Top guns and flop guns: Indian Air Force 'beats RAF 12-0 in training exercise'

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by bose, Aug 6, 2015.

  1. bose

    bose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2010
    Messages:
    3,956
    Likes Received:
    2,637
    Location:
    Kolkata, India.
    In some of the most intense international air combat exercises ever featuring the Indian Air Force, IAF pilots flying Sukhoi 30 MKI fighters had a resounding 12-0 scoreline in their favour against Royal Air Force Typhoon jets in Within Visual Range (WVR) dogfighting operations.

    In subsequent Large Force Exercises (LFE) which featured combined Typhoon and Su-30 formations, the IAF jets were somewhat less successful but consistently held an edge over the Typhoon.

    In an exclusive interview, Group Captain Ashu Srivastav, the Contingent Commander in the exercises, told NDTV that the performance of his pilots was "exceptional." According to Group Captain Srivastav, who happens to be the IAF's most experienced Su-30 pilot, his pilots showed "flexibility and adaptability to a new environment and operating conditions and on this benchmark, I would rate them exceptional."

    [​IMG]©

    Provided by NDTV 24x7
    A Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter jet of the Indian Air Force

    The 10 day exercises which commenced on July 21 was the fourth edition of the Indo-UK Bilateral exercise called Indradhanush. IAF aircraft and personnel were based out of three Royal Air Force bases: four IAF Su-30 fighters operated out of RAF Coningsby, C-17 and C-130J Hercules transports were positioned at Brize Norton and Garud Commandos of the IAF operated alongside British forces at RAF Honington. The IAF also deployed an Ilyushin IL-78 air to air refuelling tanker at Brize Norton.

    The IAF fleet departed India on July 15, with the fighters refuelling twice mid-air ahead of their first pit-stop at Taif in Saudi Arabia (near Jeddah). The formation then proceeded to Athens on July 16 refuelling once before their arrival. After another halt for one night, IAF aircraft flew onto the UK again refuelling once midair.

    For the Royal Air Force, the chance to train against the Russian designed Su-30 MKI, arguably the finest fourth generation fighter aircraft in the world, is rare. India is the largest international operator of the super-maneuverable fighter and was equally keen to pit the skills of its Top Guns against the RAF's new Eurofighter Typhoon, the mainstay of the RAF's fighter fleet.

    The first week of the exercises pitted the Su-30, which NATO calls the Flanker, in a series of aerial dogfight scenarios.

    First, there were 1 v 1 encounters where a single jet of each type engaged each other in Within Visual Range (WVR) combat, firing simulated missiles to a range of two miles. The exercises progressed to 2 v 2 engagements with two Eurofighters taking on two Su-30s and 2 v 1 exercises where two Sukhois took on a single Typhoon and vice versa.

    Notably, in the exercise where a lone Su-30 was engaged by two Typhoons, the IAF jet emerged the victor 'shooting' down both 'enemy' jets.

    In all dog fighting exercises, IAF Sukhois were able to turn sharply into the extremely agile Typhoons using their thrust-vectored engines to keep the RAF jets locked in their sights. The Su-30's advanced Infrared Search and Track System (IRST), a passive sensor, which cannot be tracked, proved to be a distinct advantage for the IAF's pilots in close-combat maneuvering.

    Both the IAF and RAF used the full capabilities of their onboard radars albeit in training mode, which meant that actual radar frequencies used in combat conditions were never exposed for confidentiality reasons. However, the detection ranges of the radars of both aircraft were not curtailed per se. This was air combat as close to the real thing as possible.

    The pilots themselves ranged from young Flight Lieutenants to senior Group Captains from either side drawn directly from Typhoon squadrons and the IAF's 2 Squadron, "The Winged Warriors" based in Kalaikunda. The idea was for both sides to expose their operational pilots to a modern frontline platform of the same class. Accordingly, the IAF did not deploy any senior pilots serving with its Tactics and Air Combat Development Establishment (TACDE).

    By the time the exercises shifted to Large Force Engagements (LFE) in the second week, IAF pilots were comfortable operating in British conditions. The Large Force Engagements saw mixed formation scenarios where the IAF operated its jets alongside RAF Typhoons in air battles against fellow Su-30s flying together with other Typhoons.

    [​IMG]

    © Provided by NDTV 24x7

    An IAF Sukhoi (Left) flies alongside RAF's Typhoon

    The Large Force Engagements saw 4 v 4 engagements at beyond visual range and graduated to a massive 8 v 8 engagement featuring 16 aircraft in the skies near Coningsby. IAF pilots shared tactical information with RAF pilots in their formations using radio communications since the IAF's data-link system (which shares critical sensor data with friendly aircraft) was not compatible with the Link 16 system in use with NATO aircraft like the Typhoon.

    Asked about the performance of IAF pilots in these Large Force Engagements, Group Captain Srivastav told NDTV, his pilots performed "fairly well" though "quantifying [the results] is difficult. It was not unexpected for the IAF to "lose" one or two jets (over all the Large Force Engagements put together) given that the movement of each formation was directed by fighter controllers coordinating an overall air battle. Both sides agreed to simulate their Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missiles at 25 miles for offensive missions and 22 miles for defensive scenarios.

    IAF C-130 and Il-78 jets also participated in the Large Force engagements where they were "defended" by the fighter formations they were flying with against 'enemy' attacks.

    The IAF also encountered no serviceability issues with any of its participating jets. All Su-30s were available for the daily exercises which took place over two blocks, one in the morning, the other in the afternoon for a total of eight sorties daily.

    Praising the support the IAF received from the RAF, Group Captain Srivastav told NDTV, "The hosts were very good. They were ready to extend exceptional support."

    [​IMG]

    © Provided by NDTV 24x7
    The sense of camaraderie extended to C-17 transport pilots of both sides. According to Group Captain Srivastav, "There was good interaction between young pilots. The C-17 Squadron of the RAF wanted some help in Kathmandu [following the Nepal earthquake]. We helped them then, this was more than reciprocated."

    RAF pilots showcased their assault landing and combat off-loading experiences with IAF pilots observing from the cockpit of the big jet. IAF pilots shared their experiences of operating the C-17 at high altitudes.

    Over the last decade, the Indian Air Force has been very keen to develop its Garud Commando Force meant to protect its assets such as air bases and also be deployed behind enemy lines if required. Operating alongside British forces in the UK, the IAF Garud commandos participated in a 96-hour camp in a training area close to Honington. This involved reconnaissance and surveillance missions and a combat free fall para-jump with British forces.

    [​IMG]

    © Provided by NDTV 24x7
    The IAF team which participated in the air combat exercise

    Back in India now, the IAF, like the Royal Air Force, is keen to point out that the exercises were a learning and training opportunity, and should not be seen as a battle between the IAF and the RAF who are close allies and partners. According to Group Captain Srivastav, "It was all about learning from each others experiences and to fine tune our own procedures."

    At the end of the day, though, for the IAF, these exercises were about gauging the skill levels of its own pilots and the aircraft they operate. For the IAF, these exercises came as positive news on where they stand against some of the best of the West.

    Source NDTV: http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/natio...-guns-score-wins-in-the-uk/ar-CCvp6?ocid=iehp
     
  2.  
  3. PaliwalWarrior

    PaliwalWarrior Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2014
    Messages:
    844
    Likes Received:
    306
    Location:
    Shunyavkash
    the excerpts from the above article

    "In some of the most intense international air combat exercises ever featuring the Indian Air Force, IAF pilots flying Sukhoi 30 MKI fighters had a resounding 12-0 scoreline in their favour against Royal Air Force Typhoon jets in Within Visual Range (WVR) dogfighting operations."


    conlcusion
    The IAF practices more dogfighting in its tactics

    "In subsequent Large Force Exercises (LFE) which featured combined Typhoon and Su-30 formations, the IAF jets were somewhat less successful but consistently held an edge over the Typhoon."

    conclusion
    the Su30MKI trumps EFT


    "First, there were 1 v 1 encounters where a single jet of each type engaged each other in Within Visual Range (WVR) combat, firing simulated missiles to a range of two miles. The exercises progressed to 2 v 2 engagements with two Eurofighters taking on two Su-30s and 2 v 1 exercises where two Sukhois took on a single Typhoon and vice versa.

    Notably, in the exercise where a lone Su-30 was engaged by two Typhoons, the IAF jet emerged the victor 'shooting' down both 'enemy' jets."


    Conclusion
    The SU30MKI trumps EFT even in 1 v/s 2 engagements - we can cocnlude that it can take on JF17 in 1 v/s 4 engagements sucessfully so barring the 4th 5th gen chinese planes it is a force multiplier in INDIA v/s Pak + China war too and can take on most of the planes of Pak + China in 1 v/s 2+ engagements sucessfully


    "In all dog fighting exercises, IAF Sukhois were able to turn sharply into the extremely agile Typhoons using their thrust-vectored engines to keep the RAF jets locked in their sights. The Su-30's advanced Infrared Search and Track System (IRST), a passive sensor, which cannot be tracked, proved to be a distinct advantage for the IAF's pilots in close-combat maneuvering."

    The future / option is IRST - OSF IRST - a counter/option system of Dedira + spectra - atleast for IAF & India

    And the IAF will go for more 3dTVC engines nozzles in thier future aircraft



    "The Large Force Engagements saw 4 v 4 engagements at beyond visual range and graduated to a massive 8 v 8 engagement featuring 16 aircraft in the skies near Coningsby. IAF pilots shared tactical information with RAF pilots in their formations using radio communications since the IAF's data-link system (which shares critical sensor data with friendly aircraft) was not compatible with the Link 16 system in use with NATO aircraft like the Typhoon.

    Asked about the performance of IAF pilots in these Large Force Engagements, Group Captain Srivastav told NDTV, his pilots performed "fairly well" though "quantifying [the results] is difficult. It was not unexpected for the IAF to "lose" one or two jets (over all the Large Force Engagements put together) given that the movement of each formation was directed by fighter controllers coordinating an overall air battle. Both sides agreed to simulate their Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missiles at 25 miles for offensive missions and 22 miles for defensive scenarios."



    Conclusion

    The IAF needs to focus more on tactics & practice for group engagements & in cooperative & networked environment alongwith working with AWACS


    the most important

    "The IAF also encountered no serviceability issues with any of its participating jets. All Su-30s were available for the daily exercises which took place over two blocks, one in the morning, the other in the afternoon for a total of eight sorties daily."


    WHERE THE HELL ARE THE GUYS WHO SAID SU30MKI CAN PERFORM ONLY 1 SORTIE PER DAY ???????

    THIS IS SPECIALLY & SPECIFICALLY HIGHLIGHTED FOR YOU and THIS IS POSTED HERE ON THIS THREAD FOR YOU & YOU ONLY
     
    sorcerer, bose, Sylex21 and 1 other person like this.
  4. akshay m

    akshay m Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2014
    Messages:
    258
    Likes Received:
    340
    Location:
    goa
    it has more or less been confirmed by the aviationist too,
    just in case MKI detractors call it DDM chest thumping, especially some of the BR guys.



     
    bose and Srinivas_K like this.
  5. The enlightened

    The enlightened Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2012
    Messages:
    415
    Likes Received:
    200
    I hope there is no chest-thumping this time.
     
  6. tsunami

    tsunami Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2015
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    464
    1 SU-30 MKI killing 2 EFTs at a time:shoot:
     
    akshay m likes this.
  7. tejas warrior

    tejas warrior Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2015
    Messages:
    672
    Likes Received:
    1,393
    Location:
    India
    'Rafale can be shot down like mosquitoes by the Chinese-made Sukhoi.' This statement was made by the Russian envoy sometime back.

    So it hold some weight, and should India have another look at the deal for MMRCA?

    Rafale & Typhoons were comparable as per IAF theories !!
     
  8. Yumdoot

    Yumdoot Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2015
    Messages:
    777
    Likes Received:
    645
    I wanted to be fair to Typhoons in Ex. Indradhanush 2015. But it is darn difficult to do that. Typhoon is a big fighter for a small sized country like GB and France, but for countries like Russia, China and India MMRCAs are basically a waste of time. Neither smaller and cheaper like Tejas nor big and capable like MKIs.

    There is every chance that the BFM that was done involved some where the Typhoons would be 'penalized' to carry external fuel tanks to equalize the fight. Equalizing is an objective in DACTs. That is the reason they decided to limit the radar usage for both Typhoons and MKIs in Ex. Indradhanush 2015. There are only a very few pictures where Typhoons are not carrying fuel tanks.

    This while not entirely fair to the Typhoons, however still would not give the Typhoon a good enough excuse. This would simply mean that the Typhoon is fuel starved when competing against MKIs. Moreover in one of the match the MKI had enough time to take down 2 Typhoons. So that implies there is a lot bigger margin of safety with MKI since the MKI would still be able to get at least 1 Typhoon class fighter before going back to its base. With the large fuel capacity MKI can even decide to wait out and tire out Typhoon class fighters and keep harassing them.

    External Fuel tanks imply:
    1) that Typhoon class fighters, lack endurance compared to a Su-30MKI; &/or
    2) that Typhoon class fighters will have to give up fuel fast to be able to take on Su-30MKI classed fighters and that may still not be enough.

    The problem with IAF is that the leadership is a pack of joker. They think an MMRCA in India is as relevant as a MMRCA in short-hop European countries or a JSF kind of plane hunting for poor Libiyans.

    Moreover how will MMRCAs fare when they begin to look bloated like this one:
    [​IMG]



    ..........................................................................

    Most times you will find Typhoon picks for this exercise with 1000 liter fuel tanks like these ones

    [​IMG]

    For size comparison:
    [​IMG]
     
    bose likes this.
  9. Scalieback

    Scalieback Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,092
    Likes Received:
    246
    http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/flanker-and-typhoon-dogfight-28072015
    http://forces.tv/00317417
     
  10. blueblood

    blueblood Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,871
    Likes Received:
    1,427
    @Scalieback , pretty lame defence by RAF. No offence but that statement reeked of embarrassment masquerading as politeness.

    While I agree that pretty much every other defence journalist in this country is either horribly incompetent or severely biased, Vishnu Som is one of the better ones out there.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu_Som

    Also, RAF didn't dispute the numbers put up by him.

    Nothing surprising there. This is Cope-India 2004 all over again.

    You just can't win.
     
  11. Scalieback

    Scalieback Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,092
    Likes Received:
    246
    As I've read accounts on Arrse by people who were on the exercise, I would disagree. But then I would :)

    In any case, this is about domestic consumption I believe and questions being raised in your Parliament and the Su's etc?

    Whatever happened, what's mentioned in the debrief is supposed to remain in the debrief. Seems all had a good time and some lessons learned
     
  12. blueblood

    blueblood Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,871
    Likes Received:
    1,427
    Offcourse you would. As I said, Cope-India 2004 redux.

    "I lost because the sun was in my eye" syndrome if you will. :biggrin2:

    [​IMG]

    NDTV is the last one to warm up to this "communal government" and it's "radical" PM.

    Something most of us here know.

    FYI, govt. is trying to suspend their broadcast for a month. Hardly, the one to peddle propaganda on behalf of MOD.

    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ice-on-coverage-of-yakub-memon-hanging.69257/

    Something we can agree on.
     
    pmaitra likes this.
  13. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    31,663
    Likes Received:
    17,158
    Location:
    EST, USA
    :lol:

    So, every thread turns into a chest thumping thread, doesn't it?

    Liked your meme. I found some nice ones.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    angeldude13 and blueblood like this.
  14. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,336
    Likes Received:
    1,955
    Location:
    Pindliyon ka gooda
    Vishnu Som who made the original 12-0 report made the following clarification on BRF
    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1882923#p1882923
     
    blueblood likes this.
  15. Scalieback

    Scalieback Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,092
    Likes Received:
    246
    Read the following, bearing in mind it is Arrse, so if the RAF were truly trounced they would be shouting it from the rooftops: http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/th...e-uk-fighter-jets-in-combat-exercises.241928/

    If you still believe it after that, so be it
     
  16. Scalieback

    Scalieback Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,092
    Likes Received:
    246
    Sad muppet is stalking me on every thread. Clearly desires me but it ain't gonna happen fan boy.

    FWiW Arrse is Army and if the RAF really were trounced they'd be shouting it from the rooftops.
     
  17. wegweg

    wegweg Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2014
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    37
    Location:
    Krakow
    The official RAF reply to the journalist's claim...

    i.e the journalist is lying.

    http://forces.tv/00317417
     
  18. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,336
    Likes Received:
    1,955
    Location:
    Pindliyon ka gooda
    Sour grapes
    Here - watch some 12-0 flying
     
  19. Scalieback

    Scalieback Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,092
    Likes Received:
    246
    Minor point but if you do some maths:
    8 x 1 v 1
    4 x 2 v 2
    2 x 4 v 4
    1 x 8 v 8

    How many sorties/dogfights is that?

    As I said to @blueblood you can believe what you like. I bet the MoD isn't launching an investigation which should happen if it was a 12-0 defeat
     
  20. blueblood

    blueblood Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,871
    Likes Received:
    1,427
    Now why do I doubt that.

    RAF getting trounced is one thing and RAF gettting trounced at the hands of poor, filthy, rapey Indians is another.

    The very first three posts say a lot about the butthurt than anything else.

    Indian Air Force Sukhois dominate UK fighter jets in combat exercises.png

    1. Hoping it's an Indian propaganda. Nothing special.
    2. Rape and poverty but nothing to add to the actual topic.
    3. Mentioning the road accident which resulted in 20 casualties for Indian Army.
    You guys are too cool. That is a fun forum you have there.

    Let me repeat myself;

     
  21. Scalieback

    Scalieback Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,092
    Likes Received:
    246
    Sadly DFI is a fan boy site, it's like debating with teenagers in a game of top trumps

    As I said, believe what you want but I bet the MoD aren't investigating the claims which they should do if it was a 12-0 defeat

    Open your eyes and seek the truth
     

Share This Page