The Su-35 flies to China

[p2prada]

China has more advanced aircraft than this J-11B, J-10B , J-15 etc why they want to buy Su-35?

J-11B, J-10B, J-15 etc are not as good as Su-35.

Both Japan and India will have 4.5th gen aircraft in a few years.

China's going to have to keep up.

 

[Sam2012]

J-11B, J-10B, J-15 etc are not as good as Su-35.

Both Japan and India will have 4.5th gen aircraft in a few years.

China's going to have to keep up.

Sir Farhaan & Chinese members in DFI will hang u if u tell J-11B, J-10B, J-15 etc are not 4.5 generation aircraft not good as Su-35:shocked:

 

[p2prada]

Sir Farhaan & Chinese members in DFI will hang u if u tell J-11B, J-10B, J-15 etc are not 4.5 generation aircraft not good as Su-35:shocked:

They can try. They won't get anywhere.

You can check my discussions with ice berg in this thread and the J-20 thread. The Chinese have no issues in saying the Su-35 is better.

 

[ice berg]

Shouldn't the J-20 and J-11 fill the same role as a high end air superiority aircraft.

Or is the J-20 a much smaller aircraft, maybe in the F-15C weight class with around 5 or 6 tonnes of fuel, and a 12-13 tonnes empty weight? Something like the EF-2000, with 5th gen capabilities, then that makes sense. That would solve a lot of other doubts too.

I think it is in the same class as Su-35. If PLAAF buys Su-35, it means they are not so happy with J-11s

I guess so, especially when it comes to developing a 9:1 T/W engine.

I think the goal of Ws-15 is 10:1 T/W.

That would be interesting.



On the contrary, if you had production bottlenecks you would expand. We are doing it, it would be much more easier for you.

It comes down to cost benefit analysis. If it is only gonna be opened for a few years, is it wise to open a new one?

Agreed. But these could very well be initial orders. While you can't fight a war with 24 jets, you can't clear production bottlenecks with 24 jets either.

I guess it is possible.

There are and will always be two options. Either SAC plans to reverse engineer certain technologies for future applications or PLAAF is planning on ordering much more than 24 jets as a 4.5 th gen requirement after evaluating it or both are possible.

True. probably both I think.

There is a chance that if the J-20 is much lighter than a Su-35, then the 117S will give it a major thrust upgrade.

According to the russian ws-15 is a 18 ton thrust engine. It cant be so much lighter than su-35.

Why, that's not true. You just need to fix your own datalinks to it, along with your own cockpit design which I am sure the Russians will be happy to install for you.

Any su-27, su-30MKK linked to chinese AEW&C?

We plan on doing that fleet wide with Indian (LCA/UAV/EW/AWACS), French (Rafale), American (transports), Israeli (UAV/AWACS/AEW/EW) and Russian (everything else) aircraft, you guys have it easy in comparison.

Russians sell better stuff to India.

I should say less that 1000 left if you are referring to our 3rd gen definition, else much more than that when it comes to our 4th gen definition. I am assuming you are referring to our 3rd gen.



It only makes the case for PLAAF requirements stronger.



Still 24 is too less a number to clear any kind of a production bottleneck.



Have you seen the Israelis deliver any lesser when it came to giving up their Greenpine radar? Heck, they couldn't deliver the Greenpine, so they came to India and helped DRDO develop an even better radar. The same with the delivery of French FCR for our BMD.

According to the DRDO chief we have achieved complete self reliance in the BMD program.

I can't comment on the Phalcon program because we don't know anything about it yet. We did not even know the proper radar designation until recently.



The AL-31FP was their best engine when they signed agreements for ToT. The development of the 117S happened much, much later when the Su-35BM program started again.

If they could sign "Deep ToT" agreements for their best engine then, why would they not sign a new agreement today?

Because the devil is in the details. What exactly was in the deal? Nobody is gonna give you strategic tech like materiale science and engines designs. We will just have to disagree on this one. QUOTE]
This contract was signed in 2000.
HAL inks $300 million Sukhoi deal - Times Of India


One, they are very, very confident of our ability to adhere to IPR and contract obligations.

Two, we are in effect strategic partners.

Three, they know that we don't need their engines for other purposes except for modernizing and using on the FGFA alone. That is to their benefit.

Why will they ToT on engines when you have to buy it from them in the first place? I have yet to see a source that says Russia will give India 5-gen engine tech. It is only your wild guess.

Now that we have Russia out of the way, let's get to France and Britain. They have the engine technology we seek and both IAF and GTRE would prefer that we go through the Europeans in order to get the best stuff followed by the Russians and with the Americans falling last in line. This is in order to have a more diverse base. Also GTRE has mainly worked on British engines in the past.

So, why would Britain and France want to give away their engine technologies to India. It is very, very simple, really. We have money. We have money and they don't. It is the same thing why Israel was so heavily dependent on a Phalcon contract from India or China in the past. They wanted money. Why money, you ask? The answer is simple. They don't have the money.


Now, reading the above statements you will think I am some sort of an idiot. Okay, let me explain in another way. There are two reasons why we have the money and they don't have the money. One, they don't have a military, or have a sizable military. Two, they don't have the money to propel their own domestic programs forward. So, these countries neither have the money to push their research forward or the market to purchase it once the technology is developed, but they have the technology to do it. India has both money and a large market, but no technology.

If Britain and France want to continue to be military exporters in the future, they need a market to sell to. But in order to do that they need development money that can make these things, for which India can pay. Today, neither Britain nor France can afford a new aircraft development project and hence an engine making capability is the biggest hurdle to maintain until a new project can be started after 2040 (that's their plan). That's too long a dormant period for anybody. There is no guarantee they can sustain it while competing with Russia, US and maybe even China.

Hence their salvation can lie in a future engine project with India or another country like Turkey, Japan, Sweden etc. Whatever engine tech they have planned, they can sell to us with guaranteed profits because they know we have a market that can absorb anything that they can make. A JV with India would mean they don't have to take risks by not finding any export customers, like how the Russians poo-phooed the loss of a deal worth $7.3 Billion in Korea after withdrawing PAKFA from the tender, saying they have a much bigger deal with India (over $30 Billion).

I see your line of reasoning. However I think you are underestimate the resilience of their industry.They are in a bad shape, but they are not desperate yet. Their view is simple. They have tech that others including India wants. Giving full ToT will bring a new competitor in a distant future. Sellig finished engines on the other hand is more profitable. So it comes down to self-preservation. No matter how much you pay them it is NOWHERE near the amount of money they have spend. They DO not want India or any other country have that kind tech. This is a huge and profitable sector. They are not gonna let India have a slice of that. Period.

Your JF-17 marketing technique was the exact same as well. A guaranteed export customer who can absorb all the costs with a long production run.

Jf-17 dont involve engine ToT.

India knows and understands this fact very well. So it is really a buyers market here since even the Americans and Russians would not want to lose out on a contract worth Billions that will be almost guaranteed with the production of a minimum of 250 AMCAs (minimum 1000 engines) and hundreds of different UCAVs that we may plan for after AURA.

Are you able to make your own engines? No? then it is not buyers market. No engines= No indian aircrafts. Period. YOu know it and they know ti.

Now you know why Britain and France would wanna line up for an engine JV with India. They will practically be begging to hand over their technology and we will get to choose.

Like I said the devil is in the details. Any certiefied indian engines? No. So what does the JV on engine brough India so far?

Agreed. We are behind. But terming the K-9 itself as a failure is wrong. It is the LCA Mk1 which failed with just one crucial failure of K-9 in 2004, not the entire K-9 program since it continued after that.

I will say both K-9 and LCA failed. They couldnt deliver what was promised.

PLAAF won't have a better option than the 117S. It still belongs to a family of proven engines.

117s is not proven. And they have the ws-15 for J-20. Though the possible sale of Su-35 casts doubts on the project.

Nobody else will give it.



I would say 2015-16, since PLAAF will ask for modifications, especially in the cockpit. And the Russians may take at least another year before they increase the capacity of their own production line to 24-30 aircraft a year up from whatever number is being delivered to VVS today.

Then it is only 1-2 years ahead of the projected J-20 delivery.

 

[ice berg]

They can try. They won't get anywhere.

You can check my discussions with ice berg in this thread and the J-20 thread. The Chinese have no issues in saying the Su-35 is better.

I find platform vs platform discussion quite silly. What is interesting is what Su-35 BM can bring to PLAAFs overall force projection. In other words, what are their envisioned role, how can they attribute to the current chinese air doctrines. I guess we will find out in the next few years.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

You sir are a liar.
AVIC plans to inject its major engine related businesses into Xi'an Aero– Engine as part of this consolidation, the listed company said in its 2011 annual report. "There is widespread consensus that engines have become a bottleneck constraining the development of China's aviation industry," the report said.

China tries building its own jet engine - The Globe and Mail

Well i don't read much about chinese engine developement but if chinese engine were so advanced then they should not have gone for russian engines even after claiming that the ws10 engine is much better than al-31 and it's upgraded version.Anyways idiot guys like you and several of your friends from sinodefence forum have created a false propoganda regarding chinese aviation sector where the simple fact is you can't even manufacture any plane without copying.Even the j20 is a copy of the old mig1.44 project.

 

[p2prada]

Any su-27, su-30MKK linked to chinese AEW&C?

You tell me.

This is not something we will ever know anyway.

We are working on integrating a multi-country system into one entity. Yours will be much more simpler.

Because the devil is in the details. What exactly was in the deal? Nobody is gonna give you strategic tech like materiale science and engines designs. We will just have to disagree on this one.

We are making the entire engine in India. 2010 was the year when the facility at Koraput made the first indigenous AL-31FP.

Why will they ToT on engines when you have to buy it from them in the first place? I have yet to see a source that says Russia will give India 5-gen engine tech. It is only your wild guess.

We need the ToT to manufacture the engine in India.

As for whether they will give it or not, yes they will. Sure I can't prove it. But they have no reason to not give it, especially if we are to make a lot of FGFAs in India, for our own forces as well as for export.

Russia itself has such a large requirement for PAKFA, they may not be able to deliver at the same pace as India can manufacture. This was the reason why Brahmos engine tech was also transferred to India. They couldn't produce at the volume that we needed. We are setting up two facilities in India for the engines while there is only one facility in Russia.

see your line of reasoning. However I think you are underestimate the resilience of their industry.They are in a bad shape, but they are not desperate yet. Their view is simple. They have tech that others including India wants. Giving full ToT will bring a new competitor in a distant future. Sellig finished engines on the other hand is more profitable. So it comes down to self-preservation. No matter how much you pay them it is NOWHERE near the amount of money they have spend. They DO not want India or any other country have that kind tech. This is a huge and profitable sector. They are not gonna let India have a slice of that. Period.

ToT may bring in a new competitor. But that competitor is going to come anyway. Also, they can't compete with existing competitors, what will they do sitting and stalling another competitor? Rather join hands with that competitor for the next 30 years until they start a new program. The sales volumes alone will help push the program, like the F-35 program.

2040 is too long a time. Their scientists will retire by then.

Jf-17 dont involve engine ToT.

Pakistan won't have the know how to absorb it anyway. Don't know why you brought it up.

Are you able to make your own engines? No? then it is not buyers market. No engines= No indian aircrafts. Period. YOu know it and they know ti.

That's why we will pay a lot.

The political situation is acceptable for it.

The EJ-200 is a 5th gen engine, the consortium was ready to hand over tech at the same level as the AL-31FP, as told by the British ambassador. Meaning a Deep ToT.

I will say both K-9 and LCA failed. They couldnt deliver what was promised.

Not exactly. I already told before. LCA simply exceeded the requirements for Kaveri. Kaveri has achieved the desired thrust levels. It simply cannot be used on LCA, instead it will be used in other programs. I think Kaveri has already finished around 30 test flights in Russia, using IL-76 as a test bed.

In a way we are lucky that we have access to a good choice of engines for other programs.

Boeing is to build a high altitude test facility as part of the C-17 offsets in India.

 

[ice berg]

Well i don't read much about chinese engine developement

Good that you admit your lies and ignorance.

but if chinese engine were so advanced then they should not have gone for russian engines even after claiming that the ws10 engine is much better than al-31

Who did? Source or you just talk out of your ase?

and it's upgraded version.Anyways idiot guys like you and several of your friends from sinodefence forum have created a false propoganda regarding chinese aviation sector where the simple fact is you can't even manufacture any plane without copying.Even the j20 is a copy of the old mig1.44 project.

J-20 is a copy of mig 1.44? ROFL now I know what kind idiot I am talking to. Another one in my ignore list. ROFL

 

[ice berg]

You tell me.

This is not something we will ever know anyway.

We are working on integrating a multi-country system into one entity. Yours will be much more simpler.

That depends on what the russian allows.

We are making the entire engine in India. 2010 was the year when the facility at Koraput made the first indigenous AL-31FP.

The infamous " from raw materials to finished product"?

We need the ToT to manufacture the engine in India.

As for whether they will give it or not, yes they will. Sure I can't prove it. But they have no reason to not give it, especially if we are to make a lot of FGFAs in India, for our own forces as well as for export.

Selling engines to India= money. Selling tech to India = one time sale. Notice the difference? Why give tech when you can sell finised products. And I am glad that you admit you cant prove it. At least an honest answer.

Russia itself has such a large requirement for PAKFA, they may not be able to deliver at the same pace as India can manufacture. This was the reason why Brahmos engine tech was also transferred to India. They couldn't produce at the volume that we needed. We are setting up two facilities in India for the engines while there is only one facility in Russia.

Dude, the old soviet and current Russia got decade of experiences in design, testing and manufacturing engines. Your manafacturing levels in engines are nowhere near them. Assembling is not the same thing. If they are unable to deliver it, then India wont be able to either. Period. Btw you got any source that Brahmos engine tech was transferred to India? And I dont think Brahmos and 5 gen. engine is the same thing. India payed for Brahmos, Russia delivered. They didnt want it in their army. Not the same as T-50 and PAKFA.

ToT may bring in a new competitor. But that competitor is going to come anyway. Also, they can't compete with existing competitors, what will they do sitting and stalling another competitor? Rather join hands with that competitor for the next 30 years until they start a new program. The sales volumes alone will help push the program, like the F-35 program.

No, no and no. There is no competitors coming like you said. There are only a handful of nations who can do it. Why? Industrial base, tons of money. experiences. experienced workers. All of them count. You tell me who is gonna take up the field against the likes of US, Russia, UK and France?
If you start now, yours will be obsolete before it starts. The game is rigged! They are not gonna give you a level playfield. And they have pretty much divided the market between them.

2040 is too long a time. Their scientists will retire by then.



Pakistan won't have the know how to absorb it anyway. Don't know why you brought it up.

Hu? when did I brought up Pakistan?

That's why we will pay a lot.

Dosnt matter. It is strategic tech. China got tons of money, did they manage to buy Russian SSNs? engines techs? Hell, did India manage to buy SSN techs from US, UK; France? Same thing. Strategic techs are not for sale. Period.

The political situation is acceptable for it.

The EJ-200 is a 5th gen engine, the consortium was ready to hand over tech at the same level as the AL-31FP, as told by the British ambassador. Meaning a Deep ToT.

Once again, the devil is in the details. What kind ToT?

Not exactly. I already told before. LCA simply exceeded the requirements for Kaveri. Kaveri has achieved the desired thrust levels. It simply cannot be used on LCA, instead it will be used in other programs. I think Kaveri has already finished around 30 test flights in Russia, using IL-76 as a test bed.

Kaveri achived the desired thrust levels? Source? When was it reached and what was the deadline? And what about the other requirements? reliability? engine life? Where is it today?

In a way we are lucky that we have access to a good choice of engines for other programs.

"other programs" are still pending. It is obsolete now and will be even more so when your" other programs" come to fruit, if it comes that far at all.
I have my doubts. High ambitions is never the problem. To deliver it timely is.

Boeing is to build a high altitude test facility as part of the C-17 offsets in India.

Good, but hardly got anything to do with design and manufacturing of engines that we are talking about.

 

[Armand2REP]

@ice berg, your 3rd gen definition is correct.

 

[afako]

Good, but hardly got anything to do with design and manufacturing of engines that we are talking about.

Does China have SCB, FADEC Tech?

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

J-20 is a copy of mig 1.44? ROFL now I know what kind idiot I am talking to. Another one in my ignore list. ROFL

You are the biggest foul i have seen in this forum.You may dream about the progess of chinese aero-engine technology but keep your such dreams to your bathroom and don't pollute this forum.

 

[p2prada]

That depends on what the russian allows.

Open source. Design your own stuff. You won't need the Russians if you want an AWACS picture in your Su-35. You will have greater difficulty getting an Irbis picture on other aircraft, but the Russians will allow it. Won't be a big deal.

The infamous " from raw materials to finished product"?

That's for the entire MKI. The deal was such that raw materials come from Russia for the production MKIs while spares can be manufactured using raw materials from Indian companies. HAL said there was really no difference there. Just following contractual obligations.

As for AL-31FP, they only said production has been indigenized and threw the number 100% along with it. Didn't explain anymore over that.

Selling engines to India= money. Selling tech to India = one time sale. Notice the difference? Why give tech when you can sell finised products. And I am glad that you admit you cant prove it. At least an honest answer.

Selling engines to India = One time sale. Selling tech to India = Royalty. Royalty is much more since it will include a partnership in the program.

They can't make these finished products anyway. If they want to keep up with the US and Russia they need a new project. Can you quickly google and check all the projects that US/India/Russia/China have in total and compare it to their own.

Dude, the old soviet and current Russia got decade of experiences in design, testing and manufacturing engines. Your manafacturing levels in engines are nowhere near them.

It is all about scale. France is delivering 8 Rafales a year to ALA. India wants twice that capacity.

Assembling is not the same thing. If they are unable to deliver it, then India wont be able to either.

We are not just assembling. I still don't think you understand. We are manufacturing. You won't see Russia supplying kits for the MKIs coming out of HAL for SB 180 to 240. That's the last 60 out of 140.

Period. Btw you got any source that Brahmos engine tech was transferred to India?

Very old news,
The Hindu : News / National : BATL set to make BrahMos engines
The BrahMos being an India-Russian joint venture, a transfer of technology agreement would soon be signed between the appropriate authorities of the two sides to manufacture the engine in India.

At present, the BrahMos engines are produced at Orenburg in Russia. Besides the BATL, one more Indian company would be qualified to make the missile's engines, Mr. Pillai added.

And I dont think Brahmos and 5 gen. engine is the same thing. India payed for Brahmos, Russia delivered. They didnt want it in their army. Not the same as T-50 and PAKFA.

Are you kidding me? Do you know how many decades it would have take us to design and induct a RAMJET based missile. Like, never. And toay we are talking about designing SCRAMJET in India. That's JV.

China payed for Suburn, Russia delivered. India and Russia developed Brahmos and is being manufactured in India, right now. They are not the same. Or else we wouldn't have been lab testing SCRAMJET engines for Brahmos II in India right now.

Brahmos will be ordered for the Gorshkov class frigates. Their current ships cannot carry the Brahmos without making major modifications. So only new ships. And it has been quite sometime since the Russian Navy ordered new ships.

No, no and no. There is no competitors coming like you said. There are only a handful of nations who can do it. Why? Industrial base, tons of money. experiences. experienced workers. All of them count. You tell me who is gonna take up the field against the likes of US, Russia, UK and France?
If you start now, yours will be obsolete before it starts. The game is rigged! They are not gonna give you a level playfield. And they have pretty much divided the market between them.

You are still unable to understand that some players will soon be out of the playing field and need a JV to stay in it.

Okay, how about we wait for a tender to be released by GTRE instead of continuing this.

The same for news about Item 30.

Dosnt matter. It is strategic tech. China got tons of money, did they manage to buy Russian SSNs? engines techs? Hell, did India manage to buy SSN techs from US, UK; France? Same thing. Strategic techs are not for sale. Period.

SSNs have international treaty restrictions. The Russians still secretly helped developed Arihant.

Aircraft engines are outside any international treaties. So, no restrictions for us here.

Once again, the devil is in the details. What kind ToT?

We will never know now.

Kaveri achived the desired thrust levels? Source? When was it reached and what was the deadline? And what about the other requirements? reliability? engine life? Where is it today?

The Hindu : Sci-Tech / Technology : Kaveri engine to power fifth generation fighter aircraft
"In recent times, the engine has been able to produce thrust of 70-75 Kilo Newton but what the IAF and other stake-holders desire is power between 90—95 KN.

This is in the less denser air in Bangalore. It translates to 80 KN at sea level.

As for other requirements, we don't know yet. Actually we won't know for a long time, as is natural in engine development.