The Mirage-2000 vs MiG-29 debate finally ends!

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,015
The Zhuk ME has similar specs compared to RDY-2/3. However it is more in the range of APG-68 with an avg power of 1.2KW compared to RDY's 400W. RDY-2/3's ground mapping capabilities must be superior, but it is downgraded as compared to the ALA's version. I don't know about Zhuk ME's ground mapping capability.

The air to air capabilities seem to be similar along with 8 tracked, 4 engaged for RDY-2/3 and 10 tracked, 4 engaged for Zhuk ME.

Both radars are for upgrades and has nothing to do with current in service radars.
 

fulcrum

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2009
Messages
191
Likes
89
Country flag
Just found info on Mirage-2000's radar from my old bookmarks.

Mirage-2000H's Radar:
RDM (Radar Doppler Multimode) can operate in several air-to-air, air-to-ground, and air-to-sea modes, and is standard fit in export Mirage 2000s. The Fr350 million (£33 million) development has been company funded. The first 50 French Air Force air-defence Mirage 2000s will have RDM, but the remaining 150 will have the RDI interception radar. Although RDI design is frozen, this radar will not enter service until 1986. RDI is French Government funded, and 30 per cent of the work is performed by Electro-nique Serge Dassault (ESD).

In addition to the 200 air-defence Mirage 2000s, the French Air Force expects to buy about 50 deep-penetration 2000Ns. These will carry Aerospatiale ASMP medium-range nuclear-attack missiles, and will have ESD Antelope V terrain-following radars.

RDM performance has been proven by five proto¬types and three pre-production radars—the first flew in January 1980. In air-to-air configuration the pilot selects Doppler or non-Doppler modes according to clutter level. Search patterns are conical "super-search", vertical search, and boresight aiming. The first two use a ±60° search pattern in elevation, and elevation is controlled manually for bore-sight aiming.

Assuming a four-bar search pattern over 120° in azimuth, 90 per cent of 5m2 fighter-aircraft targets will be detected out to 50 n.m. in clear air, according to Thomson-CSF. If a single-bar search pattern is used and azimuthal scan is reduced to 30°, clear-air range extends to 60 n.m. In pulse-Doppler mode, used for looking down into ground clutter, the RDM's range is 20 n.m. with a 120° search pattern.

Thomson-CSF points out that RDM gives an instanta¬neous range readout as soon as a target is detected. A pre-acquisition track-while-scan phase follows target detection, until the target is 35 n.m. away. Lock-on must be achieved 10 n.m. from the target, but track-while-scan is not available at short range or in pulse-Doppler mode.

For air-to-ground operation, RDM provides a ground map 30° to either side of its centreline. The optional Doppler Beam Sharpening (DBS) unit operates on a sector about 25° wide. As well as being used for inertial-navigation update and for ground-target ranging, RDM has a terrain-avoidance mode in which two clearance planes are shown on the head-down display. Thomson-CSF says that RDM will detect a patrol boat at 60 n.m. with a 120° search pattern when used in anti-ship mode.

RDM's coherent travelling-wave-tube transmitter oper¬ates in the X-band. The roll-stabilised inverted-cassegrain antenna has a 655mm diameter and a 3-6° beam-width. The receiver uses digital pulse-compression at long range and constant false-alarm rate digital processing at medium and short ranges. The 245kg weight is distributed among ten line-replaceable units (LRUs), including optional DBS and continuous-wave illuminator units- the latter is for use with the Matra Super 530 air-to-air missile.

Each LRU has its own built-in test equipment, and can be replaced without wire connections or adjustments to the rest of the radar. Thomson quotes 13,000 direct man-hours to produce RDM, leaving out management time.
RDI and RDM installations are interchangeable but they have little in common electronically. RDI uses a higher pulse-repetition frequency for its dedicated interception role. Maximum clear-air range against a head-on fighter target is about 66 n.m., but the RDI's major performance improvement compared with RDM is when looking down. Here, range is between 18 n.m. and 50 n.m., depending on closing speed and degree of clutter.

RDI has taken three years longer to develop than RDM, mainly because of the small space available in the Mirage 2000. This has necessitated the introduction of more hybrid circuits in RDI, but the new, smaller RDI has beer flying since last autumn Thomson now has to validate the tests and get RDI into production.
rdm | french air | air force | 1983 | 0550 | Flight Archive

MiG-29's radar:
MiG-29B has N019EB Sapfir Radar which is the non-warsaw pact export variant of N019 radar(N019 is the full version radar with all the features which equipped the VVS). N019EA is the export variant for warsaw pact countries which bought the MiG-29B. EA lacked 1 mode, while EB also apart from lacking the above mentioned mode, also lacked ECCM features, downgraded processor and datalinking. Of the 80 MiG-29s which the IAF bought, 7 of them are MiG-29UB trainers which has no radar. 63 of them are MiG-29B categorized under Izdeliye 9.12B, which the NATO code-names Fulcrum-A. This variant was procured in 1987 and 1989 and has the N019EB Sapfir Radar. The other 10 MiG-29Bs are categorized under Izdeliye 9.13, which the NATO code-names as Fulcrum-C. This variant was procured in 1994 and has the newer N019ME Topaz radar.(MiG-29S has N019M and the MiG-29SE has the N019ME. N019ME is the slightly downgraded export variant of N019M. The E in the MiG-29SE, Zhuk-ME, N019EA, N019EB and N019ME, denotes Export).

N019EB has a detection range of 70km(79.5km for 5m2 target), and track range of 60(68.2km for 5m2 target) for 3m2 target in look up and can only engage 1 target at a time. N019ME had a detection range of 80km for a 3m2 target in look up(91km for 5m2 target) and can engage 2 targets at a time. The MiG-29B which locked on to 2 PAF F-16s during kargil had the Topaz radar.

MiG-29B (Soviet Union/Russia) - N019 Sapfir
MiG-29B (Poland etc..) - N019EA Sapfir
MiG-29B (India etc..) - N019EB Sapfir
MiG-29B (India, Bangladesh) - N019ME Topaz
MiG-29SE (Peru) - N019ME Topaz
MiG-29S (Russia) - N019M Topaz
MiG-29K (India) - Zhuk ME
MiG-29M/M2 (Syria) - Zhuk ME
MiG-29SMT/UPG (India) - Zhuk ME
MiG-29K (Russia) - Zhuk M




To sum it up...

BVR:
Mirage-2000H
RDM for 5m2 Target:
Max Detection range: 111.12km(60nm)
Max track range: ?
Max Lockon Range: 64.82km(35nm)
Assured lockon range: 18.52km(10nm)
Max targets tracked: ?
Max targets engaged: ?

Missiles:
Matra Super 530
Type: Semi-Active
Max Range: 37km


MiG-29B Izdeliye 9.12B
N019EB for 5m2 target
Max Detection range: 79.5km
Max track: 68.2
Max Lockon Range: ?
Max targets tracked: ?
Max targets engaged: 1

MiG-29B Izdeliye 9.13
N019M for 5m2 target
Max Detection range: 91km
Max track: ?
Max Lockon Range: ?
Max targets tracked: ?
Max targets engaged: 2

Missiles:
R-27R
Type: Semi-Active
Max Range: 80km




Close combat:
Sustained Turn rate and Instantaneous Turn rate, advantage MiG-29
Thrust to weight ratio, advantage MiG-29
MiG-29B has Helmet Mounted Sight. Mirage-2000H doesn't.
2× 30 mm Cannon with 125 rounds each for Mirage-2000H, & 1 X 30mm Cannon with 150 rounds for MiG-29B
R-73E with range 20km for MiG-29B and R.550 Magic with range of 15km for the Mirage-2000H

A point to note: The Range of RDM was taken from a press release while the ranges of N019EB and N019M is taken from the manual which got leaked. Manuals are more reliable than marketing press release or brochures.




After Upgrades...

MiG-29UPG
Zhuk-ME for 5m2 target
Max Detection range: 120km
Max track: ?
Max Lockon Range: ?
Max targets tracked: 10
Max targets engaged: 4
Zhuk-ME which is in the latest MiG-29K and MiG-29M/M2 can engage 4 targets at a time, and has a detection range of 120km for a 5m2 target in look up. So that's an advantage of 30km when compared with Topaz and 40km when compared with Sapfir.

Mirage-2000UPG
All the figures above are official figures except the RDY-2 figures. Can someone confirm these numbers below?
RDY-2 Radar for 5m2 target
Max Detection range: 105km
Max track: 80 km
Max Lockon Range: ?
Max targets tracked: 8
Max targets engaged: 4

Either the unofficial figures for RDY-2 radar are wrong or the press release for RDM is wrong. RDY-2 only has less than 4km advantage over RDM? Not to mention, the F-16 Block 52's radar too only has a 105km detection range against a 5m2 target. Getting 111km back in 1983 is unbelievable. Most probably RDM data is misreported. 111km/60nm most probably is the max range, and not for 5m2 target.
 
Last edited:

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,015
Mirage-2000UPG
All the figures above are official figures except the RDY-2 figures. Can someone confirm these numbers below?
RDY-2 Radar for 5m2 target
Max Detection range: 105km
Max track: 80 km
Max Lockon Range: ?
Max targets tracked: 8
Max targets engaged: 4

Either the unofficial figures for RDY-2 radar are wrong or the press release for RDM is wrong. RDY-2 only has less than 4km advantage over RDM? Not to mention, the F-16 Block 52's radar too only has a 105km detection range against a 5m2 target. Getting 111km back in 1983 is unbelievable. Most probably RDM data is misreported. 111km/60nm most probably is the max range, and not for 5m2 target.
It is more or less within the same ballpark. This is the figure given for Grifo radar with a 300W(RDY-2 = 400W) emitter for the JF-17. Zhuk ME has a 1.2KW emitter and has higher gain. So, it has greater range, nothing significantly different from RDY-2 in terms of modes and other capabilities. As long as Mig-29s serviceability rates are good, it will be a better air superiority fighter than Mirage-2000.
 

Armand2REP

CHINI EXPERT
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
13,811
Likes
6,734
Country flag
Who is getting RDY-2? RDY-3 tracks 24 with targeting for eight.
 

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,015

Armand2REP

CHINI EXPERT
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
13,811
Likes
6,734
Country flag
The RDY-3 is not the export version of the RDY-2. The RC-400 is the export name of the RDY-3... they are the same radar. The RDY-3 is a lighter version of the RDY-2 that can be fitted in smaller aircraft. Capabilities are the same.
 

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,015
Yeah. That's correct. The back end of the RDY-2 and 3 are the same though. Antenna sizes vary. I am not sure if power varies too, but very likely. RC-400 may not be enough for our requirements, perhaps a newer version of the RDY-2 may be made available to us. We will know for sure in a year or two.
 

ashdoc

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2010
Messages
2,980
Likes
3,682
Country flag
We don't know why the air force did not go for the follow on order for Mirage-2000. Instead they chose the Mig-29. I am not sure if they are interrelated though.
india chose the mig 29 because it was cheaper as the soviet union used to offer us fighter aircraft at cut rate prices---we had a special relationship with the soviets . mirage came at it's normal market price which was significantly higher .
 

AVERAGE INDIAN

EXORCIST
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
3,326
Likes
5,408
Country flag
now both fighters are upgraded it will be interesting to compare their newly acquired tech :thumb:
 

TheHurtLocker

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2017
Messages
272
Likes
806
Country flag
Guys, anyone with the scanned files of Vayu Aerospace and Defense Review Volume 14 Issue III from 1989 with the following contents
Mirage 2000 & MiG-29; Indian Peacekeeping Force; 19 Sqn in Sri Lanka; Sri Lanka Air Force; Hindustan Aero
Or does the OP have the images backed up?
 

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top