Tiananmen anniversary: China arrests activists

s002wjh

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I have'nt read or seen any of those docu but from a concrete perspective, how could an intentional civilian massacre be justified. And could it be that the activist leaders planned or foresaw the massacre? I don't think so. Those incidents should be untoward and lead to the unexpected, that is, the CCP instead of containing the rallyists instead massacres them. I don't see any reason to defend the CCP for that.
no the government should never fire upon the people.
that been said, the activist leader and students live in a communist country know full well what would happen when they go up against the government. it would be fine if they stay alongside with their fellow students during the 6/4. however, they basically asking students to go up against armed military, while they themself stay behind and later flee to other countries. notice NONE of the activist leader are dead/in prison in china, all of them fled, while many lower rank students die. its like i'm asking someone else to fight for me under live/die situation while myself is running away. if you watch some of these student leaders video, you notice this.
 

Oblaks

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no the government should never fire upon the people.
that been said, the activist leader and students live in a communist country know full well what would happen when they go up against the government. it would be fine if they stay alongside with their fellow students during the 6/4. however, they basically asking students to go up against armed military, while they themself stay behind and later flee to other countries. notice NONE of the activist leader are dead/in prison in china, all of them fled, while many lower rank students die. its like i'm asking someone else to fight for me under live/die situation while myself is running away. if you watch some of these student leaders video, you notice this.
Those guys introduced an idea of change that the people back then saw as worth fighting for. Therefore they went out on the streets because of that ideals. There is a saying "together we stand, divided we fall". With that said, in times of collapse and desperation, people will fall apart to avoid annihilation. Staying behind when you know certain death awaits you may be brave or it may be foolish. Again I'm saying I don't see any reason to defend the CCP for that. They are still the aggressors.
 

s002wjh

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i'm not defending CCP, clearly everyone agree government shooting unarmed student is wrong. But the point was, was those activist leader has some fault or push the students against armed military for their own idelogy/benefit/whatever, yes they did. they didn't worry about the well being of their fellow students, all they want is pushing the issue with their ideology. and the result was they got away while the fellows who blindly fellow their order die in pool of blood. i mean if some activist leader ask you go up against armed police during a protest/riot while he/she stay behind/run toward the other direction would you do it, especially if the protest is occur in a totalitarian regime.
so was CCP at fault, yes they are. does the activist leader has some fault of their own? yes they do.
 

Oblaks

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We're the student's forced to go rally and protest on the streets? Did the activists planned the massacre? It was an untoward, unexpected incident where the turning point was the CCP aggression. I just could not picture, putting the blame on someone else. It's like saying " oh we were having such a peaceful and prosperous life until you activists came and tricked us to join this rally". If life in China that time was so good, nobody would think about doing something for change. I even think that because of this incident, everybody had some sort of wake up call even for the CCP.
 

Ray

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no the government should never fire upon the people.
that been said, the activist leader and students live in a communist country know full well what would happen when they go up against the government. it would be fine if they stay alongside with their fellow students during the 6/4. however, they basically asking students to go up against armed military, while they themself stay behind and later flee to other countries. notice NONE of the activist leader are dead/in prison in china, all of them fled, while many lower rank students die. its like i'm asking someone else to fight for me under live/die situation while myself is running away. if you watch some of these student leaders video, you notice this.
Who were the activist leaders?
 

nimo_cn

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I have'nt read or seen any of those docu but from a concrete perspective, how could an intentional civilian massacre be justified. And could it be that the activist leaders planned or foresaw the massacre? I don't think so. Those incidents should be untoward and lead to the unexpected, that is, the CCP instead of containing the rallyists instead massacres them. I don't see any reason to defend the CCP for that.
By no means could a massacre be justified, but what happened where wasn't a massacre, but a violent crackdown. The purpose of massacre it to eliminate people, the purpose of crackdown is to stop people from doing something.

Apparently CPC was trying to the latter, even the documentary I mentioned failed to depict it as a massacre. Ambulances were there to take the wounds to hospital, have you seen any organized massacre like that? But still firing bullets at the students was't right. Please understand that no one is defending the cruelty of CPC demonstrated this incident.

And please review the posts, I didn't even mention CPC. I was mainly quesioning the intentions of the students leaders and raising some reasonable doubts, how does that become an act of defending CPC?

Are those student leaders really that innocent? Please answer my three simple questions, then we can proceed this dicussion.

!> How did those student leaders find out CPC was gonna take move before anyone else?
2>How did all of them succeed in escaping from Beijing and fleeing to America after their high-profile confrontation against CPC for almost a month?
3>Why didn't they inform the students they had summoned that CPC was gonna take move before they left, so that innocent lives could have been saved and tragedy been avoided?
 

Oblaks

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Ok I stand corrected. It was a crackdown. And yes massacre or crackdown, it still is condemned. I have no facts to Give as answers to your questions. If you know the answer you could perhaps share it with us. But please make Them factual. IMO the only way those activist leaders could be guilty is if they had planned the crackdown themselves.
 

no smoking

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Ok I stand corrected. It was a crackdown. And yes massacre or crackdown, it still is condemned.
No! If it was a massacre, we would condemned CCP; But now, we - Beijing residents condemn students leaders more than CCP.

I have no facts to Give as answers to your questions. If you know the answer you could perhaps share it with us. But please make Them factual. IMO the only way those activist leaders could be guilty is if they had planned the crackdown themselves.
Ok, let me share some "rumors" with you, which were spreading around for a very long time:
!> How did those student leaders find out CPC was gonna take move before anyone else?

The people around Zhao leaked the information.

2>How did all of them succeed in escaping from Beijing and fleeing to America after their high-profile confrontation against CPC for almost a month?

First, US and China made the deal--China turns blind eyes to the students leaders and US would keep the sanction on a limited level.
Second, these students leaders also made the deal with CCP-- providing the information of the source of their political support and economic support, domestically and externally.

3>Why didn't they inform the students they had summoned that CPC was gonna take move before they left, so that innocent lives could have been saved and tragedy been avoided?

They and the people behind them wanted to see blood in Beijing streets. They believed that a bloody crackdown would raise the whole country's anger at CCP.
 
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Ray

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ChaiLing was one of them. the other i can't pronounce nore spell their name.

That makes one bloke who fled and the remainder incognito because their names are way out! :)
 

Ray

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By no means could a massacre be justified, but what happened where wasn't a massacre, but a violent crackdown. The purpose of massacre it to eliminate people, the purpose of crackdown is to stop people from doing something.

Apparently CPC was trying to the latter, even the documentary I mentioned failed to depict it as a massacre. Ambulances were there to take the wounds to hospital, have you seen any organized massacre like that? But still firing bullets at the students was't right. Please understand that no one is defending the cruelty of CPC demonstrated this incident.

And please review the posts, I didn't even mention CPC. I was mainly quesioning the intentions of the students leaders and raising some reasonable doubts, how does that become an act of defending CPC?

Are those student leaders really that innocent? Please answer my three simple questions, then we can proceed this dicussion.

!> How did those student leaders find out CPC was gonna take move before anyone else?
2>How did all of them succeed in escaping from Beijing and fleeing to America after their high-profile confrontation against CPC for almost a month?
3>Why didn't they inform the students they had summoned that CPC was gonna take move before they left, so that innocent lives could have been saved and tragedy been avoided?
1. What is the difference between 'violent crackdown' and 'massacre'?

2. How many people dead would make the classification and difference between 'violent crackdown' and 'massacre'?

3. If tanks are used what would be the cumulative effect in stopping dissidents?

4. Are tanks used against demonstrators in China as a routine mode?

5. Did the students or the student leaders know that CPC will take this very strong move?

6. Which all student leaders escaped to the USA?

7. How are you sure that if the student leaders knew that the CPC would take a strong move, they did not inform all? But then, the question that begs an answer if did the student leaders know?
 

Ray

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No! If it was a massacre, we would condemned CCP; But now, we - Beijing residents condemn students leaders more than CCP.
Do you have an option but to parrot what is the official line?

Let me give an example of how 'public opinion' is made in China.

When Mao was alive none felt or could say that Mao was wrong.

When Deng became the Boss, he said Mao was 30% wrong and 70% right.

So, the whole of China changed from Mao is 100% right to Mao is 70% right and 30% wrong.

Why and how?

Because the Boss Deng had said so and it was official and one could not be put in jail for parroting Deng.



Ok, let me share some "rumors" with you, which were spreading around for a very long time:
!> How did those student leaders find out CPC was gonna take move before anyone else?

The people around Zhao leaked the information.
So that is how the 'public opinion' is being moulded?

That is what is the 'official' view, right?

Any proof?

2>How did all of them succeed in escaping from Beijing and fleeing to America after their high-profile confrontation against CPC for almost a month?
So, the student leaders could carry on their activities for ONE MONTH and the Chinese Govt could do nothing and it was only after one month they all vanished to the USA en mass!

Who are these student leaders who could dupe the powerful CPC?

How come if the student leaders were identified, they could not be arrested?

First, US and China made the deal--China turns blind eyes to the students leaders and US would keep the sanction on a limited level.
Second, these students leaders also made the deal with CCP-- providing the information of the source of their political support and economic support, domestically and externally.
A very plausible story to cover up a mess up.

Deals all around and the CPC looks readily becomes a stool pigeon and China looks to be fools and incompetents internationally?

Surprising, since so much is felt about 'losing face' in China!

So, the CPC willingly went into deals to 'lose face' and look a fool internationally?

3>Why didn't they inform the students they had summoned that CPC was gonna take move before they left, so that innocent lives could have been saved and tragedy been avoided?

They and the people behind them wanted to see blood in Beijing streets. They believed that a bloody crackdown would raise the whole country's anger at CCP.
A good one!

And their gain in having blood on the streets of Beijing?

To imagine one demonstration would bring down the Chinese Govt!
 

no smoking

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1. What is the difference between 'violent crackdown' and 'massacre'?
The difference is that we didn't make the way for PLA to pass through. Instead, we used sticks, bricks and fuel bomb to welcome them. We were not that innocent!

2. How many people dead would make the classification and difference between 'violent crackdown' and 'massacre'?
Number is not the key point. Both sides' behaviors were.

3. If tanks are used what would be the cumulative effect in stopping dissidents?
Only if tanks were used! But those tanks got onto the stage after the whole thing is finished. Armoured vehicles, however, were used. I personally saw 1 of them were captured and 3 were burned.

4. Are tanks used against demonstrators in China as a routine mode?
Never!

5. Did the students or the student leaders know that CPC will take this very strong move?
Ordinary students? No!
Students leaders? Yes! Their absence is one of reasons that students surrendered peacefully in Tianmen square!

6. Which all student leaders escaped to the USA?
The names I know:

wang dan,
chai ling,
wu erkaixi
wei jingsheng

7. How are you sure that if the student leaders knew that the CPC would take a strong move, they did not inform all? But then, the question that begs an answer if did the student leaders know?
Because all of them 'coincidently' left the square before CCP's move!
Because one of taiwanese supporters received the warning too. But obviously, he had the guts to face the consequence. His name is Hou Dejian.
 

no smoking

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Do you have an option but to parrot what is the official line?

Let me give an example of how 'public opinion' is made in China.

When Mao was alive none felt or could say that Mao was wrong.

When Deng became the Boss, he said Mao was 30% wrong and 70% right.

So, the whole of China changed from Mao is 100% right to Mao is 70% right and 30% wrong.

Why and how?

Because the Boss Deng had said so and it was official and one could not be put in jail for parroting Deng.
So that is how the 'public opinion' is being moulded?

That is what is the 'official' view, right?
Of course, you have more to teach us about public opinion regarding this event since:
You are not the one lost his or her best friends, sons and husbands in defending these students leaders.


So, the student leaders could carry on their activities for ONE MONTH and the Chinese Govt could do nothing and it was only after one month they all vanished to the USA en mass!
Who are these student leaders who could dupe the powerful CPC?
How come if the student leaders were identified, they could not be arrested?
Isn't that funny? With hundreds millions dollars budgets and thousands professional special agents under command, CCP can't find several 20 years old kids? Especially they already started to video these students long before that night!

Deals all around and the CPC looks readily becomes a stool pigeon and China looks to be fools and incompetents internationally?
Surprising, since so much is felt about 'losing face' in China!
So, the CPC willingly went into deals to 'lose face' and look a fool internationally?
A good one!
"losing face?" You are kidding me?
If CCP can't make through the coming sanction, their survival would be a big problem.
And on the contrary, linking these students with foreign government support can definitlly remind chinese public of foreign invasion. Is anything better than that: we are not crashing a riot, but beat another potential foreign invasion.

And their gain in having blood on the streets of Beijing?
To imagine one demonstration would bring down the Chinese Govt!
Oh, yes, they really did believe they can make it. To be honest, we believed it too at that time.
 
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amoy

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I'm not so much obsessed with those student "leaders" who,perhaps, fled and left peers to face all those "atrocities"

They at least ignited hope for change. It's no doubt at that time people were furious with first inflation, corruption, then stagnant democracy.

I think CCP ( Deng leadership) could have handled dissidences better. Tear gas, water, etc. should have been enough for such "civil unrests".

Perhaps, CCP at that time never had been groomed for such events which are like routines in a democracy (See Greece? ) . It got panic when people across the country demanded "change" in the backdrops of Soviet bloc started crumbling.

And even today, few challenge Deng's role in that event as it's like biting the arm that feeds u to question Deng who's the architect of "reform and opening". But Deng, indeed, played a vital role in enforcing the curfew.
 

Ray

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Student Leaders Reflect, 20 Years After Tiananmen

June 3, 2009
In 1989, three young students at Beijing University became bit players in history. They were among the leaders of the pro-democracy movement that would shake China to its core.

It was 20 years ago Thursday that gunfire on Tiananmen Square snuffed out their dreams. In exile, the lives of these three student leaders have taken very different paths, but all are using new technology to try to influence China's future.

Birth Of The Movement

The pro-democracy movement started, as it ended, with death. The first death was reformist party leader Hu Yaobang, who suffered a heart attack and died on April 15, 1989.

Three days later, students at Beijing University gathered to mourn the popular leader, who had been ousted two years earlier for his liberal leanings. Among them was Zhang Boli, then a 30-year-old journalist in the university's writing program.

Zhang recalls the moment when, as if by instinct, the students marched to Tiananmen Square, and an act of mourning turned into one of protest.

"We were walking towards Tiananmen Square. We had no organization, no aim, no leader," Zhang remembers. "This was the first protest. While walking, I thought we needed to propose something to the government. So I wrote down seven requests and rode a bike to catch up with the others."

Those initial, hastily scrawled demands — for democracy, press freedom and an end to corruption — became the battle cries of the swelling protests. As the students took over Tiananmen Square, tens of thousands of workers, and even government officials, joined in, and demonstrations began in cities across China. But as positions hardened, the carnival atmosphere morphed into a hunger strike.

Violence In The Square

On May 18, 11 student representatives tried to negotiate with Premier Li Peng in China's citadel of power, the Great Hall of the People. One of the 11 was math student Shao Jiang.

"I told the government, [it's] like a crossroads in China," Shao recalls. "If [they] cannot respect students' demands, we go back to very dark times."

As June 3 wore into June 4, China's leaders — fearing chaos — sent in the army to disperse protesters still in the square.

Zhang was there.

"We saw crowds trying to stop the army by grabbing their uniforms and shouting, 'Protect the students!' Then the army opened fire," he says.

"The ridiculous thing was the soldiers were shouting, 'Love the capital, love the people!' as they fired on us. It was like members of one family murdering each other. We began crying. I was numb. There was no fear; there was no anger. We felt it didn't matter if we lived or died," Zhang says.

The Chinese government says 241 people died; human rights groups believe the real figure was much higher. Survivors' guilt haunts many who were there — among them, biology student Shen Tong, who describes himself as an accidental student leader. He witnessed killings in the avenue leading to Tiananmen Square.

"So much life [was] lost. It will be on my conscience forever," Shen says. For 15 years he had nightmares, he says, which stopped only when his daughter was born five years ago. Shen describes the memories as a "curse" that replayed over and over in his brain even after waking up.

Finishing 'Unfinished Journey' To Freedom

Shao, the student negotiator, has devoted his life to those who died.

"For me, I must finish the unfinished journey to fight for freedom and democracy in China," he says.

Shao fled to the United Kingdom, where he now has an IT job — solely to earn his keep, he says. His passion is working to change China. He believes the legacy of June 4 is the proliferation of small-scale protests on issues as diverse as human rights, pollution and last year's tainted-milk scandal. He is trying to help China's emerging civil society by disseminating information electronically.

"We publish [on] different sensitive issues and send millions of e-mails every day into China. Also, we can learn how to transform totalitarian regimes into democratic countries," Shao says.

Saving Souls, Spreading God's Gospel

Zhang, the former journalist who brought the students to the square, has taken a different path. Once, he preached for democracy; now he preaches for Jesus. Formerly No. 17 on Beijing's most-wanted list, Zhang today is a pastor at a Chinese church in Fairfax, Va.

After the clampdown, Zhang spent two years in hiding, much of it in a remote mountain cabin near the frozen Russian border, where he lived off wildlife that he caught. He also spent a month in a Russian prison. It was at that time that he found God.

"I read the Bible and began to know God," Zhang remembers. "I gained sustenance from it. People really needed God then. They needed a future. I couldn't see the future with my bare eyes."

Zhang finally escaped China through Hong Kong and sought asylum in the United States. These days, he throws himself into ministering his flock. He is planning to build a 16,000-square-foot church for his congregation, which currently numbers about 300.

Yet he reaches a far larger audience with his sermons, which are recorded and put online for converts inside China to download.

He is clear about his mission.

"Democracy is not my job. I am not a revolutionary. My job is to save souls and spread God's gospel, to let the love of Jesus Christ melt the hatred in China," Zhang says.

Using Media As 'Democratizing, Liberalizing Force'

For Shen Tong, the path hasn't been so clear. He fled to the U.S. to study. For 10 years, he also worked to bring about political change in China. But he had doubts about the efficacy of his work.

"Chinese people deserve human dignity as well as economic development. I'm glad I still see that simple truth. But I didn't know what to do with it. I didn't know if we were making any positive change," he says.

Disillusioned, Shen founded a software company, VFinity. It developed a media search engine, a sort of professional Google for television companies.

Evidently successful, he now lives in a huge apartment on Broadway in New York City. His company sells its software to, among others, Chinese universities and state-run television stations. He denies having any kind of mission, but he admits being excited by the possibilities offered by technology.

"I couldn't wait to get this technology into China, into universities and TV stations. It's incredibly empowering. The mass media, eventually, is a democratizing, liberalizing force," he says.

June 4: Reckoning Still To Come

Haunted by the past, each of these three former student leaders has taken a different approach to influencing China's future. All believe China's government will one day have to reassess its bloody suppression of the movement.

Zhang compares it to a cancer: You can deny it for so long, but if left untreated, eventually it will devour you.

Shen agrees.

"Someone jumps off a tall building. Each floor he passes, he tells himself, 'This is OK so far, this is OK so far.' So it doesn't matter how far you fall, it only matters how you land. [19]89 is not the only bomb that will explode, but it's probably one of the most important, if not the most important one," Shen says.

Those heady days of idealism, followed by betrayal and killings, are not discussed much in today's China. As lives improve and people become richer, moving has become a way of life — and the general public has become complicit.

But those who helped lead the student movement believe June 4 cannot be forgotten. It remains frozen in history, waiting for the day of reckoning, they say.

Student Leaders Reflect, 20 Years After Tiananmen : NPR
 

no smoking

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When you turn pro-democracy into a business, you will find that it is lot more profitable than other companies.

These survived students leaders never lack their business talents. Now, after 20 years study in USA, they learned some new skills from Hollywood and Washington.

There is one thing for sure: they will never stop benefiting themselves from others' blood.
 
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Oblaks

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When you turn pro-democracy into a business, you will find that it is lot more profitable than other companies.

These survived students leaders never lack their business talents. Now, after 20 years study in USA, they learned some new skills from Hollywood and Washington.

There is one thing for sure: they will never stop benefiting themselves from others' blood.
Would it be easier for you if they have also shed their own blood during the crackdown
 
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