

Maybe the US gave permission for some guys to be lifted but pakis have clearly misused this opportunity.

It's like we say, "ungli diya toh hath pakad liya"

Or

"Kandhe pe rakha toh kaan me moot diya"

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Haldiram

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Im not saying US is innocent. I never have. But just in this airlift case it's not as clear as day.

Maybe the US gave permission for some guys to be lifted but pakis have clearly misused this opportunity.

It's like we say, "ungli diya toh hath pakad liya"

Or

"Kandhe pe rakha toh kaan me moot diya"

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk
See these writeups, interesting stuff :

https://easterncampaign.com/2007/05/13/revisiting-the-airlift-of-evil-a-blunder-via-pragmatism/

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2002/01/28/the-getaway-2
 

Shredder

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This is what comes from being a b1tch to a higher power. To the porkies across the border, enjoy the fruits of your labour and loss for the US, you vermin are destined to the same fate with respect to your pork crazy chinese brothers eventually. Pakis, the most inferior race with superior delusions, where have your delusions and misdemeanors landed you guys finally :lol:
 

Haldiram

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This seems overrated. If they had levers, they could have managed to use them to create an overall ecosystem in Afghanistan that favors US interests at least. They had done a survey of Afghanistan before the war began. They had found Copper, Cobalt and other mines. Their companies want to extract it but the Taliban attacks don't stop. They want to make it look like they have held off money from Pakistan but it is Pakistan which has held off the Americans from claiming their war spoils.

They've spent a lot but they didn't get much from it, except for the Morphene that Pharma giants are getting from poppy cultivation, but they could have done that in any South American banana republic. They didn't have to travel so far just to become poppy farmers.

A stalemate favors Pakistan because they are not the ones who have any investments at stake. They will let it drag on and let American ROI from the war degrade.

This overconfidence of "we are very strong" is a typical American threat. Why not use it then? Muricans on their forums claim that they could have won Vietnam if they were allowed to go all out. Well, they did go all out. They even dropped agent orange on Vietnamese farms, and still lost. People are so used to seeing the US as invincible that they can't digest the fact that this power is waning. They haven't had a conclusive victory in Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan. Even their covert color revolutions in Venezuela and Brazil and Cuba in the past 3 years have failed to yield a regime change. What is this 'great power' waiting for. Show us some magic tricks.

Take a look at how Pakistan views the conflict. We often write them off, but they have a plan :

 

Vinod DX9

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IMG_20180105_195723_046.JPG

Surprise is 32% people still has hope Trump will act against Pakistan in reality....hope they are right
 

Yggdrasil

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This seems overrated. If they had levers, they could have managed to use them to create an overall ecosystem in Afghanistan that favors US interests at least. They had done a survey of Afghanistan before the war began. They had found Copper, Cobalt and other mines. Their companies want to extract it but the Taliban attacks don't stop. They want to make it look like they have held off money from Pakistan but it is Pakistan which has held off the Americans from claiming their war spoils.

They've spent a lot but they didn't get much from it, except for the Morphene that Pharma giants are getting from poppy cultivation, but they could have done that in any South American banana republic. They didn't have to travel so far just to become poppy farmers.

A stalemate favors Pakistan because they are not the ones who have any investments at stake. They will let it drag on and let American ROI from the war degrade.

This overconfidence of "we are very strong" is a typical American threat. Why not use it then? Muricans on their forums claim that they could have won Vietnam if they were allowed to go all out. Well, they did go all out. They even dropped agent orange on Vietnamese farms, and still lost. People are so used to seeing the US as invincible that they can't digest the fact that this power is waning. They haven't had a conclusive victory in Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan. Even their covert color revolutions in Venezuela and Brazil and Cuba in the past 3 years have failed to yield a regime change. What is this 'great power' waiting for. Show us some magic tricks.

Take a look at how Pakistan views the conflict. We often write them off, but they have a plan :

Sir, interesting post, but I have a different take on the matter.

First, do not listen to Hamid "Donkey flowers" Gul. He is delusional like the rest of the Pakis who think they're the center of the Islamic world, like they have some destiny to fulfill. They're the stray dogs of the Islamic world, to be used and discarded by the true inheritors of Islam, which are, always have been, and always will be the Arabs. He's another mentally defective megalomaniac, full of bravado and low, manipulative cunning - Pakistan has produced tons of those.

I remember a story someone recounted about Shivaji's encounter with Afzal Khan. It goes like this:

At the start of the meeting Afzal Khan graciously embraced Shivaji as per custom. According to the Maratha chronicles, he then suddenly tightened his clasp, gripped Shivaji's neck in his left arm and struck him with a kitar. Shivaji was saved by his armor, recovered and counter-attacked Afzal Khan with wagh nakh, disemboweling him. He then stabbed Khan with his bichawa, and ran out of the tent towards his men.​

Afzal Khan cried out and Sayyid Banda rushed to the scene and attacked Shivaji with his patta, cutting his turban. Shivaji's bodyguard Jiva Mahala intervened, chopping off Sayyid Banda' s right arm in a quick combat before killing him.​

Apparently, as the story goes, Banda was a skilled warrior, and Shivaji knew that his men had little chance against him. Therefore, for months on end before the fateful day, Mahala was told to practice one thing and one thing only - a stroke of the sword that was meant to dismember the opponent. The idea was that if he mastered that ONE thing, it was enough to disable the adversary, and all other battle skills made no difference.

In our post-independence strategic scenario, Pakistan has been a bit like that - its entire and sole strategic purpose has been to harm India in any way possible. All of its military, political and economic weight has been applied towards that one single aim - to disable India, slow it down, wear it down with the war of a thousand cuts. They're under-developed and have frankly given up on all other aspects of the country - economic, technological, social, civilizational, etc. Its entire identity rests on the promise of India's ruin.

India is different - it had a self-proclaimed "Pandit" as its leader, a living, breathing turd called Nehru for whom national interest was the very last thing under consideration. India has been shooting itself in foot against an opponent that is united to undermine it. A rabid, murderous dog against a sleeping tiger is no contest at all.

You think the Americans have not won in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan (let's leave Vietnam aside). But I argue that they have. The entire plan is in fact DESTABILIZATION, that is in fact the victory condition, and not a stable democratic government which makes people happy. You think the US army could not have taken care of a bunch of rag-tag amateurs like ISIS? You think they didn't know ISIS was selling oil to Turkey? The US has bombed the living hell out of far more populated countries - ISIS was ALLOWED to survive, and if not for Russia helping Assad, it would still have survived.

The US has been successful in 90% of its attempts to subjugate nation-states: you hear so much about places like Vietnam and Syria because these are the rare exceptions. All of South America is subjugated, the USSR broke up, Japan is a client state, Europe is a sidekick, Eastern Europe has switched sides for the most part - other than Russia, China, Iran and to some extent India, the US pretty much has a free hand to do what it wants in any part of the world.

The endgame for the US: all of Afghanistan under a pliant regime in Kabul.
The endgame for Pakistan: Afghanistan in chaos - an easy recruitment ground for Taliban to send to India.
The endgame for India: A stable Afghanistan and Pakistan in four pieces.

The scenarios between the US and India for Afghanistan fully converge, whereas they do not for Pakistan. It therefore is doing everything in its power to hurt Afghanistan: its very existence depends on an unstable, divided Afghanistan. It is manipulating the Pashtuns using religion to do its bidding - it's very hard to put an end to that sort of pervasive, distributed nuisance.

If the US really wants to get serious, it can stop all Porki generals and politicians from travelling to the US, confiscate their property, freeze their accounts, make their children studying in various parts of the US and Europe "disappear" - they can really light a fire in Porki butts. To what extent they'll go remains to be seen - it'll be a function of how much they value Porkistan as a geopolitical asset. My guess is that all this over the past week has just been transactional pressure to get Porkis to give up certain assets, not change its policy. If they really wanted to squeeze Pakistan, the country would be in four pieces.
 

Haldiram

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Sir, interesting post, but I have a different take on the matter.

First, do not listen to Hamid "Donkey flowers" Gul. He is delusional like the rest of the Pakis who think they're the center of the Islamic world, like they have some destiny to fulfill. They're the stray dogs of the Islamic world, to be used and discarded by the true inheritors of Islam, which are, always have been, and always will be the Arabs. He's another mentally defective megalomaniac, full of bravado and low, manipulative cunning - Pakistan has produced tons of those.

I remember a story someone recounted about Shivaji's encounter with Afzal Khan. It goes like this:

At the start of the meeting Afzal Khan graciously embraced Shivaji as per custom. According to the Maratha chronicles, he then suddenly tightened his clasp, gripped Shivaji's neck in his left arm and struck him with a kitar. Shivaji was saved by his armor, recovered and counter-attacked Afzal Khan with wagh nakh, disemboweling him. He then stabbed Khan with his bichawa, and ran out of the tent towards his men.​

Afzal Khan cried out and Sayyid Banda rushed to the scene and attacked Shivaji with his patta, cutting his turban. Shivaji's bodyguard Jiva Mahala intervened, chopping off Sayyid Banda' s right arm in a quick combat before killing him.​

Apparently, as the story goes, Banda was a skilled warrior, and Shivaji knew that his men had little chance against him. Therefore, for months on end before the fateful day, Mahala was told to practice one thing and one thing only - a stroke of the sword that was meant to dismember the opponent. The idea was that if he mastered that ONE thing, it was enough to disable the adversary, and all other battle skills made no difference.

In our post-independence strategic scenario, Pakistan has been a bit like that - its entire and sole strategic purpose has been to harm India in any way possible. All of its military, political and economic weight has been applied towards that one single aim - to disable India, slow it down, wear it down with the war of a thousand cuts. They're under-developed and have frankly given up on all other aspects of the country - economic, technological, social, civilizational, etc. Its entire identity rests on the promise of India's ruin.

India is different - it had a self-proclaimed "Pandit" as its leader, a living, breathing turd called Nehru for whom national interest was the very last thing under consideration. India has been shooting itself in foot against an opponent that is united to undermine it. A rabid, murderous dog against a sleeping tiger is no contest at all.

You think the Americans have not won in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan (let's leave Vietnam aside). But I argue that they have. The entire plan is in fact DESTABILIZATION, that is in fact the victory condition, and not a stable democratic government which makes people happy. You think the US army could not have taken care of a bunch of rag-tag amateurs like ISIS? You think they didn't know ISIS was selling oil to Turkey? The US has bombed the living hell out of far more populated countries - ISIS was ALLOWED to survive, and if not for Russia helping Assad, it would still have survived.

The US has been successful in 90% of its attempts to subjugate nation-states: you hear so much about places like Vietnam and Syria because these are the rare exceptions. All of South America is subjugated, the USSR broke up, Japan is a client state, Europe is a sidekick, Eastern Europe has switched sides for the most part - other than Russia, China, Iran and to some extent India, the US pretty much has a free hand to do what it wants in any part of the world.

The endgame for the US: all of Afghanistan under a pliant regime in Kabul.
The endgame for Pakistan: Afghanistan in chaos - an easy recruitment ground for Taliban to send to India.
The endgame for India: A stable Afghanistan and Pakistan in four pieces.

The scenarios between the US and India for Afghanistan fully converge, whereas they do not for Pakistan. It therefore is doing everything in its power to hurt Afghanistan: its very existence depends on an unstable, divided Afghanistan. It is manipulating the Pashtuns using religion to do its bidding - it's very hard to put an end to that sort of pervasive, distributed nuisance.

If the US really wants to get serious, it can stop all Porki generals and politicians from travelling to the US, confiscate their property, freeze their accounts, make their children studying in various parts of the US and Europe "disappear" - they can really light a fire in Porki butts. To what extent they'll go remains to be seen - it'll be a function of how much they value Porkistan as a geopolitical asset. My guess is that all this over the past week has just been transactional pressure to get Porkis to give up certain assets, not change its policy. If they really wanted to squeeze Pakistan, the country would be in four pieces.
Imperialism happens in two parts.

1] Destruction of existing establishment
2] Colonization

Unless the second part is successful, the first part has no strategic gains for the imperial power. They can destroy but they wont get anything from it. It's not like Syria and Iraq were competing against the US in economy, academics, military power or any other competitive metric.

The US is like this :



It's a Galactus that needs to feed on new societies every decade to keep its mammoth economy going. It sends it's agents to destabilize and destroy first, sure, but unless it starts getting nourishment from the society they crushed, it means nothing.

War is a means to an end.

Russia fought and actually got Crimea. That is a strategic gain. They were facing a demographic decline and declining birth rate. The annexation of Crimea gave them new land and people. They got a new naval base in the Black Sea for 50 more years. That is a gain as well. The US spent money, propped up ISIS and got nothing. Even Turkey got its hands on cheap oil by purchasing it from ISIS. On top of that Turkey refused to allow the US air force from using Turkish bases. Whatever destruction the US has caused has not resulted in a conclusive gains for them. A few Muslims killed? they'll breed their way to their past numbers in a matter of 10 years.

Influence is a zero sum game. It is always won at someone's expense. Russia grabbed the spoils of war in Syria at USA's expense by constructing new military bases there. Pakistan gained influence in Afghanistan at US expense. Iran grabbed the spoils in Iraq after the weakening of the Sunnis, at US expense.

Their global empire has become too costly to sustain, so they're receding into an inward looking 'America First' rhetoric. What it really means is 'back to the barracks.'
 
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nongaddarliberal

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Imperialism happens in two parts.

1] Destruction of existing establishment
2] Colonization

Unless the second part is successful, the first part has no strategic gains for the imperial power. They can destroy but they wont get anything from it. It's not like Syria and Iraq were competing against the US in economy, academics, military power or any other competitive metric.

The US is like this :



It's a Galactus that needs to feed on new societies every decade to keep its mammoth economy going. It sends it's agents to destabilize and destroy first, sure, but unless it starts getting nourishment from the society they crushed, it means nothing.

War is a means to an end.

Russia fought and actually got Crimea. That is a strategic gain. They were facing a demographic decline and declining birth rate. The annexation of Crimea gave them new land and people. They got a new naval base in the Black Sea for 50 more years. That is a gain as well. The US spent money, propped up ISIS and got nothing. Even Turkey got its hands on cheap oil by purchasing it from ISIS. On top of that Turkey refused to allow the US air force from using Turkish bases. Whatever destruction the US has caused has not resulted in a conclusive gains for them. A few Muslims killed? they'll breed their way to their past numbers in a matter of 10 years.

Influence is a zero sum game. It is always won at someone's expense. Russia grabbed the spoils of war in Syria at USA's expense by constructing new military bases there. Pakistan gained influence in Afghanistan at US expense. Iran grabbed the spoils in Iraq after the weakening of the Sunnis, at US expense.

Their global empire has become too costly to sustain, so they're receding into an inward looking 'America First' rhetoric. What it really means is 'back to the barracks.'
As far as the middle East is concerned, I don't think the Americans are pursuing their own national interests at all. It all seems like a proxy war for Israel. The Israelis wanted all these neighbouring countries destabilized and destroyed, to be a buffer zone between them and Iran. With enough destabilization and depopulation of these areas (migrant crisis), greater Israel might be a possibility.
 

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