Top guns and flop guns: Indian Air Force 'beats RAF 12-0 in training exercise'

blueblood

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Sadly DFI is a fan boy site, it's like debating with teenagers in a game of top trumps

As I said, believe what you want but I bet the MoD aren't investigating the claims which they should do if it was a 12-0 defeat

Open your eyes and seek the truth
Offcourse DFI is a fan boy site. I am not disputing that but no one is butthurt here.

When we say India came out out as a winner in the dogfighting exercises we are not talking about the child molestation ring that surfaced in UK, are we?

What did the first three posts of your own source tell you?

You keep waiting for the official inquiry.
 

wegweg

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Lets see who you believe, the IAF and RAF or an journalist who wasn't there.
 

RAM

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How the Sukhois blanked the Typhoons 12-0 in British skies

The Sukhoi Flanker has yet again emerged as the unchallenged wolf of the skies. During the 10-day Indradhanush exercise held in July in Lincolnshire, UK, Indian Air Force pilots flying the Su-30MKI humiliated the top aces of the RAF, blanking their latest Eurofighter Typhoon jets 12-0.

The IAF Sukhois were reportedly able to defeat the Typhoons not only in one-on-one combat, but also in situations where one IAF pilot was pitted against two Typhoons. Besides clobbering the RAF during within visual range (WVR) dogfights, the Sukhois also held an edge over the British jets in beyond visual range (BVR) combat though not in as dominating a manner.

Aviation International News learns from informed sources with knowledge of the exercise that “in close combat, the thrust vector control on the heavier Flankers more than compensated for the greater thrust-to-weight ratio of the Typhoon”.


Typhoon hit by Sukhoi storm ::

Experienced air combat analyst Vishnu Som explains: “The first week of the exercises pitted the Su-30 in a series of aerial dogfight scenarios. First, there were 1 v 1 encounters, where a single jet of each type engaged each other in WVR combat, firing simulated missiles to a range of two miles. The exercises progressed to 2 v 2 engagements with two Eurofighters taking on two Su-30s and 2 v 1 exercises where two Sukhois took on a single Typhoon and vice versa. Notably, in the exercise where a lone Su-30 was engaged by two Typhoons, the IAF jet emerged the victor ‘shooting’ down both ‘enemy’ jets.”

The Flanker’s legendary super-maneuverability is a key reason why it emerged out of the knife fight unscathed. “In all dog fighting exercises, IAF Sukhois were able to turn sharply into the extremely agile Typhoons using their thrust-vectored engines to keep the RAF jets locked in their sights,” Som writes.

Also, the Su-30’s advanced Infrared Search and Track System (IRST), a passive sensor, which cannot be tracked, proved to be a distinct advantage for the IAF’s pilots in close-combat maneuvering. “Both the IAF and RAF used the full capabilities of their onboard radars, albeit in training mode, which meant actual radar frequencies used in combat conditions were never exposed for confidentiality reasons. However, the detection ranges of the radars of both aircraft were not curtailed per se. This was air combat as close to the real thing as possible.”

Interestingly, while the UK’s Independent says the British deployed the “cream of the RAF”, Som says “the IAF did not deploy any senior pilots serving with its elite Tactics and Air Combat Development Establishment (TACDE)”.


British: Still colonial?

Dismissing the Indian claims as “comical”, an RAF source told the Independent that they were clearly designed for the “domestic audience”. The source added: “There must have been some clouded recollection on the flights back to India, as the headlines of the Indian press bear no relation to the results of the tactical scenarios completed on the exercise in any shape or form.”

The 12-0 score must have stung real bad considering the British are yet to jettison their colonial attitudes towards former subjects, who are now wealthier and stronger, possessing a much larger military.

Now compare the RAF’s childish reaction to the USAF’s more balanced approach in the aftermath of their humiliation by the IAF in the Cope India air combat exercises held in 2004 and 2005.

Cope India 04 made headlines worldwide when Indian pilots flying upgraded – but 30 year old – MiG-21s and the comparatively less advanced Su-30MKs defeated the USAF’s F-15 Eagles 9-1. Here’s what USAF Colonel Greg Newbech said after the exercise: “What we’ve seen in the last two weeks is the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with the best air force in the world. I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won’t be going home.”

The following year, at Cope India 2005, the USAF deployed several F-16s. The results of the drills were much similar to those of the previous year, with Indian pilots able to win most of the engagements in their latest Su-30MKIs.

Again, in 2008 at Exercise Red Flag held at Mountain Home AFB, known for its complex and realistic war gaming, not a single Su-30MKI fighter was ‘shot down’ in close air combat missions. In 10-odd one-on-one engagements against USAF jets such as the F-15 and F-16, none of the Sukhois were even close to being shot down.

You get the picture. The IAF Sukhois have consistently beaten western aircraft in a range of environments – Gwalior, California and now Britain.


Self-imposed handicaps ::

IAF Sukhois usually engage in simulated combat – particularly with western air forces – with their NIIP Bars radar in training mode. In this mode the radar operates with reduced performance and features. Russian and Indian officials have legitimate concerns about revealing too many details of this sophisticated sensor. At Red Flag 2008 a British spy plane had attempted to snoop on the Sukhoi’s radar but it had to return empty handed.

It is because of such spying – as well as to protect their data and tactics from air forces that it could one day possibly fly offensive missions against – that the IAF doesn’t permit its pilots to use the full spectrum of the Su-30’s capabilities.

The IAF also avoids BVR simulations for the same reason. It doesn’t allow the capabilities of its Russian made R-77 and R-73 air-to-air missiles to be simulated in exercises.


Lessons from Indradhanush 2007 ::

Indradhanush 2007, held at Waddington, UK, featured a similar combat scenario, with IAF Flankers versus the RAF Typhoon, with a support cast of Tornados and the Harriers. Here’s what India’s Ministry of Defence had to say about the outcome:

“The operational part of Exercise Indradhanush-2007 began with a series of 1 vs 1 air combat sorties… The RAF pilots were candid in their admission of the Su-30 MKI’s observed superior maneuvering in the air, just as they had studied, prepared and anticipated. The IAF pilots on their part were also visibly impressed by the Typhoon’s agility in the air.

“While it does not imply to say that the 1 vs 1 air combat sorties were meant for backslapping each other, it may be understood that in today’s aerial combat scenarios of BVR capabilities of air platforms, it is highly unlikely that any of the modern-day fighters will ever get into a situation that warrants extreme close air combat, as in the situation simulated in the 1 vs 1 sorties. With a ‘kill’ criterion of front-gun ranges being mostly under 1000 meters and a visual tracking envelope behind the target for only up to a 60-degree cone mostly for most fighter aircraft of the world, the unlikely scenario gets more exemplified.

“But the irony also lies in the fact that while there is a number of counter and counter-counter measures to make the modern missiles with claims of inescapable parameters redundant by using ‘chaff’ and other active/passive measures, a ‘gun kill’ is invariably a most certain kill. The pilots invariably begin honing their tracking and combat skills under such close combat situations.”

The MoD’s purely technical – and unbiased – report blows away the British claim that they fought with one hand tied behind their back, that is, the Typhoons were not allowed to use their BVR capabilities. For, the Sukhois – which have vastly superior BVR missiles – also flew under severe and similar handicaps.

Defense Industry Daily (DID) agrees: “Even in the modern missile age, most air-to-air kills have remained within visual range.”


Bigger picture ::

According to DID, “Amidst the excitement of the aerial battles, the successful deployment of India’s aircraft using IAF aerial refuelling and logistics personnel might go unnoticed. From India’s point of view, however, these developments may be even more important than the results of the fighter match-ups in the air.”

The four Sukhoi air dominance fighters accompanied by an Ilyushin IL-78 aerial refueller, C-17 transporter and C-130 special operations aircraft flew from India to Saudi Arabia on to Athens before landing in Britain. The hopscotch itinerary – of nearly 10,000 km – served to show off India’s strategic reach capability, especially to the Saudis, who are now cooperating with India in combating Islamic terror, which is the Kingdom’s second largest export item after oil.


Bottom line ::

Indradhanush 2015 offered RAF pilots a rare chance to go up against some of the latest Russian-designed fighter jets. The British should count their blessings that the Indians allowed them joyrides in their Sukhois.

The takeaway for the British is that their newest jet fighter – which was built to take on the Flankers – is simply no match for the Russian jet. In fact, with the induction of the more advanced Su-35 Super Flanker in the Russian Air Force – and soon the Chinese air force – the Typhoon’s window of vulnerability will only widen.

As for the IAF, it should make sure all ‘kills’ by its pilots are verified and placed in the correct context. Indian pilots are historically not known to make tall claims. In the aftermath of previous wars, the Indian defence establishment has meticulously pieced together vast quantities of data from all sides in order to verify or debunk kills. If the claims are found to be inflated then the public needs to know too.

For, there’s no surer way to lose the next war than to live in delusion about your own strength.
 

Scalieback

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Offcourse DFI is a fan boy site. I am not disputing that but no one is butthurt here.
Oh dear. For once I thought I'd found an adult to debate with. Oh well ......

When we say India came out out as a winner in the dogfighting exercises we are not talking about the child molestation ring that surfaced in UK, are we?
More anti Brit drivel

What did the first three posts of your own source tell you?
What did the poster who was on the exercise (unlike you) say?

You keep waiting for the official inquiry.
it won't happen. Indian egos are massaged.

I'm not disputing IAF pilots are God. I'm not disputing Su 30's are good. I'm a realist and able to understand some peoples egos need massaging whilst others remain quietly confident
 

blueblood

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@Scalieback , calling someone a teenager instead of talking logic is a sign of immaturity that I wasn't expecting from you. I was merely pointing out the garbage which infests the "grown up" and "service" forum like ARRSE. There is a pretty hefty Anti-Brit drive here but none of that was in this thread so your victim card is not just invalid but is very amusing to say the least. Fallacy of British argument.

  • Sukhoi Su-30MKI cannot outturn Typhoons in WVR despite its TVC. Please remove the wool over your eyes to note that WVR is underlined, twice.
  • Indian AF which tested Typhoon thoroughly is unfamiliar with Typhoon's capabilities.
  • RAF pilots are inherently superior to Indian pilots because let's face it, India is a third world country with similar standards of training.
Some pretty superb arguments there. But here are some fun facts;

  • MKI can indeed outturn Typhoons and shoot it down with HMD and off-boresight R-73 combination. IAF has been using such combination since the 1980s.
  • I doubt that IAF didn't pitch it against Typhoon during one of the most if not the most lengthy trials for aircraft procurement in the world.
  • Indian pilots are knocking as many hours in training as RAF, if not more.
In addition to that, Vishnu Som has cleared the air that MKI is not superior to Typhoon in BVR with its AESA-Meteor combination but vice-versa.

So you can continue to play victim card and trash talk but if you want some serious discussion then do so on the basis of aforementioned points or present some of your own.

He said, she said will get you no where.
 
Last edited:

bose

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It must be very hard for Brits to take the beating that too from a third world country like India... a land of snake charmers... !!

anyway IAF must continue to have more such excercises with French, Americans and British and continue to up scale it own capabilities...

Now to all Brits... The world is moving !! accept it !!
 

Scalieback

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It must be very hard for Brits to take the beating that too from a third world country like India... a land of snake charmers... !!

anyway IAF must continue to have more such excercises with French, Americans and British and continue to up scale it own capabilities...

Now to all Brits... The world is moving !! accept it !!
Are you serious? I've said IAF pilots are good. The Su30 is good. Does it not make you think twice (even after the figures of dogfights don't add up) that it was a 12-0 drubbing?

If the shoe was on the other foot ie that the Brits win 12-0 I certainly would be questioning it. By that kind of ratio the Su30 would be little better than a Mig17 which it clearly isn't and not once did they have a lucky shot. Get real
 

salute

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Sadly DFI is still full of juveniles whose only experience of the military is on their XBox (other gaming stations may apply)
sadly brits cannot get over colonial era,
brits still thinks they rule the world. :laugh:
 

Scalieback

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@Scalieback , calling someone a teenager instead of talking logic is a sign of immaturity that I wasn't expecting from you. I was merely pointing out the garbage which infests the "grown up" and "service" forum like ARRSE. There is a pretty hefty Anti-Brit drive here but none of that was in this thread so your victim card is not just invalid but is very amusing to say the least. Fallacy of British argument.
When you debate like an adult as her, you'll be treated like one. Keep your anti Brit drivel in the relevant forum

I'm no victim, you were the first to spout garbage

  • Sukhoi Su-30MKI cannot outturn Typhoons in WVR despite its TVC. Please remove the wool over your eyes to note that WVR is underlined, twice.
  • Indian AF which tested Typhoon thoroughly is unfamiliar with Typhoon's capabilities.
  • RAF pilots are inherently superior to Indian pilots because let's face it, India is a third world country with similar standards of training.
Some pretty superb arguments there. But here are some fun facts;

  • MKI can indeed outturn Typhoons and shoot it down with HMD and off-boresight R-73 combination. IAF has been using such combination since the 1980s.
  • I doubt that IAF didn't pitch it against Typhoon during one of the most if not the most lengthy trials for aircraft procurement in the world.
  • Indian pilots are knocking as many hours in training as RAF, if not more.
Again, go on there and make your points. All you're doing on here is affirming the fan boy stats. Once again, I have no doubt the IAF pilots are good as is the Su30. But 12-0? Really? It doesn't make you think twice?

In addition to that, Vishnu Som has cleared the air that MKI is not superior to Typhoon in BVR with its AESA-Meteor combination but vice-versa.
Saw that

So you can continue to play victim card and trash talk but if you want some serious discussion then do so on the basis of aforementioned points or present some of your own.
As you were the first to spout anti Brit drivel I think you should take a long hard look in the mirror frankly

He said, she said will get you no where.
exactly
 

sachin458377

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Su-30MKI vs Eurofighter Typhoon - The Truth is Nuanced, but the Brits Won't Like it Anyway!


IAF Su-30MKI and RAF Typhoon during Indradhanush-4


Did the Su-30MKI outmaneuver the Eurofighter Typhoon 12-0 within visual range (WVR) combat during Indradhanush 4, as stated by Group Captain Ashu Srivastav, who led the IAF Indradhanush-4 detachment to RAF Coningsby, to NDTV?

Certainly, yes! IAF pilots are not inclined to make false claims, or indulge in wanton exaggerate.

Does that mean the Su-30MKI is superior to the Typhoon in aerial combat? Certainly, not!

Aerial combat is replete with factors - ponderable and imponderable - that change its outcome. It does not fit a True or False scenario. The response to a question such as which aircraft is better in combat has got to be nuanced.

Ashu Srivastav's inputs to NDTV were precise and very professional. He said that the IAF Su-30MKI aircrew outperformed RAF Typhoon pilots in 1 vs 1 and 2 vs 1 WVR combat using close combat missiles (CCM) within a range of two miles.

The CCM restriction implied that the engagements involved low energy combat, a flight envelope in which the Su-30MKI excels because of thrust vectoring.

An unnamed RAF source quoted by The Independent has countered Ashu Srivastav's statement saying, "There must have been some clouded recollection on the flights back to India. The headlines of the Indian press bear no relation to the results of the tactical scenarios completed on the exercise in any shape or form."

The response lacks precision and is characteristic of British vagueness and verbosity that gets accentuated in the face of embarrassing truths.

The Independent source went on to say, "The Su-30MKI is one of the aircraft that the Typhoon was designed to tackle and defeat, and no doubt in the right hands would present a potent challenge. Today [though] the aim would be to engage aircraft like the Su-30MKI from long-range before the two could come together in a dogfight."

The second statement by the RAF source is on the mark, just as Ashu Srivastav's 12-0 victory claim is on the mark.

A quick comparison of the Su-30MKI and Eurofighter Typhoon combat capabilities should put the apparently contradictory claims in the correct perspective.


IAF Su-30MKI with its IRST prominently visible during Indradhansuh-4

Su-30MKI vs Eurofighter Typhoon

WVR Combat

Su-30MKI excels in WVR low energy combat because of thrust vectoring. The Typhoon outperforms the Su-30MKI in high energy WVR combat because of its better thrust to weight ratio and high speed turn performance.

BVR Combat

The Typhoon is superior in Beyond Vision Range (BVR) combat because of the following reasons:


  1. Its Captor M radar emissions are more difficult to detect, track and spoof than those of the Su-30MKIs BARS radar.
  2. Its Attack and Identification System (AIS) provides better situational awareness and threat handling.
  3. It has a significantly smaller radar signature than the Su-30MKI.


Typhoon's AIS includes sensor fusion wherein data from multiple sensors - the fighter's Captor radar, PIRATE Infrared Search and Track System (IRST) and EW suite, as well as off-board radars (AWACS, ASTOR, JSTARS, even other Typhoons) over datalink - is displayed on a single MFD, reducing pilot workload and confusion. AIS automatically exercises Captor radar emissions control (EMCON) based on the composite threat scenario.

The Su-30MKI doesn't feature AIS and sensor fusion, but has a weapon system operators to monitor and act upon inputs from on and off board sensors. A man in the loop can add value, or confusion depending on the training and emotional state, as well as the complexity of the threat scenario.

Because of its significantly larger size, the Su-30MKI has a bigger radar signature. The larger cross-sectional area of the fuselage in front of the cockpit allows the Su-30MKI to carry a more powerful radar, but the high radiated energy of the radar allows it to be passively detected and identified at longer ranges giving the adversary an advantage.


RAF's Eurofighter Typhoon with its IRST during Indradhanush4

Hypothetical Combat Tactics

In view of the above, here is how a Typhoon pilot would engage an adversary Su-30MKI in war.

The Typhoon pilot would attempt to leverage to the hilt his aircraft's superior BVR combat capability. He would keep his CAPTOR radar on automatic EMCON and focus on passively tracking a Su-30MKI using its BARS radar emission, or in case the Su-30MKIs BARS was switched off, an offboard radar. A Typhoon could track a Su-30MKI with a radiating radar from 300-km. A Su-30MKI with its radar switched off could be tracked from around 180-km using AWACS data link.

When in range, the Typhoon would engage the Su-30MKI with BVR missiles. Adversary Su-30MKI would remain oblivious to the presence of the Typhoon till he sees the missile coming at him!

In case initial BVR missile engagements are thwarted by Su-30MKI jamming or decoys, the Typhoon would try and acquire the adversary Su-30MKI on his PIRATE IRST and use his BVR missiles. Close to a merge, the Typhoon would disengage and getaway, choosing to fight another day.

When faced with adversary Typhoons, a Su-30MKI pilot would keep his BARS switched off and rely almost exclusively on an off-board radar (AWACS or another radiating Su-30MKI) to passively track the Typhoon and engage it with its BVR missiles. If BVR missiles fail to score, he would keep closing in to a range where his IRST picks up the Typhoon, and then take more shots at the Typhoon.

The Typhoon's ability to automatically fuse inputs from multiple sensors would facilitate more accurate tracking of the target and guidance of the BVR missile, giving the Typhoon a definite advantage over the Su-30MKI during BVR combat.

Because of the Su-30MKI's bigger radar signature, an AWACS supporting the Typhoon would pick up the Su-30MKI before the AWACS supporting the Su-30MKI picked up the Typhoon. This would give the Typhoon more advantage.

Without AWACS on both sides, IRST detection ranges will prove critical to the outcome of the combat.

With AWACS, the game will be one sided in favor of the Typhoon till IRST pickups. In case of a merge and WVR combat, the game will rapidly become one sided in favor of Su-30MKI.

What we have looked at is a 1 vs 1 scenario. In real life air-combat tends to be a melee. If the BVR engagements are ineffective due to EW and other countermeasures, there will be accidental merges galore, whether the Typhoon pilots like it or not!

The question really is - How effective would be BVR engagements between two well trained adversaries in the prevailing scenario?

Additional Observations on Indradhanush 4

The Su-30MKI's IRST reportedly proved to be a distinct advantage for IAF aircrew during WVR combat during Indradhanush-4.

It appears that IAF aircrew used their IRSTs more than their eyeballs to track their adversary while maneuvering in WVR combat, which helped them avoid the pitfall of bleeding energy levels excessively, as they reportedly did during the last Red Flag exercise.

A training exercise such as Indradhanush is aimed at improving pilot skills. It would involve some leveling of the playing field so as to keep the focus on skill development. For example, it could be assumed that both the sides have close combat missiles with similar off bore-sight capability. Missile capabilities - CCM or BVR - differ. In a war the outcome of an aerial combat would depend a lot on weapon systems employed, in addition to aircraft capability and pilot skills.

To summarize

Su-30MKI excels in WVR low energy combat, Typhoon in standoff & WVR high energy combat.
The equation could be significantly altered by EW surprises, giving an adversary temporary advantage.

AWACS backed IAF Su-30MKIs adhering to strict EMCON could negate some Typhoon BVR combat advantages, but overall the Typhoon is a better BVR combat aircraft.

The IAF Su-30MKI have regained a lot of the respect that it lost in Indradhanush 3 and the last Red Flag exercise in the US. It appears that the IAF has put in a lot of thought and training to regain confidence in the Su-30MKI.


Thum! Kaun Aata Hai?: Su-30MKI vs Eurofighter Typhoon - The Truth is Nuanced, but the Brits Won't Like it Anyway!
 

bose

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Are you serious? I've said IAF pilots are good. The Su30 is good. Does it not make you think twice (even after the figures of dogfights don't add up) that it was a 12-0 drubbing?

If the shoe was on the other foot ie that the Brits win 12-0 I certainly would be questioning it. By that kind of ratio the Su30 would be little better than a Mig17 which it clearly isn't and not once did they have a lucky shot. Get real

Yes, I am serious !!

About the IAF pilots... Although my cousin is in IAF and heard about its capabilities and exercises they have... I will reserve my comments here and rather support them to reach higher and higher goals and continue their good work...

SU30 is not good but ... it is dam very good !! one hardly will escape if it comes too close to SU30 in WVR... I would like to see how good SU30 is in BVR ... I am sure with super maneuverability of SU30 it will be very interesting...

I am not concerned about 12 - 0 or 12 - 12 or 0 - 12 or whatever ...what is important IAF must be one of the finest in the world...

If you can check out the Indian pilots Jumbo Majumbar & Indra Lal Roy during British Indian time serving RAF... there were not many as Indian those days were treated as un fairly... still who ever been able to pull it through were as good as anyone then...
 

Compersion

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Sorry I need to say this:

Is this linked to the army exercise that happened in UK where there was a accident ... Why are we not talking about those lives lost in a training excerise in uk and how and why.

UK and india can learn and develop from one another and work together. It works both ways. Indian armed forces including air force can bring improvements to others.

News reports and developments between uk and india thereafter need to be seen in positive light. Training is a good learning. A lot like how Indian army lost lives in a training exercise. What a perspective !! Uk and india ... Focus.

We are not going to buy tyhpoons apparently ... But su30mki not used by our enemies ...

Uk and india relationship is good.
 

Scalieback

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Yes, I am serious !!

About the IAF pilots... Although my cousin is in IAF and heard about its capabilities and excecises they have... I will reseve my comments here and rather support them to reach higher and higher goals and continue their good work...

SU30 is not good but ... it is damm very good !! one hardly will escape if it comes too close to SU30 in WVR... I would like to see how good SU30 is in BVR ... I am sure with super manuveability of SU30 it will be very interesting...

I am not concerned about 12 - 0 or 12 - 12 or 0 - 12 or whatever ...what is important IAF must be one of the finest in the world...
Nobodies doubting how good the IAF pilots are or how good the Su30 is. At least you have the decency to admit the figures may be massaged somewhat
If you can check out the Indian pilots Jumbo Majumbar & Indra Lal Roy during british Indian time serving RAF... there were not many as Indian those days were treated as un farely... still who ever been able to pull it through were as good as anyone then...
please keep anti Brit drivel in the correct forum.

Those pilots were good and deserve the credit
 

Scalieback

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Sorry I need to say this:

Is this linked to the army exercise that happened in UK where there was a accident ... Why are we not talking about those lives lost in a training excerise in uk and how and why.
The 'exercise' you are referring to was SAS(R) selection from over a year ago. This is an Indian and UK Ex in Leics and Norfolk

UK and india can learn and develop from one another and work together. It works both ways. Indian armed forces including air force can bring improvements to others.
Agreed

News reports and developments between uk and india thereafter need to be seen in positive light. Training is a good learning. A lot like how Indian army lost lives in a training exercise. What a perspective !! Uk and india ... Focus.
Not sure what you are trying to say there. No lives lost in UK/Induan Ex

We are not going to buy tyhpoons apparently ... But su30mki not used by our enemies ...
Thought China and Pakistan were your enemies?

Uk and india relationship is good.
I agree and long may it remain so
 

bose

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Nobodies doubting how good the IAF pilots are or how good the Su30 is. At least you have the decency to admit the figures may be massaged somewhat
Quality and Quality that only matters rather than figures... I am not at all bothered about the figures... nor I am saying they are massaged... or whatever...

please keep anti Brit drivel in the correct forum.
ok..

I have stayed in Manchester UK for sometime... I know what triggers such anti Brits comments or feelings... may be a point of argument in some other thread...

Those pilots were good and deserve the credit
Thank You !!
 

bennedose

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Hmmm if a claim that the other side was trounced is evidence of the presence of Fanboys then the former RAF Air Marshal Dalton who said of the IAF after the previous series of exercises "Well, the lost" was also a fanboy. A fanboy RAF chief - fancy that.

More power to fanboys. It always feels good to say that the other side was trounced. Part of the fun is getting others irritated and defensive and coming up with idiotic excuses - which incidentally the IAF did not do last time. But this time when the EF was ass whupped 12-0 I am seeing one heck of a lot of whimpering and complaining.

Cheers to that. I want some more.
 

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