Tiananmen anniversary: China arrests activists

nimo_cn

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
4,032
Likes
883
Country flag
1. What is the difference between 'violent crackdown' and 'massacre'?

2. How many people dead would make the classification and difference between 'violent crackdown' and 'massacre'?

3. If tanks are used what would be the cumulative effect in stopping dissidents?

4. Are tanks used against demonstrators in China as a routine mode?

5. Did the students or the student leaders know that CPC will take this very strong move?

6. Which all student leaders escaped to the USA?

7. How are you sure that if the student leaders knew that the CPC would take a strong move, they did not inform all? But then, the question that begs an answer if did the student leaders know?
The difference between a massacre and a crackdown is obvious and clear, I have pointed out in my previous post. If there is no difference between the two, why are you bothered by the word crackdown. In fact, you are aware of the difference between the two better than anyone else, that is why you insist on using the word massacre

Does that matter how many people died? Does that matter what weapons were used? What matters is that no one wanted them to die, that is why ambulances were there.

If the student leaders didn't know, how did all of them escape from Tiananmen Square on the eve of 4th, June? Only one of them was arrested as far as I know, do you really expect me to believe that was just a coincidence, genius? The only reasonable explanation is they knew something bad was gonna happen, if not, why did they leave? If they informed all, how would the students sit there and wait for the bullets?

How did they get out of Beijing? How did they get out of China?

If you didn't even know who the student leaders were,then how do you even have the nerve to pretend as if you know everything?
 
Last edited:

nimo_cn

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
4,032
Likes
883
Country flag
The Gate of Heavenly Peace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Controversy

The Gate of Heavenly Peace sparked controversy before it had even been completed. The film was part of a growing debate over the history of 1989; according to an article that appeared in The New York Times on April 30, 1995, "a central question for many in the student movement, and for some historians, is whether moderation gave way to extremism during those six weeks and whether the more radical student leaders spurned opportunities to declare victory by ending the demonstrations and preserving, perhaps, the reformist trend that was still a prominent feature of the Chinese leadership." [5]

The New York Times article also quoted from a controversial interview that was used in The Gate of Heavenly Peace. On May 28, 1989, just days before the massacre, American journalist Philip Cunningham interviewed one of the student movement's most prominent leaders, Chai Ling. In this interview, Chai indicated that "the hidden strategy of the leadership group she dominated was to provoke the Government to violence against the unarmed students. With statements [in the interview] like 'What we are actually hoping for is bloodshed' and 'Only when the square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes,' Ms. Chai denounced those students who sought to bring an end to the occupation of the square." (op. cit.) The May 28, 1989 interview was undertaken at Chai Ling's request. She then asked Cunningham to release it internationally as her political statement on the student movement. The Gate of Heavenly Peace makes extensive use of this interview (necessitated in part by Chai Ling's repeated refusal to be interviewed for the film). [6]

The filmmakers suggest that "the hard-liners within the government marginalized moderates among the protesters (including students, workers and intellectuals), while the actions of radical protesters undermined moderates in the government. Moderate voices were gradually cowed and then silenced by extremism and emotionalism on both sides." [7] In following the fate of these "moderate voices," the film raises questions about some of the decisions that were made by a few of the student leaders. For this, the film was angrily condemned by many in the Chinese exile community, including Chai Ling herself. For example, in April 1995 -- well before the film had even been completed (it premiered in October 1995) -- Chai wrote, "Certain individuals, for the sake of gaining approval of the [Chinese] authorities, have racked their brains for ways and means to come up with policies for them. And there is another person with a pro-Communist history [Hinton] who has been hawking [her] documentary film for crude commercial gain by taking things out of context and trying to show up something new, unreasonably turning history on its head and calling black white." [8]

The notion of extremism on both sides (i.e., hardliners among the government and students) was not a view unique to The Gate of Heavenly Peace. In a review published in The American Historical Review in October 1996, Michael Sheng writes, "The filmmakers... interpret the [1989] movement with passion and intellectual vigor," noting that "angry voices from the Chinese exile community have denounced the film and its directors as loudly as the Beijing government. The filmmakers, however, are not the first or the only ones to hold the argument that the polarizing approach of both sides made the tragedy inevitable. Many scholars, observing the divisions within the student leadership as well as in the government, have formed opinions similar to that of the filmmakers"¦. One of [Tang] Tsou's findings [in Twentieth-Century Chinese Politics: From the Perspective of Macro-History and Micro-Mechanism Analysis, Hong Kong, 1994] is that the kind of two-sided confrontation in the spring of 1989 is nothing new; it is deeply rooted in the traditions of Chinese political culture. Tsou's arguments are convincing in light of Chai Ling's behavior. Her 'binary' approach and intolerant attitude of 'if you are not with me, you are against me' is well documented in the film... And it becomes clearer in the debate over the film, when she attacked the filmmakers as co-conspirators of the Beijing regime." [9]

Such an attitude -- the "'binary' approach and intolerant attitude" -- persisted years after the film had been completed. In 2007, Chai Ling, her husband Robert Maginn (a former partner at Bain, the CEO of Jenzabar, and chairman of the Massachusetts Republican Party), and their company, Jenzabar, sued the filmmakers over their website (Tiananmen: The Gate of Heavenly Peace home), accusing them of being "Motivated by ill-will, their sympathy for officials in the Communist government of China, and a desire to discredit Chai...."[10] In a New Yorker article about Chai Ling and the lawsuit, Evan Osnos noted, "For the record, to anyone with knowledge of the film, the notion that it is sympathetic to the Chinese government is laughable..."[11] Public Citizen -- a consumer advocacy group whose litigating arm focuses on cases involving consumer rights, separation of powers, open government, and the First Amendment, among others [12] -- offered to represent the filmmakers pro bono[13]; the Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Harvard Law School wrote an Amicus Curiae brief.[14]. Although the lawsuit was dismissed by a Massachusetts court in December 2010, Jenzabar is appealing this decision.[15] During the course of the lawsuit, Chai Ling -- who converted to Christianity in 2009 -- accused the filmmakers of aligning themselves not only with the Chinese government, but with an even greater force, denouncing them as "tools of Satan."[16] There were many others, however, who signed a letter condemning the lawsuit. Among those who gave their support to the filmmakers were prominent dissidents, some of whom had been jailed by the Chinese government for their role in the Tiananmen demonstrations. Additional signatories included Chinese students who had participated in the 1989 movement, noted artist Ai Weiwei, and scholars and professors from approximately two hundred fifty universities and colleges around the world.[17] Articles in the Boston Globe ("A Victory for Free Speech")[18], The New Yorker (The American Dream: The Lawsuit)[19], and The Guardian ("From democracy activist to censor?")[20] criticized the lawsuit, and Boston's PBS station Frontline stated that the lawsuit "poses first amendment issues and is a potential threat to all newsgathering, reportorial and academic sites."[21]

While the lawsuit focused on the website, some student leaders continued to criticize the film. Feng Congde wrote an Open Letter in May 2009, referring to what he said was "false reporting and editing" with regard to Chai Ling in The Gate of Heavenly Peace. The filmmakers posted both Feng's letter and a lengthy response on their website in July 2009; in this response, they write, "The alleged falsehoods that are described in the Open Letter simply do not exist in the film." They go on to provide a detailed examination of Feng's charges, citing specific examples from the film.[22]
 

Sunder singh

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2012
Messages
539
Likes
145
with all the due respect for china will china ever come forward and tell international community the truth just for a while
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
5,010
Likes
2,308
Country flag
with all the due respect for china will china ever come forward and tell international community the truth just for a while
They already did tell their side of story, you just won't accept it!
So, maybe you should step forward and tell them what kind of truth you expect! And then they can go back and re-make the book to fit your taste.
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
5,010
Likes
2,308
Country flag
Would it be easier for you if they have also shed their own blood during the crackdown
You should ask them why they didn't.

I didn't see any of them regreting about their fleeing.

Look, being a coward during a fight is not big deal, but running away before it starts is really shameful, especially considering this is the fight they have been asking for and encouraging others to sacrifice for it.
 

Oblaks

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Messages
372
Likes
123
You should ask them why they didn't.

I didn't see any of them regreting about their fleeing.

Look, being a coward during a fight is not big deal, but running away before it starts is really shameful, especially considering this is the fight they have been asking for and encouraging others to sacrifice for it.
Again would u be happy if they died during the crackdown?
 

nimo_cn

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
4,032
Likes
883
Country flag
Again would u be happy if they died during the crackdown?
Not really. If they did stay with the students I would call them heros. And if unfortunately they died in the crackdown, I would feel sad.

Fact is that they are no heros, they are just opportunists who built their reputation and fame on the blood of others.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
The difference between a massacre and a crackdown is obvious and clear, I have pointed out in my previous post. If there is no difference between the two, why are you bothered by the word crackdown. In fact, you are aware of the difference between the two better than anyone else, that is why you insist on using the word massacre
Crackdown means arrests and not killing people even in anger.

Massacre means killing people without ascertaining the degree of involvement in opposing the State i.e. shoot at sight.
I take it that you want to state that none died!

Does that matter how many people died? Does that matter what weapons were used? What matters is that no one wanted them to die, that is why ambulances were there.
Does it not matter?

Is life in China that cheap?

Maybe you are right that life is cheap in China. So many died during the Cultural Revolution but not a word of protest from you all.
Understandable. Your cold heartedness is well understood, though not appreciated as it is not understood as a human being!

If the student leaders didn't know, how did all of them escape from Tiananmen Square on the eve of 4th, June? Only one of them was arrested as far as I know, do you really expect me to believe that was just a coincidence, genius? The only reasonable explanation is they knew something bad was gonna happen, if not, why did they leave? If they informed all, how would the students sit there and wait for the bullets?
One doesn't have to be a genius, but then they are many who are stupid to accept the CCP propaganda hook, line and sinker. But then they have to accept it or get shot themselves and so your contention is not surprising.

How do you know that the leaders bolted on the eve? You were there? Or were you told so by your Communist Party?

Since you have no idea of Leadership, may I inform you that unless there is the leader who exhorts people to go ahead, the people will just turn tail with the first hail of bullets. To organise a mob or a demonstration, there has to be a leader and the remainder are mere followers. Therefore, it there is no leader to push the crowd, the mob will merely flee. Therefore, it is total tripe to say that the leaders were not there.

It is as in war. Unless there is an officer leading the attack, the attack will never succeed and will peter off inspite of good training for war.
How did they get out of Beijing? How did they get out of China?
What is so difficult?

The CCP did not even know that such a demonstration would take place. Just check the history of the way it developed. Therefore, it shows that the CCP and the Govt was clueless. So, how difficult would it be to fool such a clueless lot and get out of China?

How do you think North Koreans get out of North Korea, go through China (a friend of North Korea) and land up in South Korea? Imagine they go through two dictatorial regimes to achieve the freedom they want!!!!!

If you didn't even know who the student leaders were,then how do you even have the nerve to pretend as if you know everything?
I had the nerve to call you out.

I knew the leaders. Wikipedia has it.

I wanted you to tell us, but you did not know and instead made big claims.

Got that, Steve?
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
I find it ludicrous the manner in which our Chinese friends make a massacre appear to be a graduation prom! ;)
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
5,010
Likes
2,308
Country flag
Crackdown means arrests and not killing people even in anger.

Massacre means killing people without ascertaining the degree of involvement in opposing the State i.e. shoot at sight.
I take it that you want to state that none died!
Thanks, Ray, you are the best lawyer I have ever seen! I should tell that to my friends: why do you confess? You did nothing wrong even though thousands of eyes saw it!
Keep denying it!
Well done, Ray!

Does it not matter?

Is life in China that cheap?

Maybe you are right that life is cheap in China. So many died during the Cultural Revolution but not a word of protest from you all.
Understandable. Your cold heartedness is well understood, though not appreciated as it is not understood as a human being!
Yes, we really can't appreciate the idea that put some human lives above others.
Yes, our people's lives are more valuable than those dead soldiers': as long as we are on the 'democracy' sides, we got the rights to do anything or burn anyone alive.
Thanks, Ray, I feel much better!



One doesn't have to be a genius, but then they are many who are stupid to accept the CCP propaganda hook, line and sinker. But then they have to accept it or get shot themselves and so your contention is not surprising.

How do you know that the leaders bolted on the eve? You were there? Or were you told so by your Communist Party?
On the contrary, the people they left behind them: the students and their supporters in the tianmen square! When PLA approaching the square, these students could not find a single leader to make the decision - fight or run.

Since you have no idea of Leadership, may I inform you that unless there is the leader who exhorts people to go ahead, the people will just turn tail with the first hail of bullets. To organise a mob or a demonstration, there has to be a leader and the remainder are mere followers. Therefore, it there is no leader to push the crowd, the mob will merely flee. Therefore, it is total tripe to say that the leaders were not there.
It is as in war. Unless there is an officer leading the attack, the attack will never succeed and will peter off inspite of good training for war.
Thank you, Ray, you just point out another evidence of the absence of these students leaders: there were very few students coming out of square to fight.
The whole street fight had been done by Beijing local residents! They have their own leadership.


What is so difficult?

The CCP did not even know that such a demonstration would take place. Just check the history of the way it developed. Therefore, it shows that the CCP and the Govt was clueless. So, how difficult would it be to fool such a clueless lot and get out of China?

How do you think North Koreans get out of North Korea, go through China (a friend of North Korea) and land up in South Korea? Imagine they go through two dictatorial regimes to achieve the freedom they want!!!!!
Yes, CCP didn't expect such a demonstration!
But the whole demonstration had been going on for 2 month and even marshall law was imposed for half month, it would be far out to assume that CCP was still clueless on 04/06/1989.
Chasing hundredes thousandes North Koreans is difficult, but it would be a piece of cake to arrest less than 20 students leaders if you really want.


I had the nerve to call you out.

I knew the leaders. Wikipedia has it.

I wanted you to tell us, but you did not know and instead made big claims.

Got that, Steve?
Oh, no, Ray, you don't know these guy. All you know is just some words from internet.
We know these people:
We hear their speech with our ears;
We see their move with our eyes;
They can fool the people like you, who has the best wish to all pro-democratic things.
But we know who they were, we know what role they played in that 2 months, we even know what kind of students they were before the demonstration (my brother attended the same university in that year). They were never democratic activists. They were nothing but opportunists.
 

Daredevil

On Vacation!
Super Mod
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
11,615
Likes
5,772
Here is a picture of Tiananmen Square Massacre. No where in the world will you see a battalion of Tanks be used against your own people.

 

s002wjh

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2009
Messages
1,271
Likes
155
Country flag
Here is a picture of Tiananmen Square Massacre. No where in the world will you see a battalion of Tanks be used against your own people.

untrue, many country including some western country roll in tank when situation getting out of hand. of course the difference is the western country didn't kill few hundred people. during vietnam era, there are cases where National guard are moblize to stop student demonstration.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top