Time to Kick Turkey Out of NATO?

Discussion in 'Subcontinent & Central Asia' started by AVERAGE INDIAN, Oct 20, 2014.

  1. AVERAGE INDIAN

    AVERAGE INDIAN EXORCIST Senior Member

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    The Kurdish town of Kobane in western Syria is under siege by the Islamic State. A U.S.-led coalition has hit at the jihadists sieging Kobane—with 13 strikes on Wednesday and Thursday—but bombs alone may not suffice. It is the Turkish military, whose tanks are currently sitting on the Syrian border, that may be in the best position to save stave off a mass slaughter. But the Turks refuse to join the fight, even though the Turkish Parliament voted on Oct. 2 to deploy the Turkish army to fight in Iraq and Syria, and to allow foreign troops on Turkish soil. A week after the vote, Turkey has not participated in any U.S.-led operations against the Islamic State.

    Turkey’s stock as a Western ally is plummeting. Ankara stubbornly resists joining the coalition unless it broadens its fight to topple Syria’s Bashar al-Assad. Turkey’s 200 or more F-16 fighter jets sit idle as the Islamic State makes alarming gains across Syria and Iraq. This stands in sharp contrast to other Muslim world allies – including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar and even Jordan – that have taken part in the aerial campaign against the Islamic State.

    Turkey’s absence is conspicuous. It’s the only NATO ally among these Muslim world partners. To be clear, the fight against the Islamic State is not a NATO mission, but it serves as a reminder of how little Erdogan’s regime has done to help preserve order in the Middle East.

    In many ways, Turkey has made the fight against the Islamic State more difficult. Apart from permitting some unarmed American drones to fly out of its territory, Ankara has refused to allow the West to operate from Turkish airbases. This has forced strike aircraft to fly their sorties from the Al Udeid airbase in Qatar, Shaheed Mwaffaq in Jordan or Al Dhafra in the UAE. As for the Incirlik air base that NATO operates in Eastern Turkey, Ankara has made it clear that for the time being, it is currently off limits for armed operations.

    But this should come as no surprise. Incirlik has long been off limits. Ankara refused to allow the United States to utilize the air base for kinetic operations in the 2003 Iraq war and its aftermath. Instead, the base has been used for logistics, support and training. Turkey owns the facility, but technically, according to Article 5 of the NATO charter, it cannot restrict the NATO activities on the base in an approved operation. Still, it can restrict U.S. personnel and equipment. And it has consistently done so, to the frustration of American military planners.

    Admittedly, one could argue that the Turks were right to hold off on joining America’s ill-fated war in Iraq. But that would be ignoring Turkey’s role in other international conflicts. Take the NATO-led mission in Afghanistan since 2001, where Turkey limited its role to logistics and training and refused to take part in combat. Similarly, Turkey deployed nearly 400 personnel to NATO forces in Kosovo, as well as other personnel to other international operations in the Balkans, but with responsibilities limited to training, observation and support.

    Jonathan Schanzer is vice president for research at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies. He tweets at @JSchanzer.

    Read more: Time to Kick Turkey Out of NATO? - Jonathan Schanzer - POLITICO Magazine
     
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  3. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    And lose control of the Bosporus?

    As far as the ISIS is concerned, maybe Turkey is enjoying Arabs massacring Arabs since there was a time when the Turks ruled these unwashed rabble.
     
  4. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Such a step would be too drastic. Turkey's PKK problem can't be ignored either.
     
  5. Sylex21

    Sylex21 Regular Member

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    Might not be a bad idea. Turkey seems to be getting more and more Islamist by the day. Not sure why NATO exists at all, how would the USA and Western Nations like it if India + Russia + China + 17+ other Asian nations made a giant military coalition and mutual defense pact and excluded the USA and all western nations.
     
  6. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    The mission of NATO:
    What Is NATO? Purpose, History, Members and Alliances

    What you seem to suggest does not make sense geographically or politically, and ignores treaties Asian nations now have.
     
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  7. jouni

    jouni Senior Member Senior Member

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    Locigal move, considering Turkeys current leadership.
     
  8. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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  9. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    You are correct.

    The Ottoman rule over the Arabs was sporadic, nonetheless. They even tried to build the Hejaz Railway, to help transport troops up to Medina and keep a tab on the Arab tribes, and control the pilgrimage routes. It was not very successful, as the Arab tribes constantly harassed the Ottomans, and finally, the Ottomans had to give up control. This was mainly on the western side of the Arabian Peninsula.

    I don't think they will be able to control this region again, and what would they gain? Most of the oil fields are to the east.
     
  10. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Turkey has not been accepted into EU , this move would further isolate Turkey.
    It seems doubtful this will happen. Turkey was a vital part of NATO . In 1960's
    Nukes were pointed at Soviet Union from turkey which lead to Cuban missile
    Crisis when Russia placed nukes in Cuba as claimed by Russia the opposite
    Claimed by USA .
     
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  11. Razor

    Razor CIDs from Tamilnadu Senior Member

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    Turkey still hosts nuclear warheads pointed at Russia.
    And thanks to NATO being a very peaceful alliance countries like Germany, Belgium, Italy and Nederlands also host Ameriki nukes. In addition 3 other NATO members possess indigenous nukes.
    This nuclear proliferation and the expansive nature of NATO must be the reason why NATO is seen as an alliance of peace by Russia.
    :sarcastic:

    ----------

    On topic, sooner rather than later Turkey and Japan will start moving away from America orbit, and pollocks and baltics will start moving closer to American sphere.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2014
  12. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    I don't know if japan can move away so easily?
     
  13. Razor

    Razor CIDs from Tamilnadu Senior Member

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    Japan is a country which is totally dependent on import of raw materials, which means stuff from various countries should be able to reach Japanese shores safely.
    Eventually Japan will start to emphasize and strengthen its Naval capabilties. Once that starts, Japan becomes a competition to the US (because it is primarily the US Navy which allows the US to dominate the planet.)
    Japan will start feeling feeling frictions with the Americans and will start moving away. This will also allow them to have better relations with neighbors like Russia and Asia.
    I think the Japanese are capable of doing this.

    Similarly Turkey is a powerful nation which (through control of Bosporus Straits) controls the Black Sea along with the Russians (now that Crimea is back in Russian hands.) Turkey with access to Suez (important for trade) and Gibraltar straits, will strengthen Navy as trade shifts to Asia. Turkey will start improving relations with the East and Russia, and will see no need to actually be part of NATO and move away.

    Baltic countries with their non-existent populations and Poland with no potential for Naval expansion will strengthen ties with America. Poland, Baltics and Finland are essentially buffers just like Nepal, Mongolia, Xinjiang, Canada and so on.

    There will be more "peaceful protests" in Ukraine, except unlike last time when it was triggered by America, this time it will be triggered by Russia.

    Maybe I am smoking something strong :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2014
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  14. parijataka

    parijataka Senior Member Senior Member

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    More to do with Shia-Sunni strife than any ideology. AFAIK Assad is an Alawite or type of Shia, hence Turkey being Sunni supporting the rebels trying to oust Assad; Israel (and US) supporting rebels as Assad is pro Iran. While ISIS supported by Saudi and Qatar, again a Sunni fundamentalist group, is slaughtering Shia, Christians, Yazdi, Kurds, etc in Iraq.

    Net effect is that Middle East is practically a slaughterhouse today - in short Muslims killing Muslims and no need to blame the `Evil West` here !
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2014
  15. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    I don't think Turkey is looking at it from the Shia-Sunni PoV. I think they don't want to lose a lot of territory to the Kurds. They'd rather let the Kurds and ISIS obliterate each other. Regarding helping the al-Qaida and its affiliates (no different from ISIS, in my eyes), they probably did it at the bidding of the US.
     
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  16. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    Wishful thinking the only country that would be happy with this would be Greece.
     
  17. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    Re Kobane, I have a (pure) suspicion that the Americans and the Turks at first may have made it appear that they are not intervening or helping the Syrian Kurds so that ISIS will be emboldened to go all-out in its offensive against the City and commit the bulk of its forces in an effort close the gap in their newly conquered territories. Once ISIS massed their forces there that's when the Americans and their allies systematically struck. ISIS' most battle hardened forces are now actually trapped inside Kobane where the Kurdish forces have the clear upper hand (aided by American air attacks). ISIS cannot easily get out of Kobane since they will be exposed to air strikes on the desert. Their supply route to Kobane which passes through open grounds are also exposed to air strikes.

    Now that ISIS fighters are trapped in Kobane, Turkey has opened the gates for Kurdish reinforcements from Iraq to help finish off the remnants of ISIS on a street-to-street and building-to-building operation.

    It does seem reasonable that a trap was set up against ISIS in Kobane.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2014
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  18. apple

    apple Tihar Jail Banned

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    Haven't been keeping entirely up to speed on the situation. Are the Peshmerga, Kurds? i.e. the PKK? Or, are the Senator Hilary Clinton's anti Assad "moderate" Islamists? Either way, is a good move and while Turkey mightn't be pulling it's weight, seems they've stopped being an anchor.

    :)

    While you have a good point about Turkey's (previous) importance to NATO, that was when it was a base for short ranged nuclear missiles aimed at the Soviet Union. That time is long gone.

    I've noticed this thread has the forums member who believe that NATO is the Devil's handmaiden.

    But, while I'm not being a national of member of a NATO state. I believe I can say that while that while NATO has some members with dodgy histories (cough)***Deutschland***, Turkey, is proud and unashamed of its persecution of Europeans, Arabs, Armenians and, most recently, Kurds and has never been suitable for NATO.

    P.S. Ewald, the Guardian is a quality newspaper and its journalists do good work (Snowden was their boy). But, to try and couch it in your terms, it makes the NYT look like Fox news. Champagne Socialists we call Guardian readers (this is a step above being just a pinko).

    P.P.S. The usual suspects i.e. Ray and Pmaitra, the Bosphorus Straits... Is this 1840? Europe isn't important and sea access to (southern) eastern Europe even less so
     
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  19. Prometheus

    Prometheus Regular Member

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    as and when the US economy collapses, they will realize that their so called "friends " were never their friends to begin with ...... the only reason Japan , and the rest of the so called allies cooperate with the US is for their own protection in a unipolar world .... do you really believe that the Japanese like the Americans? the world has not forgotten Hiroshima & Nagasaki.... would it be possible that the Japanese have?. They will be the first ones to strike the US as and when they can!.
    As of Turkey they are doing what is best for them, and I am sure a neutral country like India would have done the same. The Alquida and the ISIS are US creations to begin with, like the WMD's in Iraq, they know that if Turkey participates in the War, it wont be stopping it .....it will be adding fuel to the fire, its like an invitation to ISIS to rage war in their territory. Remember that the Muslim world regards the WOT as another "Western Crusade" and hate it in their hearts, its like a fire starving of air, if they(govt of Turkey) in any way participate in the war, the populous will explode and they will be fighting an American created War within and outside their territory.
     
  20. apple

    apple Tihar Jail Banned

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    Atomic bomb was less destructive than other raids to other Japanese cities. Some German cities got the thick end of the stick too. The Japanese aren't related to Pakistani's and are sensible enough.

    As for Al Qaeda, not so much. They were fighting the Soviet Union and got some help. And ISIS :) just, no.

    Inshallah, Prometheus.
     
  21. Prometheus

    Prometheus Regular Member

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    In war there is a huge difference between targeting the Army installations and Weapons manufacturing base, and mass slaughtering Civilian hubs.

    Hmmm.... lets see Muslims killing Muslims, who benefits? US? Russia? China? India? UK? France? Pakistan? .......
    lets see .... Possible weapons and ammunition sales? US
    Possibility of more foreign basses?............................US
    Greater control of oil producing nations...............US
    Intimidating smaller oil producing nations RE oil production and thus regulating world Economy......US
    Muslims killing muslims ..........US
    getting greater control of Pakistan.......US
    getting greater control of China .........US
    getting greater control of Russia...... US
    getting greater control of India...... US
    .....the list goes on and on
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2014

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