Transforming India's Concept of Marriage

[Rashna]

And this isn't stereotyping? So presenting an alternate viewpoint is feminism? If i wanted to stereotype you i would have called you a Male Chauvinist but i chose to understand that there is a basic difference in the way men and women think. By putting every opinion from a woman in the feminist category you are just confirming that you have a blind spot which you do not want to look at at all.

If your concept of feminine individualism means she must get lost while u are trying to build a toy drone then you have to find such a woman who has hobbies which take up her time or someone who disappears for many hours to do her own thing. If she has only one hobby "you", then you will obviously feel suffocated in that relationship. This needs someone who needs her own space and hence will respect yours. You can't condition someone to be that way, they just have to be that way.

LOL, that's why I told you, you wouldn't understand. Coz' I never really explained it comprehensively - coz' I didn't want to whine here too much.

But look at what you've done - without even knowing what I am talking about (I never explained it precisely, did I) - you've gone down the stereotyping route, putting your own ideas of "Indian males" and "individualism" and "expecting well educated person to behave like a doll". This is the issue when it comes to Feminist-type thinking (hides under rock).

For your information, I want and expect individualism from a girl. My problem is "lack of individualism". Let me explain this in more detail, give me a few hours.

 

[Bangalorean]

And this isn't stereotyping? So presenting an alternate viewpoint is feminism? If i wanted to stereotype you i would have called you a Male Chauvinist but i chose to understand that there is a basic difference in the way men and women think. By putting every opinion from a woman in the feminist category you are just confirming that you have a blind spot which you do not want to look at at all.

If your concept of feminine individualism means she must get lost while u are trying to build a toy drone then you have to find such a woman who has hobbies which take up her time or someone who disappears for many hours to do her own thing. If she has only one hobby "you", then you will obviously feel suffocated in that relationship. This needs someone who needs her own space and hence will respect yours. You can't condition someone to be that way, they just have to be that way.

Relax and have some patience. By the way, you ought to understand what the icon means.

On a serious note, you did call me a male chauvinist. By assuming (without even hearing what I actually mean) that I am expecting "educated girls to behave like dumb dolls", "Indian male who is not grown up", "ignoring woman's individualism" - you called me a male chauvinist.

Think about it for a moment.

 

[Rashna]

This is again an assumption u made. You must stop bringing up feminism in every such conversation otherwise you will never reach any conclusion about the real problem. This is the type of argument you men can never win, and which is why you just say "oh u wont understand". Believe me I understand everything, the problem is you have to get it, cos the problem has presented itself to you. Anyway i await your calibrated response in a few hours. Good luck.

Relax and have some patience. By the way, you ought to understand what the icon means.

On a serious note, you did call me a male chauvinist. By assuming (without even hearing what I actually mean) that I am expecting "educated girls to behave like dumb dolls", "Indian male who is not grown up", "ignoring woman's individualism" - you called me a male chauvinist.

Think about it for a moment.

 

[Bangalorean]

This is the type of argument you men can never win, and which is why you just say "oh u wont understand".

Why only this, we can't win any argument, its a law of nature.

 

[Rashna]

lol. You run away half way through coz u realize u can't express what it is that you "want".

Why only this, we can't win any argument, its a law of nature.

 

[Ancient Indian]

lol. You run away half way through coz u realize u can't express what it is that you "want".

I never met a girl like you.
Y r u SO Intelly unlike rest of women?

 

[Bangalorean]

So @Rashna

First lets get the "misogyny and patriarchy" crap out of the way.

1. I am really big on career-oriented girls. I have always looked only for ladies who are independent, educated, intelligent, have a good career. I don't even like the stereotypical "gaav ki kadki". If a man looks for a "free maid", the feminist crowd jumps and calls him "patriarchal and misogynist". I am quite the opposite, so by definition, I cannot be accused of that charge.

2. I do not expect dowry, and the last 3 recorded generations in my family have not taken dowry. In my case, as in the case of most people in my community, the preference is for educated working girls who earn their own living. If a man asks for dowry, he is not only derided by the feminists as "patriarchal Hindutva fascist", but is also a criminal, by Indian law. Since I do not ask/expect that, I am not a "patriarchal Hindutva fascist" either.

3. I do not control/restrict movement. I do not make demands like, "stop going there, stop meeting him/her, stop interacting with him, your phone better not be busy for so long". The feminist crowd cannot even accuse me of being a "woman-controlling cruel man".

4. I do not even expect/demand that "my woman should be a virgin". All I ask is that there should be no ghosts from the past which can influence the present, and what happened in the past should be well and truly buried. So, the feminists have to concede that I am as liberal as liberal can be in our societal context.

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With that out of the way, after having established that I am not a "male chauvinist misogynistic patriarchal Hindutva fascist Indian male", lets address your question about the specifics.

1. It is simply a question of expecting to be treated the way I treat you. When I respect your "individualism" to such a great extent, I expect mine to be respected too. I don't want crap questions about why I am going out for lunch with this colleague or that, why I am talking to this person or that, etc. Especially when such questions never arose in the initial days of the relationship. Verily, that saying is true - "familiarity breeds contempt". As the days progress, there is always a desire to question activities and decisions, which never used to happen in the early days.

2. Worse is the ever-increasing expectations. Initially when one expresses inability, there is a polite understanding or a small expression of regret. In subsequent days, its all about "why didn't you come yesterday, why can't you take me here, why can't we go there, why don't you stop all that nonsense you do and give more attention here, etc." For a person who is in a highly demanding stressful full-time job while simultaneously striving hard to set up a business (working two jobs effectively), and with the added stress of driving from one corner of the city to the other, its never easy to "drop all the nonsense, drop everything and do what is asked".

3. I am not even talking about financial stuff here. Considering that I earn 6 times more than her, "going Dutch" isn't fair, that would be like NehruGandhi socialist economics. And neither do I have a problem with not "going Dutch" - the old-fashioned "chivalry" is good for me. I am speaking only about non-financial aspects here.

4. For me, as for everyone, life has many aspects. There is my job, my aspiring entrepreneurship, my circle of friends (who have been with me much longer than any relationship), my colleagues, my folks at home, my books, and of course social media Twitter DFI etc. I consider my relationship as one of the aspects of my existence. A very important aspect no doubt - but expecting that I focus exclusively on that one aspect of my existence to the detriment of all others is really unreasonably, especially since this demand was not present in the early days. Again probably a case of "familiarity breeds contempt".

5. I have had an experience in the past where my partner made it clear that she wanted to sit back and relax after marriage, and "take the advantage of being a woman". But hey, had you been this open about it earlier I wouldn't even have fallen for you! As explained earlier, I don't want such a person. Now will you tell me that I am "curbing the individualism of the girl"? Strange no - if a man asks for a "free maid" he is patriarchal and misogynistic. If he asks for a career woman he is still patriarchal and misogynistic!! Or probably you would have me believe that #MyChoice is exclusively a woman's privilege. I am not allowed to have any choice of my own, and should go with whatever the girl's choice is.

So, stuff like this invariably starts happening sooner or later. And that was my original question @Rashna, from where all this started. I was asking a rhetorical question about why I should get married at all, when I know where it will lead to eventually. But then, I also said that it is essential for the purpose of reproduction, the having-someone-to-go-home-to factor, and for sexual needs. I was wondering aloud whether there could be an innovative solution for societies where every individual can take the benefits of a relationship, yet ensure that their individualism and liberty is not lost. For both genders. For the betterment and happiness of both genders.

Mind you, I never proposed any solution or any model. I just asked a hypothetical question, throwing it open for debate. And look where you took it - "expecting educated girls to behave like dumb dolls", "Indian male who is not grown up", "ignoring woman's individualism", etc. etc. etc.

 

[Rashna]

I don't know why you never met anyone like me, but i have been told the same thing many times before so it might be true.

I never met a girl like you.
Y r u SO Intelly unlike rest of women?

 

[Rashna]

You are a rather confused man i am afraid. However you do have your points which i sympathize with because i can sense that you really believe in this.
Instead of going the girlfriend route i suggest that you get married to a reasonably compatible girl. When a child comes along a woman loses 80% interest in where the man goes or what he does as long as he is taking care of her and the child's basic needs. That is the state which would be ideal for someone like you. Now you might meet a big bumper if you try to marry a career woman with ambitions. Because that woman you "think" is the type of woman who will make you happy but will not in reality.

You are looking for the wrong personality type. You need a smart woman who can let you do what you want while she takes care of the family without intruding on whatever it is that you think you are losing out on. For that you need to change your goal post. Since you already have your intellectual needs taken care of by your friends and social circle you can leave that out from your partner expectations.

Having too many expectations from a woman is the end of the road for the relationship before it even begins. Go easy on the expecations, be practical and you will be reasonably happy with your partner. Get over the girl friend phase in a nut shell. Your wife will not expect you to drive anywhere to meet her because she will be in your house. Matter resolved.:thumb:

The other choice for you is to not marry, you might end up like RaGa. But that would be your choice without any hashtag.

So @Rashna

First lets get the "misogyny and patriarchy" crap out of the way.

1. I am really big on career-oriented girls. I have always looked only for ladies who are independent, educated, intelligent, have a good career. I don't even like the stereotypical "gaav ki kadki". If a man looks for a "free maid", the feminist crowd jumps and calls him "patriarchal and misogynist". I am quite the opposite, so by definition, I cannot be accused of that charge.

2. I do not expect dowry, and the last 3 recorded generations in my family have not taken dowry. In my case, as in the case of most people in my community, the preference is for educated working girls who earn their own living. If a man asks for dowry, he is not only derided by the feminists as "patriarchal Hindutva fascist", but is also a criminal, by Indian law. Since I do not ask/expect that, I am not a "patriarchal Hindutva fascist" either.

3. I do not control/restrict movement. I do not make demands like, "stop going there, stop meeting him/her, stop interacting with him, your phone better not be busy for so long". The feminist crowd cannot even accuse me of being a "woman-controlling cruel man".

4. I do not even expect/demand that "my woman should be a virgin". All I ask is that there should be no ghosts from the past which can influence the present, and what happened in the past should be well and truly buried. So, the feminists have to concede that I am as liberal as liberal can be in our societal context.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With that out of the way, after having established that I am not a "male chauvinist misogynistic patriarchal Hindutva fascist Indian male", lets address your question about the specifics.

1. It is simply a question of expecting to be treated the way I treat you. When I respect your "individualism" to such a great extent, I expect mine to be respected too. I don't want crap questions about why I am going out for lunch with this colleague or that, why I am talking to this person or that, etc. Especially when such questions never arose in the initial days of the relationship. Verily, that saying is true - "familiarity breeds contempt". As the days progress, there is always a desire to question activities and decisions, which never used to happen in the early days.

2. Worse is the ever-increasing expectations. Initially when one expresses inability, there is a polite understanding or a small expression of regret. In subsequent days, its all about "why didn't you come yesterday, why can't you take me here, why can't we go there, why don't you stop all that nonsense you do and give more attention here, etc." For a person who is in a highly demanding stressful full-time job while simultaneously striving hard to set up a business (working two jobs effectively), and with the added stress of driving from one corner of the city to the other, its never easy to "drop all the nonsense, drop everything and do what is asked".

3. I am not even talking about financial stuff here. Considering that I earn 6 times more than her, "going Dutch" isn't fair, that would be like NehruGandhi socialist economics. And neither do I have a problem with not "going Dutch" - the old-fashioned "chivalry" is good for me. I am speaking only about non-financial aspects here.

4. For me, as for everyone, life has many aspects. There is my job, my aspiring entrepreneurship, my circle of friends (who have been with me much longer than any relationship), my colleagues, my folks at home, my books, and of course social media Twitter DFI etc. I consider my relationship as one of the aspects of my existence. A very important aspect no doubt - but expecting that I focus exclusively on that one aspect of my existence to the detriment of all others is really unreasonably, especially since this demand was not present in the early days. Again probably a case of "familiarity breeds contempt".

5. I have had an experience in the past where my partner made it clear that she wanted to sit back and relax after marriage, and "take the advantage of being a woman". But hey, had you been this open about it earlier I wouldn't even have fallen for you! As explained earlier, I don't want such a person. Now will you tell me that I am "curbing the individualism of the girl"? Strange no - if a man asks for a "free maid" he is patriarchal and misogynistic. If he asks for a career woman he is still patriarchal and misogynistic!! Or probably you would have me believe that #MyChoice is exclusively a woman's privilege. I am not allowed to have any choice of my own, and should go with whatever the girl's choice is.

So, stuff like this invariably starts happening sooner or later. And that was my original question @Rashna, from where all this started. I was asking a rhetorical question about why I should get married at all, when I know where it will lead to eventually. But then, I also said that it is essential for the purpose of reproduction, the having-someone-to-go-home-to factor, and for sexual needs. I was wondering aloud whether there could be an innovative solution for societies where every individual can take the benefits of a relationship, yet ensure that their individualism and liberty is not lost. For both genders. For the betterment and happiness of both genders.

Mind you, I never proposed any solution or any model. I just asked a hypothetical question, throwing it open for debate. And look where you took it - "expecting educated girls to behave like dumb dolls", "Indian male who is not grown up", "ignoring woman's individualism", etc. etc. etc.

 

[Jatt.Hindustan]

while she takes care of the family

exactly.

She and my mom can feed them and teach them as my mom was teacher.

My dad can teach them some types of weaponry and self defense

I can take care of lot of stuff too many details.

What's so complicated, just move to somalia where you can make all your #choices and be #open-minded too

Marry a somali girl and instead of Punjab to Bengal or Kerala how you bollywood types like to promote, do

Mangalore to Mogadishu. (Y)

 

[Bangalorean]

@Rashna, so your advise is that I should become "patriarchal" and look around for a woman who is ready to stay at home and take care of the kids, without career ambitions! OMG, are you some patriarchal misogynistic Hindutva-vaadi dirty Sanghi sadhvi to give such advise to a Hindu male?

Kidding, was a nice conversation overall. :thumb:

 

[Rashna]

I have told you what is best for you. It should be taken as a neutral advice and not from a female or male perspective per se. You see we are individuals and we think we want something that society dictates and we take up some of the oddities but forget that some things are universal. If you want to become a father you have to be patriarchal to some extent. If you are not matured to start a family, then you have the modern day cribbing excuse, the girl is not good enough for you. lolz. Guy are u good enuf for some gal? Think of it that way and u will realize, being practical solves most problems. Hope this gets you over your "fears".

@Rashna, so your advise is that I should become "patriarchal" and look around for a woman who is ready to stay at home and take care of the kids, without career ambitions! OMG, are you some patriarchal misogynistic Hindutva-vaadi dirty Sanghi sadhvi to give such advise to a Hindu male?
:thumb:
Kidding, was a nice conversation overall. :thumb:

 

[Jatt.Hindustan]

@Rashna, so your advise is that I should become "patriarchal" and look around for a woman who is ready to stay at home and take care of the kids, without career ambitions! OMG, are you some patriarchal misogynistic Hindutva-vaadi dirty Sanghi sadhvi to give such advise to a Hindu male?

Kidding, was a nice conversation overall. :thumb:

You remind me of this african I sww on net who had huge inferiority complex.

Greatest nation in history usa lool js

Some naked gori drinking with 2 nigrs isn't greatness. Sita is

Kyle w.e american sniper shooting kids from rooftop isn't greatness

CHAMKAUR SAHIB DI KACHI GARHI IS

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ।।

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

I have told you what is best for you. It should be taken as a neutral advice and not from a female or male perspective per se. You see we are individuals and we think we want something that society dictates and we take up some of the oddities but forget that some things are universal. If you want to become a father you have to be patriarchal to some extent. If you are not matured to start a family, then you have the modern day cribbing excuse, the girl is not good enough for you. lolz. Guy are u good enuf for some gal? Think of it that way and u will realize, being practical solves most problems. Hope this gets you over your "fears".

You advice will get half of the guys on this forum married very soon!!
@Bangalorean- another advice. Just learn to ignore or feign forgetfulness!!

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

I have told you what is best for you. It should be taken as a neutral advice and not from a female or male perspective per se. You see we are individuals and we think we want something that society dictates and we take up some of the oddities but forget that some things are universal. If you want to become a father you have to be patriarchal to some extent. If you are not matured to start a family, then you have the modern day cribbing excuse, the girl is not good enough for you. lolz. Guy are u good enuf for some gal? Think of it that way and u will realize, being practical solves most problems. Hope this gets you over your "fears".

Your advice will get half of the guys on this forum married very soon!!

@Bangalorean- another advice. Just learn to ignore or feign forgetfulness!!

 

[Mad Indian]

I am 26 and gonna marry soon and if someone will give me guarantee if i do love marriage i will be happy ever after then i will do it otherwise west can shut up and i am gonna follow our tradition.

Love is not the only pillar you need in marriage but understanding/respect/loyalty/similarities etc lots of things who matter more than love. It's just my views and i don't force them on anyone.

Agree with you 100%. And btw, who said arranged marriages lack love? Afaik, love marriages have a poorer track record than arranged ones

 

[Mad Indian]

I have told you what is best for you. It should be taken as a neutral advice and not from a female or male perspective per se. You see we are individuals and we think we want something that society dictates and we take up some of the oddities but forget that some things are universal. If you want to become a father you have to be patriarchal to some extent. If you are not matured to start a family, then you have the modern day cribbing excuse, the girl is not good enough for you. lolz. Guy are u good enuf for some gal? Think of it that way and u will realize, being practical solves most problems. Hope this gets you over your "fears".

Thats why patriachy(traditionalism) and Feminism are two sides of the same coin.

 

[Samar Rathi]

Agree with you 100%. And btw, who said arranged marriages lack love? Afaik, love marriages have a poorer track record than arranged ones

I agree ,love build on time rest longer than instantaneously one look love.

 

[Rashna]

Nonsense. Patriarchy is traditional and Feminism is modern and add Menism to that list too.

Thats why patriachy(traditionalism) and Feminism are two sides of the same coin.

 

[Mad Indian]

Nonsense. Patriarchy is traditional and Feminism is modern and add Menism to that list too.

Both Traditionalism and Feminism are about putting women on a pedestel and worshipping their wombs. Both are toxic to men as both view men as disposable utility which can be used and discarded to protect and provide for women. Both are two sides of the same coin called gynocentrism and both can shove it up for all I care