Today China is what US was

[Rage]

Home-made nuke sub INS Arihant to be inducted in 2 years - India - The Times of India

"The `launch' of the 111-metre long INS Arihant by flooding the dry dock at the Shipbuilding Centre at Visakhapatnam on July 26 this year, in the presence of PM Manmohan Singh, marked India's entry into the select group of five nations -- US, UK, Russia, France and China
-- capable of building nuclear submarines.

But there is still a long way to go. It's only after its miniature 83 MW pressurised light-water reactor is `fired' sometime next year will INS Arihant begin its extensive sea-acceptance trials."

I think he's saying that they only flooded the dry dock for the Arihant's launch and that the 83 MW reactor wasn't even "fired" for the launch.

That is because the 'launch', son, is next year, as the article I posted in a previous post clearly illustrates.

What he was saying, or rather insinuating, is that the Arihant would turn into another "Arjun or LCA" because it did not have its "nuclear power reaction (?)[WTF]" installed, which, as is shown, is clearly not the case.

High fissile fuel in nuclear submarine lasts long

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Reactor internals must be rugged and resilient

Reactor internals remain inaccessible for inspection

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Every year, on October 30, scientists, engineers and other officials from the Department of Atomic Energy gather near the Central Complex Building, Trombay to celebrate the Founder’s Day. Being the Birth Centenary year of Dr. Homi Bhabha, this year’s celebration was unique. The stock taking of the research and development activities at the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) covered compact reactor for Arihant (the nuclear submarine), improved gas centrifuges for uranium enrichment, fuel fabrication for fast reactors and work on innovative reactors among other areas in the cutting edge of technologies.

BARC designed, developed and built the steam generating unit of Arihant by facing many technical challenges

“The compact Pressurized Water Reactor was designed for this purpose with several features; such as very quick response for power ramping, extremely stable undership motions and resistance against exposure to very high acceleration resulting from eventual depth charges”, Dr Sukumar Banerjee, Director, BARC said in his Founder’s Day Address

“Since the nuclear reactor is fuelled with high fissile containing fuel, it can supply energy in the submerged condition for an extended period without refuelling”, he clarified. Details about the reactor are classified.

Generally, Pressurized Water Reactors (PWR) power nuclear submarines. A PWR has a core of highly enriched uranium. When uranium nuclei undergo fission, the fission fragments carry enormous energy. They dissipate the energy in the core which gets heated up. The high pressure primary system with water as coolant removes the heat from the core continuously.

Water at high temperature enters the steam generators. In the steam generators, the heat from the water in the primary system is transferred to the secondary system to create steam. In the secondary system, the steam flows from the steam generators to drive the turbine generators, which supply the ship with electricity, and to the main propulsion turbines, which drive the propeller. After passing through the turbines, the steam condenses into water which is fed back to the steam generators by the feed pumps.

Naval reactors pitch and roll. Demands of power change rapidly. The manufacturing and quality assurance of reactor components must be of exceptionally high standard.

The reactor internals remain inaccessible for inspection or replacement throughout the long life of their core. They must be rugged and resilient. Reactor components and systems must withstand, harsh and hostile environment, long term effects of radiation, corrosion, high temperature and pressure.

As the reactor operates radiation level increases. Appropriate shields are built around the reactors to ensure radiation safety. A reactor may use over 100 tons of lead as shielding.

“Many systems and equipment designed and built were first of its kind in the country. The entire steam generating plant has been designed to give highly reliable offshore operation in a completely isolated environment”, Dr Banerjee noted.

“Control and instrumentation design is fault tolerant and requires minimum operator interventions. An elaborate diagnostic system enables a very high availability factor. Many new materials and technologies have been developed and new infrastructure has been created for this project”, he revealed.
Prototype system

The development of the steam generating plant of Arihant was preceded by setting up of the land based prototype system at Kalpakkam. The reactor which has been working for the past three years has served as a technology demonstrator.

“The entire plant with primary, secondary, electrical and propulsion system along with its integrated control was packed in the aft end of a land based submarine hull designed and built specifically for the purpose.

This protoype is serving as a training centre for the crew for the nuclear submarine”, Dr Banerjee said. The crew gets training with the help of an indigenously designed and built full scope simulator.

K.S. PARTHASARATHY

The Hindu : Sci Tech : High fissile fuel in nuclear submarine lasts long

Second generation reactors
Experience from the first generation reactors showed that the main operational problem was leakage of water from the primary to the secondary circuit. This occurred mainly through the steam generators. There were also problems of leaks in the pumping systems and the gaskets of the steam generators. The pumps and steam generators were intended to cool the reactor in the event of a power failure.

These experiences formed the basis for modifications introduced in the second generation reactors. Nevertheless, the loop pattern (i.e., a system of spiralling cooling pipes) was retained. The volume and distribution of the primary circuit was sharply reduced, and a system of pipes within pipes was used for the steam generators, especially for the newest pumps leading to the primary circuit.

Third generation reactors
A new block system was developed to protect the cooling circuits from leakage. By replacing the old system of pipes with a block system, in which the reactor and the cooling system were treated as one block, the dimensions of the pipes and other components could be reduced because the cooling efficiency of the system could be increased.

From a safety point of view, this solved number of problems. First of all, this system permitted a natural circulation of coolant within the primary circuit, even at high power. This was important for the flow of coolant into the reactor core at complete or partial power failure. With the block system, pipes to the primary circuit were replaced with short, wide diameter pipes which connected the main components (reactor, steam generators, and pumps).

Fourth generation reactors
The reactor for the first submarine was finished in 1995. Fourth generation nuclear reactors are formed into a single block. The monoblock design has the advantages of localising the coolant in the primary circuit into one volume of fluid and eliminates the need for pipes of wide diameter. The fourth generation reactors are constructed consistent with modern requirements for radiation safety.

Russian Reactor reference


Schematics

 

[Vladimir79]

US-China Trade Statistics and China's World Trade Statistics

I'm confused by your claim. Table 6 shows that China imports $400 billion dollars of "electrical machinery & equipment" and "power generation equipment." Table 5 shows that China exports $600 billion dollars of "electrical machinery & equipment" and "power generation equipment."

According to my math, China's trade balance has improved by $200 billion dollars in high-tech exports. How did you reach the opposite conclusion that "China exports the low tech goods and imports the high tech?"

Chinese imports are increasing in those products when they should be decreasing. China is fully capable of producing the low end tech which they buy, but they haven't hit the high tech which they must import. Until the imports decrease year on year, China is failing to become self sufficient in those technologies.

 

[StealthSniper]

Well to stay on topic, China is not even close to the industrial machine of South Korea let alone being close to America in any regard. China has to be a free nation, more environmentally friendly and invent it's own technologies before it can be in the right steps to maybe catch up to countries like Japan, India, South Korea and one day America.

 

[Martian]

Chinese imports are increasing in those products when they should be decreasing. China is fully capable of producing the low end tech which they buy, but they haven't hit the high tech which they must import. Until the imports decrease year on year, China is failing to become self sufficient in those technologies.

I still don't understand. How does China's $200 billion dollars surplus in high-tech exports of electrical machinery and power equipment indicate that China is a low-tech exporter (which was your earlier claim)?

 

[Martian]

Well to stay on topic, China is not even close to the industrial machine of South Korea let alone being close to America in any regard. China has to be a free nation, more environmentally friendly and invent it's own technologies before it can be in the right steps to maybe catch up to countries like Japan, India, South Korea and one day America.

China's First Man-made Satellite

"China launched its first satellite Dong Fang Hong I (DFH I) to earth orbit on April 24, 1970, becoming the fifth country in the world to independently launch satellite following the USSR, USA, France and Japan."

South Korean satellite launch misses target | World news | guardian.co.uk

"South Korea's latest attempt to enter the Asian space race suffered a setback today when a satellite carried by the country's first rocket veered off course."

To test your claim, let's look at a prominent example. Are you claiming that China is "not even close to...South Korea" in the high-tech satellite industry? Are you aware that China has been launching satellites for 39 years? Are you also aware that South Korea cannot even launch a rocket to carry a satellite in 2009? In some high-tech fields, did you mean to say that South Korea is not even close to China? Would you agree that South Korea is at least 39 years behind China in launching satellites?

Last year, during the first Asian spacewalk, do you remember whether it was a Chinese taikonaut or a South Korean astronaut that made Asia proud?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvpPknmHGAM

 

[nimo_cn]

Well to stay on topic, China is not even close to the industrial machine of South Korea let alone being close to America in any regard. China has to be a free nation, more environmentally friendly and invent it's own technologies before it can be in the right steps to maybe catch up to countries like Japan, India, South Korea and one day America.

Right, so dont take this stupid article serious.As you said, China still has a long way to catch up with SK and India, so China is nowhere near US.

 

[Vladimir79]

I still don't understand. How does China's $200 billion dollars surplus in high-tech exports of electrical machinery and power equipment indicate that China is a low-tech exporter (which was your earlier claim)?

The mention of surplus wasn't about the tech level but an observation that 2008 is not 2009. The import increase is the indicator of where China is technologically, or should I saw was in 2008. As long as those imports continue to increase, it tells us China is still importing high tech Western technology instead of using their own. Sorry if I confused you.

 

[badguy2000]

The mention of surplus wasn't about the tech level but an observation that 2008 is not 2009. The import increase is the indicator of where China is technologically, or should I saw was in 2008. As long as those imports continue to increase, it tells us China is still importing high tech Western technology instead of using their own. Sorry if I confused you.

CHina import raw resource(oil,iron ore and others from Africa,Austria,latin america and ...russia) and high-tech ones, then export low&mid&high-tech goods all over the world.

fairly speaking, CHina industry chain is quite full,but its industry foundation is still not as consolidated as USA,west Europe and Japan.

espeically many upstream sections of chinese industry chain needs be consolidated more,such as materials and machining.

 

[Martian]

The mention of surplus wasn't about the tech level but an observation that 2008 is not 2009. The import increase is the indicator of where China is technologically, or should I saw was in 2008. As long as those imports continue to increase, it tells us China is still importing high tech Western technology instead of using their own. Sorry if I confused you.

I recognize that the trade levels for 2009 will be lower than 2008 for all nations. However, only statistics for 2008 are available and it is reasonably assumed that the relative decline for imports and exports are roughly proportional for the 2009 statistics.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that China is a low-tech exporter as long as she imports high-tech products from other major trading nations. I am not aware of any major trading nation that does not import high-technology products from another major trading nation.

Are you saying that a country is a low-tech exporter if it imports high-technology products from another nation? Can you name a single major Western nation that does not import any high-technology products? If not, does that mean every Western nation is also a low-tech exporter according to your definition?

 

[Vladimir79]

I recognize that the trade levels for 2009 will be lower than 2008 for all nations. However, only statistics for 2008 are available and it is reasonably assumed that the relative decline for imports and exports are roughly proportional for the 2009 statistics.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that China is a low-tech exporter as long as she imports high-tech products from other major trading nations. I am not aware of any major trading nation that does not import high-technology products from another major trading nation.

Are you saying that a country is a low-tech exporter if it imports high-technology products from another nation? Can you name a single major Western nation that does not import any high-technology products? If not, does that mean every Western nation is also a low-tech exporter according to your definition?

The definition doesn't apply to Western nations because they do not apply protectionist policies a tenth as heavily as does China. Whatever China can produce itself, it will buy itself little matter of the cost. Their imports are in direct relation to their domestic technological and qualitative levels. This is not the case in open-market developed nations.

 

[Martian]

Right, so dont take this stupid article serious.As you said, China still has a long way to catch up with SK and India, so China is nowhere near US.

Telecom-Gear Challenger Huawei Makes Quality a Competitive Focus - WSJ.com

"STOCKHOLM—Huawei Technologies Co.'s challenge to European rivals has largely focused on its pricing advantage. But industry watchers say the Chinese network-equipment vendor, which last week won a contract from Belgian telecommunications provider Belgacom SA, now has another key selling point: the quality of its technology.

As the telecom industry emerges from the global economic slump, European telecommunication-gear companies—global market leader Telefon AB L.M. Ericsson; Nokia Siemens Networks, a joint venture between Finland's Nokia Corp. and Germany's Siemens AG; and Paris-based Alcatel-Lucent SA—are likely to face increased pressure from world No. 2 Huawei in their own backyard."

Do you guys bother reading the news? Here in the US, the newspaper headlines constantly indicate that China is breathing down the neck of US industry.

 

[StealthSniper]

I think I didn't word my last post properly. China and India's technology are increasing I agree, but for China to match America or South Korea or Japan it needs to invent new products and make high quality products. China is importing it's technology so it's not in the same Industrial complex as the heavy hitters from Europe, Japan and America. When China catches up to where America and Japan are now, Japan and America will be far ahead.


This is not to say that this is only for China. India is also in the same boat. But for India we are rapidly improving our indigenous effort while China is improving it's quantity and importing tech. So I think right now India is on the path to educate it's population and to use the talent indigenously while China is trying to catch up to other countries by importing technology. I think the better model is to homegrown our talent and INVENT new things and create our own path. Which India is doing.

Japan, America and European countries also became leaders in the world by educating it's population and using their own technology to become industrial leaders.

 

[badguy2000]

The definition doesn't apply to Western nations because they do not apply protectionist policies a tenth as heavily as does China. Whatever China can produce itself, it will buy itself little matter of the cost. Their imports are in direct relation to their domestic technological and qualitative levels. This is not the case in open-market developed nations.

so, how about Russia,according to you definition?

I am afraid that 90% of Russian export are raw resource such as oil&gas.

It very ironic that what China import from Russia is such raw resource ,and What China export to Russia are industry products,including cars.and now high-speed railway....

so how do you comment on Russia?

 

[Martian]

The definition doesn't apply to Western nations because they do not apply protectionist policies a tenth as heavily as does China. Whatever China can produce itself, it will buy itself little matter of the cost. Their imports are in direct relation to their domestic technological and qualitative levels. This is not the case in open-market developed nations.

You haven't persuaded me that a $200 billion dollar trade surplus in high-tech goods can be transformed into an indicator that China is a low-tech exporter because it has some protectionist policies. As far as I can tell, balance of trade in high-tech goods and protectionist policies are two separate issues.

It seems simple to me that a $200 billion dollar trade surplus in high-tech export goods implies that a country is a high-tech exporter making a huge profit.

 

[badguy2000]

I think I didn't word my last post properly. China and India's technology are increasing I agree, but for China to match America or South Korea or Japan it needs to invent new products and make high quality products. China is importing it's technology so it's not in the same Industrial complex as the heavy hitters from Europe, Japan and America. When China catches up to where America and Japan are now, Japan and America will be far ahead.


This is not to say that this is only for China. India is also in the same boat. But for India we are rapidly improving our indigenous effort while China is improving it's quantity and importing tech. So I think right now India is on the path to educate it's population and to use the talent indigenously while China is trying to catch up to other countries by importing technology. I think the better model is to homegrown our talent and INVENT new things and create our own path. Which India is doing.

Japan, America and European countries also became leaders in the world by educating it's population and using their own technolgy to become industrial leaders.

it is just a myth to put S.korea and even Japan into the league of CHina and Russia .

S.korea and Japan are good at some industry sections,but they are short of many sections of industry..... in fact, many industry sections are almost zero in Japan and S.korea,such as air engine..in other word, Japan and S.Korea has no full industry chain.

Instead,Russia and China have full industry chain,although their industry chains are not advanced as Japan's or S.korea's.



Top-end industry products such as Spaceships ,nuke subs and ICBM needs the support of almost all industry sections. Japan and S.korea has not full industry sections.so they can not produce spaceship independently as Russia and CHina do.

frankly speaking, only USA,EU(as a whole),Russia and CHina can produce spaceship independently and nuke-subs...which itself tell us where they ranks on the global tech-chain...

 

[Vladimir79]

You haven't persuaded me that a $200 billion dollar trade surplus in high-tech goods can be transformed into an indicator that China is a low-tech exporter because it has some protectionist policies. As far as I can tell, balance of trade in high-tech goods and protectionist policies are two separate issues.

I didn't make the surplus a point of debate to the level of technological imports. I said the importation increase. How many times have I said that now?

It seems simple to me that a $200 billion dollar trade surplus in high-tech export goods implies that a country is a high-tech exporter making a huge profit.

Who says the $200 billion surplus was in high tech? They are low end goods. Just because you export transistors and generators doesn't mean high tech.

 

[Martian]

I think I didn't word my last post properly. China and India's technology are increasing I agree, but for China to match America or South Korea or Japan it needs to invent new products and make high quality products. China is importing it's technology so it's not in the same Industrial complex as the heavy hitters from Europe, Japan and America. When China catches up to where America and Japan are now, Japan and America will be far ahead.


This is not to say that this is only for China. India is also in the same boat. But for India we are rapidly improving our indigenous effort while China is improving it's quantity and importing tech. So I think right now India is on the path to educate it's population and to use the talent indigenously while China is trying to catch up to other countries by importing technology. I think the better model is to homegrown our talent and INVENT new things and create our own path. Which India is doing.

Japan, America and European countries also became leaders in the world by educating it's population and using their own technology to become industrial leaders.

Are you aware that China "INVENTS" (i.e. receives U.S. patents) more than India?

Patents By Country, State, and Year - All Patent Types (December 2008)

Patents granted by the United States for the year 2008.

1. U.S. 92,000 patents
2. Japan 36,679
3. Germany 10,086
4. South Korea 8,731
5. Taiwan 7,779
6. Canada 4,125
7. U.K. 3,843
8. France 3,813
9. Italy 1,916
10. China 1,874
...
Hong Kong 717 (Patent office counts Hong Kong as a separate entity)
India 672
Russian Federation 181

2008 is a landmark year for South Korea. It is the first time that South Korea has passed Taiwan in the number of U.S. patents received.

While the current number of Chinese patents appears to be insufficient to support a large high-tech export base, the combination of Greater China (i.e. Chinese, Taiwanese, and Hong Kong) patents should suffice. Greater China's 10,370 patents (i.e. China's 1,874 + Taiwan's 7,779 + Hong Kong's 717) are greater than the number of German patents at 10,086.

 

[Martian]

Are you aware of the current Chinese advances in nanotechnology, drug delivery, quantum cryptography, material science, etc.?

Here is a sample of the cool products that might result from China's R&D.

Nanotechnology: Tom Mackenzie on China's giant step into nanotech | Technology | The Guardian

BBC NEWS | Health | Nanoparticle lung threat blocked

'Nano-raspberries' for Steamy Windows

Polymers release insulin in response to glucose trigger

China develops world's first quantum cryptography network

New Super-bouyant Material: Life Preserver Might Float A Horse

 

[StealthSniper]

Are you aware that China "INVENTS" (i.e. receives U.S. patents) more than India every year?

Patents By Country, State, and Year - All Patent Types (December 2008)

Patents granted by the United States for the year 2008.

1. U.S. 92,000 patents
2. Japan 36,679
3. Germany 10,086
4. South Korea 8,731
5. Taiwan 7,779
6. Canada 4,125
7. U.K. 3,843
8. France 3,813
9. Italy 1,916
10. China 1,874
...
Hong Kong 717 (Patent office counts Hong Kong as a separate entity)
India 672
Russian Federation 181

2008 is a landmark year for South Korea. It is the first time that South Korea has passed Taiwan in the number of U.S. patents received.

Based on what I have seen industrial product wise, their invention's aren't really showing much. But considering the Chinese government is so secretive maybe they are inventing unmanned stealth bombers or something.

 

[Martian]

I didn't make the surplus a point of debate to the level of technological imports. I said the importation increase. How many times have I said that now?



Who says the $200 billion surplus was in high tech? They are low end goods. Just because you export transistors and generators doesn't mean high tech.

If neither electrical equipment & machinery and power equipment exports qualify as high-tech nor transistors then what does qualify as high-tech exports in your opinion? Oil exports?

Do you think Huawei is exporting low-tech goods?

http://www.chinasourcingblog.org/2008/10/china-and-hightechnology-threa.html

"Yet the rise in China's exports has also been characterized by an important shift in its export structure. Where twenty years ago China was primarily an exporter of textiles, textile articles and apparel, today China is the world's largest exporter of electronics and machinery-related products, which make up 43% of China's total exports. China is rapidly moving up the technology ladder and is therefore becoming more competitive in exports of high-value capital goods - industries where traditionally Western countries such as Japan, Germany and the US have held the competitive advantage. But to what extent is China really able to compete with these countries today?

To better analyze this competitive landscape, we can make use of the industry classification of the OECD in its STAN Bilateral Trade Database, edition 2006, to compare Chinese and US high technology exports during the past few years."

Look at the chart in the linked article. The OECD says that China has overtaken the US in high-tech exports.