The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will see

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

Yeah, well, your view is typical of the malaise of the time and is unsupported by any facts. You predict failure because you yourself are risk-averse. As one American politician referred to people like you: "Pointy-headed professors who can't park their bicycles straight. Your motto is "it can't be done because I don't have the balls to try." And you insult my ancestors by calling them "moochers." You are an ass. They created jobs for scores of workers. What have you done?



Of course he does. He agrees with you because he also snipes from the sidelines of life and despises humanity.
The Americans usually have the "Belief in Just World(BJW)" where anyone can be expected to become a star based on hard work. The Europeans are exactly opposite believing that "luck plays a big role" and life is unfair and so we see over-inflated European governments. These beliefs feed into themselves to make people work hard in US and become lazy in Europe.

But the US story has seen some setbacks in the last few years. One, the BJW view is changing and many people are not keeping themselves updated about where to put in the hard work. Your grandfather did the right job for early 20th century, but no one expects to earn same life standard by doing it today. If your grandfather had migrated today, I am sure he would have been a smart computer geek or someone who would know how to put the IT to better use, or some other innovative idea.

As far as facts are concerned, the economic mobility in US has definitely gone down in the past few decades. But I do not want to reach any conclusions about how or why that happened.
 

Energon

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

Yeah, well, your view is typical of the malaise of the time and is unsupported by any facts. You predict failure because you yourself are risk-averse. As one American politician referred to people like you: "Pointy-headed professors who can't park their bicycles straight. Your motto is "it can't be done because I don't have the balls to try." And you insult my ancestors by calling them "moochers." You are an ass. They created jobs for scores of workers. What have you done?



Of course he does. He agrees with you because he also snipes from the sidelines of life and despises humanity.

Gymnasium (school) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thank you for entirely missing the point. Re read the post, it wasn't an insult to your grandparents (that would be utterly pointless). The point was that what your grandparents achieved in that era could not be done today; if they came today their opportunities would be highly limited and they would more than likely be forced into a lower socioeconomic group which we now collectively refer to as the moochers in spite of the fact that they would work just as hard if not harder than the "job creators" out there.

As far this maliase and "dont have balls" etc, oh please. This argument is so simplistic it doesn't even qualify as a valid point of discussion between adults and the fact that these simplistic black and white arguments have become the highlight of our national political debate is mind boggling. In case it wasn't clear, my prediction of failure is limited to the example you provided (that of an immigrant with limited education and no immediate access to capital) based on the current economic trends, not some supposed intrinsic quality of risk aversiveness or disdain for hard work or fortitude. Ironically I'm at the other end of that spectrum and while I have had to work extraordinarily hard to get where I am, I also realize that I was lucky enough to be born into a family that could provide me with opportunities that aren't available to a vast section of the general population.
 

Energon

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

Your position seems to be that the individual can accomplish nothing today, and must be dependent of the government for everything. I assume you voted for Obama.:pokerface:
Incorrect, my position is that only select individuals with access to certain resources can accomplish "anything they want" today, which was not the case before. This if you remember is the thesis of the documentary.

This is the reason why your grandparents could achieve what they did in that era but would not be able to replicate that success today. It's not that they would be less hard workinig or intelligent but rather because they would not be availed of key opportunities which use to enable a wide array of immigrants with empty pockets to quickly rise to the top. This observation is also the most likely explanation for the immense divergence in income levels between socioeconomic groups as seen in the the gallup poll data.

The classic scenario of destitute immigrants coming to Ellis Island and then using their ingenuity and hard work to become succesful is no longer true. The reason our immigrants are successful today is because our selective immigration policy screens for highly educated and motivated people, not because the society offers opportunities indiscriminately unlike in the past. And there are very specific reasons why this happens to be the case.

Again, this propensity to turn everything into a ludicrous black and white equation is asinine.
As per you, because I don't believe in the unlimited potential of individuals = endorsement of dependence upon the government= democrat = hates "freedom"
 
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Energon

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

The Americans usually have the "Belief in Just World(BJW)" where anyone can be expected to become a star based on hard work. The Europeans are exactly opposite believing that "luck plays a big role" and life is unfair and so we see over-inflated European governments. These beliefs feed into themselves to make people work hard in US and become lazy in Europe.

But the US story has seen some setbacks in the last few years. One, the BJW view is changing and many people are not keeping themselves updated about where to put in the hard work. Your grandfather did the right job for early 20th century, but no one expects to earn same life standard by doing it today. If your grandfather had migrated today, I am sure he would have been a smart computer geek or someone who would know how to put the IT to better use, or some other innovative idea.

As far as facts are concerned, the economic mobility in US has definitely gone down in the past few decades. But I do not want to reach any conclusions about how or why that happened.
I don't know anything about Europe so I can't comment, but in the case of the United States:

Yes, dispensation of justice is a very, very important American value and it is the breakdown of the legal system that is at the heart of the problem we face today. Our economic system is rigged, a small group of people make the rules that suit their own needs and then profit from it. It is a vicious cycle that has unleashed immense damage and played a central part in the economic bust. And as I said before, one only need look at the dearth of people who have actually been prosecuted and gone to prison for ripping off millions of people.

It is true that highly educated and brilliant computer geeks can still come to the United States and prosper. Most of these people are beneficiaries of the excellent higher education system (one of our best institutions). The system still has a high level of reward in the upper echelons of society.

But consider a few things:
1. High tech start ups receive a lot of attention (and rightly so), however its contribution toward the overall economy is very small also this sector doesn't necessarily create jobs. Also as a side note we are no longer the best nation for start ups, even tech start ups.


2. Only a very small fraction of people succeed in start up ventures. It doesn't mean the others are any less intelligent or motivated. As far as immigration is concerned our current system doesn't reward the vast bulk of foreign students who graduate from technology related programs. As Bill Gates has repeatedly said, we ought to attach a green card with their advanced diplomas. Everybody knows this, yet we have been unable to make this happen because there are far too many interest groups with way too much power who are able to derail this issue. On the other hand countries like Australia and Canada have amended their immigration policies and are increasingly benefiting from it.

3. The actual bulk of small businesses which have been the backbone of the American economy aren't high tech start ups. The fact of the matter is that the contribution of people like EG Wald's grandparents is much greater than high profile techies. Their industries are still relevant, and if the system was fair they could still prosper today like they did in their time, but that isn't the case.

I don't think you have to come upon the reasons for why this has happened yourself. A fair share of them are already known.
 
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Mad Indian

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

This is exactly why as per our current social values an executive who runs a large business into the ground is considered a far greater asset to the society than a special ed teacher or a nurse working at a county hospital.
Thats just non sense. An executive who runs his business to ground will be ruined for life unlike a nurse or a teacher who screws up in her job. Greater risk=greater profit- a basic principle.

Also. If you think the execs are over paid, why are the nurses or the teachers dint try becoming Execs instead? And if you were talking about the bailout of the businesses, that was a plan by Socialists- the Democrats. Trust me, thats how Socialism works in reality.

And How is a society where everyone is treated with mediocrity, regardless of work and talent, a great society anyway?

Trust me, the latter two work far, far harder than any executive even though they expect a fraction of the salary.
I can run in circles all day long without producing anything constructive to this world but that wont be considered a superior work in any way compared to a guy sitting in AC in a Technology park and designs a game.
 
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Mad Indian

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

They created jobs for scores of workers. What have you done?
What has any Socialist done to this world other than whine like lazy bums for that matter?

Capitalism and Income inequality for the win(No one can convince me that a Physician and a ward boy should get the same income and if thinking like that makes me evil , so be it. Atleast I know that I am living in the real world and not in some fairy tale :D)
 

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W.G.Ewald

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

I want to retract my statement about Messiah "liking" Energon's post. I don't think he hates humanity. He loves humanity. It's people he hates.
 

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

I want to retract my statement about Messiah "liking" Energon's post. I don't think he hates humanity. He loves humanity. It's people he hates.
Thats just Socialism by default !
 

HeinzGud

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

Your position seems to be that the individual can accomplish nothing today, and must be dependent of the government for everything. I assume you voted for Obama.:pokerface:
I think what Energon meant in his article is that the bigger congolmerates dominating the market and creating a monopoly their. IMO it's like the old monarcy system where people who are favoured rule the rest. What is your opinoin?
 
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HeinzGud

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

What has any Socialist done to this world other than whine like lazy bums for that matter?

Capitalism and Income inequality for the win(No one can convince me that a Physician and a ward boy should get the same income and if thinking like that makes me evil , so be it. Atleast I know that I am living in the real world and not in some fairy tale :D)
Socialism and helping some one move up the ladder is differnet concepts mate. It is indeed fair to a Physician to get far more than a ward boy. But what is really necessary is to make that ward boy become a Physician without any interfierance from aristrocrats.
 

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

I think what Energon meant in his article is that the bigger congolmerates dominating the market and creating a monopoly their. IMO it's like the old monarcy system where people who are favoured rule the rest. What is your opinoin?
Monarchy:dude:????


Capitalism is the closest thing to a free and fair society. The monarchy and monopoly are much more common in a socialist world than a free market world. Also I am pretty sure that USA has anti- monopoly measures. All the big talk about big firms crushing small ones is just a big fat lie. If what you said is true there won't be any new companies around and small businesses would cease to exist. For ex. No new software firms would have formed after wipro, tcs, infosys in India but that is not the case now is it?

Also I can't really understand why all the socies complain about rich children inheriting their parent's fortunes. I am pretty sure every one earns for his children not just the rich:rolleyes:
 

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

Socialism and helping some one move up the ladder is differnet concepts mate. It is indeed fair to a Physician to get far more than a ward boy. But what is really necessary is to make that ward boy become a Physician without any interfierance from aristrocrats.
You can sugar coat non sense in whatever way you want but that won't change the fact that socialism is non sense.

Socialism helps only the elites of the society and the lazy bums. Sure the poor children deserve a good education, but that can't come at the cost of the rich and the middle class. And there is nothing wrong with a child of mine enjoying a better schooling than a child of my classmate who wasted his time becoming a bum when I worked my ass off to reach the point I am in now. It is not "fair" on any level that my child for whom I am working my ass off should be given the same opportunity of some random street bums' kids who does not work , by using my money.

Also, it is a pretty big assumption to think that you can make a ward boy into a physician by giving him education. There is a reason a class produces toppers and averages....
 
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HeinzGud

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

You can sugar coat non sense in whatever way you want but that won't change the fact that socialism is non sense.
A little bit of socialism isn't wrong mate. As well as a little bit of democracy. Or else it will be a one flavour dish.

Socialism helps only the elites of the society and the lazy bums.
That is exactly what is happening at the top in USA IMO.

Sure the poor children deserve a good education, but that can't come at the cost of the rich and the middle class.
What is your opnion about how to give them a good education?


And there is nothing wrong with a child of mine enjoying a better schooling than a child of my classmate who wasted his time becoming a bum when I worked my ass off to reach the point I am in now. It is not "fair" on any level that my child for whom I am working my ass off should be given the same opportunity of some random street bums' kids who does not work , by using my money.
We are talking about the kid born into a family with low income not some person screwing his life up. It is not that kid's fault to born into a poor family. You may call it Karma. But then I have to ask you a question, why the hell you want justice for "Genociders" (according to you) in SL, if Karma is so powerful.

So I believe that even kids of poorest of poor should be granted atlesat a fair chance to suceed upto high school level.
 

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

IMO, In an ideal society free and quality Education, free and quality healthcare* and a level playing field to compete should be provided by the state to every one of its citizens. Beyond that if a person is still unable to survive the state should provide the bare minimum that he needs to sustain himself. That should be it nothing more and nothing less.

*- free healthcare should be revoked to those who choose to live an unhealthy lifestyle.
 

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

IMO, In an ideal society free and quality Education, free and quality healthcare* and a level playing field to compete should be provided by the state to every one of its citizens. Beyond that if a person is still unable to survive the state should provide the bare minimum that he needs to sustain himself. That should be it nothing more and nothing less.

*- free healthcare should be revoked to those who choose to live an unhealthy lifestyle.
Only problem is there is nothing "free" in this world:D

Also if socies want a better life for a lazy bum and his kids, they are free to donate even all of their assets to the lazy bums. Just stop asking US to believe in their fairy tale and stop forcing US to pay their crazy ideas.
 

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

A little bit of socialism isn't wrong mate. As well as a little bit of democracy. Or else it will be a one flavour dish.



That is exactly what is happening at the top in USA IMO.



What is your opnion about how to give them a good education?




We are talking about the kid born into a family with low income not some person screwing his life up. It is not that kid's fault to born into a poor family. You may call it Karma. But then I have to ask you a question, why the hell you want justice for "Genociders" (according to you) in SL, if Karma is so powerful.

So I believe that even kids of poorest of poor should be granted atlesat a fair chance to suceed upto high school level.
1. When we say 2+2=4 in capitalism and you say 2+2=6 as per socialism, we can't suddenly try to reach a point where 2+2=5(something of both right)

2. You can thank the big govt and their socialism for that. Just of curiosity, who do you think benefits from a big govn ? Rich or poor?

3. My grand father was not educated and was poor. But it dint stop him from educating my dad. Same goes for my maternal grand father. Long term problems need a long term solution. Not some hocus pocus with socialism.

Also despite all the lying out of ass regarding the condition of American poor by the leftist morons therer, why is that on average an American poor is much better off than the other more socialist countries?

4. If you want to bring up SL issue where you people destroyed my cousins, you can stop quoting me.
 

Phenom

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

Only problem is there is nothing "free" in this world:D
Obviously when I said free, I meant its free to the recipients and not to the entire society. Some one has to pay for all this and it would mostly be the Super Rich, Rich and the upper middle class.

Also if socies want a better life for a lazy bum and his kids, they are free to donate even all of their assets to the lazy bums. Just stop asking US to believe in their fairy tale and stop forcing US to pay their crazy ideas.
You think the poor people are poor because they are lazy bums :shocked:

Most poor people are poor because of reasons far beyond their control, A poor person may work twice as hard as a rich person, yet may never be able to lift his family out of poverty without external help. It is the duty of those who are rich to help those who are poor, that's how human societies have always been and always will be. Those at the top will always be taxed more and those at the bottom would always be receiving help, whether one likes it or not ;)
 

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

I think what Energon meant in his article is that the bigger congolmerates dominating the market and creating a monopoly their. IMO it's like the old monarcy system where people who are favoured rule the rest. What is your opinoin?
His thesis is another corollary to the idea that the individual will always be subordinate to the collective (Resistance is futile; you will be assimilated). My opinion is that the individual will always have more value than the many, and every individual can determine his fate.
 

Energon

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

His thesis is another corollary to the idea that the individual will always be subordinate to the collective (Resistance is futile; you will be assimilated). My opinion is that the individual will always have more value than the many, and every individual can determine his fate.
LOL this is what you "deduced" from my posts?

I have thus far made no mention of the role of government or its relationship with the individual or anything remotely referring to collectivism. Yet you seem to "identify" a series of parables that are entirely beyond the scope of what you read which you then use to create a narrative. My initial reaction would have been to call you out for pulling stuff out of your a$$. But sadly that's not what you're doing. Your statements are a series of direct copy/pastes from an intellectually hollow bank of rhetorical idioms concocted by Republican electoral strategists of late.

You have entirely missed the point of this whole discussion. This is not a defense of governmental dependence or socialistic principles or anything related to it. Furthermore the argument is in the favor of individual empowerment. Just reciting a set of catch phrases with the word "liberty" and "individual" doesn't mean anything.

Here's the point of this entire topic: Individuals are important, the success of this economy and society was engineered by creating an environment which empowered the individual. However this is not what happens today, this fundamental principle has been violated through a series of actions and this entire topic pertains to what those actions are/were and the exact nature of their impact.

Your repeated proclamations about your belief of individual liberty and my supposed opposition to it is entirely out of context from the argument at hand.
 

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