The globality Of Hinduism

Abhijat

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@sgarg , Sorry , Sir, if I have caused any hurt. :redface::redface:

But , still you haven't answered my question .

My , emotional burst, was because of the "misinformation" , and not on personal character. :namaste:

Please, do tell me your qualification in "Vedas" , are you a "Shastri" ?

Also, "studying/learning" , Vedanga / Vedas/ Upanishad , is humongous task in itself, so if their are some "interpretation" , by some "Indian" scholars(Both in Character & Heredity) , then it is treated as valid source of knowledge , until refuted by others.


P.s: I am asking your qualification , as to acquire more knowledge from you, don't take it otherwise.:namaste:
 
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sgarg

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@sgarg , Sorry , Sir, if I have caused any hurt. :redface::redface:

But , still you haven't answered my question .

My , emotional burst, was because of the "misinformation" , and not on personal character. :namaste:

Please, do tell me your qualification in "Vedas" , are you a "Shastri" ?

Also, "studying/learning" , Vedanga / Vedas/ Upanishad , is humongous task in itself, so if their are some "interpretation" , by some "Indian" scholars(Both in Character & Heredity) , then it is treated as valid source of knowledge , until refuted by others.


P.s: I am asking your qualification , as to acquire more knowledge from you, don't take it otherwise.:namaste:
I am not a "Shashtri". I am just a student. I hope that satisfies your curiosity. It takes more than a lifetime to study Vedas for an imperfect person like me.
 
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sgarg

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The problem is every guru thinks he is the sole guru and that is, for an uninitiated person like me, is so confusing.

I will be frank, I have been through all religions in various phases of my life, since I wanted to find peace, but sadly, I did not find it in any and so I have renounced religion per se.

Yet, I still search out of curiosity, if nothing else.

I am more of an existentialist, if indeed such an existence is there.

This debate on Hinduism in the Nation and the aggressive attitude that is prevalent in some sectors made me wonder if Hinduism was tranmogrifying into the rigidity and rules that characterise Abrhamic religions.

As I see Hindusim and its success in remaining relevant to this time, inspite of many assault which would have made it a dead phenomenon, is that is a freewheeling idea of existence, with no rules, dogmas, diktat, regimentation to curb the individual.

While you say there is no God in Vedas. Maybe so. But then you have to be a great soul to find solace by meditating into empty space.

For a common man, an icon is necessary to focus upon. Call it God or whatever. Muslims have the Ka'aba where they are expected to pay obeisance at least once in one's life time. The Christians have the Cross or the Statues.

And Hindus have the liberty, freedom and space to select the God of their Need. Now that is what is most satisfying since one's freedom, choice and liberty is not shackled by regimentation, rules, ritual and so on.

What is more important and expansive is that a Hindu has the choice to pray or not to pray and yet remain a Hindu. There is no mandatory Friday prayer or praying 5 times to be a good person, nor going to Church every Sunday to be declared a good person.

That, to my mind, is what has made Hinduism survive the rigours and rampage of time and history of onslaughts.
You get a right "guru" with immense good-luck and previous good "karma". Yes most gurus are false, that is, they do not have the knowledge themselves.
However my guru always tells to respect other gurus, even those who look false so obviously. We do not fight over religious matters. We only present our point of view.
 

Abhijat

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From what I have learnt till now , it seems a common and fundamental thing in all of literature is:

"TAT TVAM ASI"

The meaning of this saying is that the Self - in its original, pure, primordial state - is wholly or partially identifiable or identical with the Ultimate Reality that is the ground and origin of all phenomena.

Different interpretation , by , different Gurus, gave way to different schools of thought:

Major Vedantic schools offer different interpretations of the phrase:

Advaita - absolute equality of 'tat', the Ultimate Reality, Brahman, and 'tvam', the Self, Atman.

Shuddhadvaita - oneness in "essence" between 'tat' and individual self; but 'tat' is the whole and self is a part.

Vishishtadvaita - identity of individual self as a part of the whole which is 'tat', Brahman.

Dvaitadvaita - equal non-difference and difference between the individual self as a part of the whole which is 'tat'.

Dvaita of Madhvacharya - "Sa atmaa-tat tvam asi" in Sanskrit is actually "Sa atma-atat tvam asi" or "Atman, thou art not that". In refutation of Mayavada (Mayavada sata dushani), text 6, 'tat tvam asi" is translated as "you are a servant of the Supreme (Vishnu)"

Acintya Bheda Abheda - inconceivable oneness and difference between individual self as a part of the whole which is 'tat'.


Tat Tvam Asi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Abhijat

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How do you know - because somebody told you. The first thing in a religious and philosophical discussion is to be patient and respectful, even when you disagree.

I may be wrong but you have no right to call me "ignorant fool".

Are you sure and confident about what "Adi Sankaracharya" wrote or his words were modified later by somebody else.

You cannot be sure about Vedas without studying Vedas. Similarly you cannot be sure about Upanishad without studying Upanishad. Did you do that?

We do not discuss religious matters on emotions.
Please don't go into politics of "different school of thoughts".

Having said that, it is considered that even if we lost written text of Vedas, iff we can preserve our culture and Sanskrit language , we can again write them down , without any major changes.

So my understanding of Vedas are more from, observation and deduction , of our "Culture" , and , from reading some texts.

Also , please, provide validity of your statement in regards to, "Vedanta against Vedas".

If not, then kindly refute your statement .
 

sgarg

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@Abhijat, I am giving reply from a text provided by Guruji. I can send you a book if you want more.

Though at present, according to the views of the present saints, there is – Advaitwad, Vishisht Advaitwad, Dvaitwad but eternal knowledge of Vedas which emanates direct from God only preaches "Traitvad". In Traitwad, there exist three matters:

(1) God(Ishwar)

(2) Souls( Jeev)

(3) Prakriti(Prakriti)

God and souls are alive whereas Prakriti is non-alive matter.

Advaitwad was introduced 1,220 years ago by Shankaracharya. Vishisht Advaitwad about 935 years ago by Ramanujacharya and Dvaitwad was introduced about 809 years ago by Madhvacharya.

However, it will have to be considered deeply that Traitwad mentioned in Vedas is eternal as knowledge of Vedas emanates direct from God and not by any Rishi, Muni, Yogi, man, woman, saint, satguru etc. So Traitwad is not man made but it is God–made.

In the present scenario, certainly it has become a problem to define God so as to worship Him. In this connection, one thing is clear that God creates the universe so His creation cannot imagine or create its own God. God creates living beings' bodies wherein only human beings are entitled to worship God. The mind of human beings is made of Prakriti. So, mind is creation and human mind cannot make or imagine its own God.

Secondly, if a person goes to an unknown place where nobody knows him then it is necessary that the person will have to introduce himself there. Without his introduction none will be either able to know him or imagine/create his (person's) name, nature, qualities, identity etc., themselves. I mean to say that to know about the God, the above quoted two points are not applicable then WHO WILL KNOW THE GOD?

Answer is he whom the God, Himself makes able to know, he only can know the God. Now, question arises is there any provision where God introduces Himself and to whom? Answer is Yes, if an aspirant desires to know the God, strives hard in his path and studies all the religious books of the world then it would be revealed that the answer of the above two points (God is not imagined by anyone and not made known by any person) is given in Vedas for example Rigveda Mandal 10, Sukta 181 that in the beginning of every creation, the knowledge of four Vedas is originated in the heart of four Rishis by the God only wherein God Himself introduces Him. The said process is eternal and automatic.
 
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sgarg

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So my understanding of Vedas are more from, observation and deduction , of our "Culture" , and , from reading some texts.
Culture cannot be extrapolated to "dharm". "dharm" is constant while as culture can change.
Vedas must be learnt. You cannot observe it from culture. There are a lot of rituals and practices which are against Vedas. So how can you learn Vedas from so called culture.
 

Ray

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Where does culture emanate from?

I thought it was from the dharm.

Islamic culture is from the Quaran, the Sunnah and the Hadith.

Christian culture is from the Bible.

Hindu culture is from?
 

Khagesh

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Having said that, it is considered that even if we lost written text of Vedas, iff we can preserve our culture and Sanskrit language , we can again write them down , without any major changes.
Vedas were never written. What is written is not vedas. Vedas can only be practiced with the help of a guru, but practice you must alone. Guru's practice does not count towards your own merit (obviously).





Culture cannot be extrapolated to "dharm". "dharm" is constant while as culture can change.
I contest, my lord.

Only the 'Existence of Dharma' is a constant because Dharma is dependent on Satya.

Dharma itself can change and that is why we talk about Swadharma and Dik/Kaal Dharma. That is why Dharma Sankat arises in the first place.




On the separate matter of the Guru, here are my thoughts:

I have heard many a times how people mention that they cannot make progress because they don't have or are suspicious of available gurus. This is merely an excuse. To hold the progress hostage to a chicken and egg argument or in Hindi the Akal Badi ya Bhains argument. People who essentially do not want to start for whatever reason will always allow themselves to get caught in this.

Just the way you need a temporal guru to say a Trainer Pilot to help you learn flying and its mechanics you also need a guru to help you around the practice of Vedic Riks. However there is more to flying then just going about the routine of pushing this button or reading that display. Its no pilot who does not love flying in the first place and instead was interested in the Air Hostess or the world travel. And just as flying was attempted by a man without a human guru except his own wits and the help from the world around, in much the same way it makes little sense to keep oneself from even starting holding out the rationale of chicken and egg. There is a time honoured recognition of gurus in a non-temporal form also. The Guru Tatva. Guru itself is a quality. And only another quality of Shishya Tatva can identify it. The Shishya Tatva is Shradha. This is so because Learning itself is a quality/property and not a piece of paper called degree/certificate. Put the head inside the Okhali and you need not fear the Moosal.

Suryadev has acted as a guru. Lord Dattatreya had 24 non human gurus. Eklavya never needed a physical guru. His mother was his guru. Purush and Prakriti themselves are a guru. Why for would we say Hari Anant Hari Katha Ananta if it was not for the purpose of learning.

Let there be shradha and there will be a guru not far off.
 

sgarg

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@Ray, fish-eating is in Bengali culture where vegetarianism is in West UP culture. You can extrapolate this to say that since both are Hindus, so fish-eating and vegetarianism are both part of Hindu culture.

Vedas speak against eating meat of animals; so Vedic people were vegetarian. Following life as per Veda makes you Vedic.

"Hindu" is arbitrary term and anybody can be Hindu. I have not seen any accurate definition of Hindu so far.
 
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sgarg

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Vedas were never written. What is written is not vedas. Vedas can only be practiced with the help of a guru, but practice you must alone. Guru's practice does not count towards your own merit (obviously).

I contest, my lord.

Only the 'Existence of Dharma' is a constant because Dharma is dependent on Satya.

Dharma itself can change and that is why we talk about Swadharma and Dik/Kaal Dharma. That is why Dharma Sankat arises in the first place.

On the separate matter of the Guru, here are my thoughts:

I have heard many a times how people mention that they cannot make progress because they don't have or are suspicious of available gurus. This is merely an excuse. To hold the progress hostage to a chicken and egg argument or in Hindi the Akal Badi ya Bhains argument. People who essentially do not want to start for whatever reason will always allow themselves to get caught in this.

Just the way you need a temporal guru to say a Trainer Pilot to help you learn flying and its mechanics you also need a guru to help you around the practice of Vedic Riks. However there is more to flying then just going about the routine of pushing this button or reading that display. Its no pilot who does not love flying in the first place and instead was interested in the Air Hostess or the world travel. And just as flying was attempted by a man without a human guru except his own wits and the help from the world around, in much the same way it makes little sense to keep oneself from even starting holding out the rationale of chicken and egg. There is a time honoured recognition of gurus in a non-temporal form also. The Guru Tatva. Guru itself is a quality. And only another quality of Shishya Tatva can identify it. The Shishya Tatva is Shradha. This is so because Learning itself is a quality/property and not a piece of paper called degree/certificate. Put the head inside the Okhali and you need not fear the Moosal.

Suryadev has acted as a guru. Lord Dattatreya had 24 non human gurus. Eklavya never needed a physical guru. His mother was his guru. Purush and Prakriti themselves are a guru. Why for would we say Hari Anant Hari Katha Ananta if it was not for the purpose of learning.

Let there be shradha and there will be a guru not far off.
An able and "gyani" guru is rare, so finding him/her cannot be easy.
"shraddha" is "shat"+"dha" - means practicing truth. "shraddha" does not mean singing bhajan.
Yes desire drives humans. If you have strong desire to find a guru, you will have much greater likelihood. However past good/bad deeds always come in the way and it may take several lifetimes to get to your goal.

"dharm" is known only after studying Veda. So you either study yourself or ask somebody who has studied. I do not think there are several types of "dharm" to be practiced differently at different times. Veda defines all aspects of human behaviour. The codified form in simpler Sanskrit is given in Manu-Smriti. However several versions of Manu-smriti are corrupted versions. Please use the purified Manu Smriti as published by Arya Samaj.
 

Khagesh

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Desire/Yearning to have the right guru has been spoken of by many especially in the Bhakti side. In that respect I again carry a doubt. If desires could force a result then we all would become Swayambhu in our physical corporeal existence. Desires only cause frustration in the extreme and imbalance in the least. The whole practice of yagyan is about not holding on, a practice well recognized subsequently in Patanjali's yoga.

Shradha is more of a bet then a practice, in that respect. Or even a practice of betting. A bet or betting process that gives an/series of unpredictable results and then the accumulated experience of results leave us wiser somewhat. But you cannot keep practicing without accumulating anything. You role you gather moss, simple deal. You don't want to gather moss then don't roll.
 

sgarg

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Desire/Yearning to have the right guru has been spoken of by many especially in the Bhakti side. In that respect I again carry a doubt. If desires could force a result then we all would become Swayambhu in our physical corporeal existence. Desires only cause frustration in the extreme and imbalance in the least. The whole practice of yagyan is about not holding on, a practice well recognized subsequently in Patanjali's yoga.

Shradha is more of a bet then a practice, in that respect. Or even a practice of betting. A bet or betting process that gives an/series of unpredictable results and then the accumulated experience of results leave us wiser somewhat. But you cannot keep practicing without accumulating anything. You role you gather moss, simple deal. You don't want to gather moss then don't roll.
Knowledge of Veda is the base. Nothing is possible until knowledge of Veda is obtained. There is no benefit from sitting in temple and singing bhajan. Vedic system includes "agnihotra" twice a day, meditation early in the morning, yoga twice a day etc.

I am not sure what "bhakti" means for you? Vedic system includes service for Guru and for public also. Carrying out wishes of Guru is the most important service.

"shraddha" is practicing truth - or doing which you have learned to be correct on the basis of study of Veda. Veda defines what is correct and what is not.

desire is two kinds - pious desire and carnal desire. Pious desire is what a human needs for spiritual progress.
 
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mayankkrishna

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Its said that the documented Vedas what we have today are the texts which are just 10% of the original volumes practised in Vedic times. But as said, Original Vedic culture was an oral culture. Disciples recited the preachings of their Guru, and practised them in their gurukuls. The test of their capabilities were also conducted orally.

One of the meanings of Vedas as quoted in some texts are 'Shruti', which essentially means, gain of experience. What we understand from our experience are 'Smriti' and what we codify the practice of our lifes are called shastras. Therefore Shruti, Smriti and Shastras are basically the theme under which all the literatures are compiled.

This can be the reason why we find such a vast compilations from different walk of life and culture existing in India and written over different periods. Probably this also explains why our culture can emulate fascists on one face, and preach 'Vasudaiva Kutumbhkam' on the other. It preaches practice of total abstinence from flesh eating while Aghoris can devour human corpses and still worship our same gods and practice same tenets.

All this may also be explained by another meaning of Vedas that 'whatever we speak' are all also Vedas. Vedas are in contnuum, they are truth. It has never born and will never die. They are not in the past and will not born in future. They are omnipresent. Wars are Vedas, Politics are also Vedas....

Cheers !!
 

Khagesh

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Knowledge of Veda is the base. Nothing is possible until knowledge of Veda is obtained. There is no benefit from sitting in temple and singing bhajan. Vedic system includes "agnihotra" twice a day, meditation early in the morning, yoga twice a day etc.

I am not sure what "bhakti" means for you? Vedic system includes service for Guru and for public also. Carrying out wishes of Guru is the most important service.

"shraddha" is practicing truth - or doing which you have learned to be correct on the basis of study of Veda. Veda defines what is correct and what is not.

Highlighted part contested again.

If nothing is possible until the knowledge of Vedas is obtained,

Then inference can safely be derived that even the possibility of deriving "benefit from sitting in temple and singing bhajan" is allowed by the Veda itself. Reason being that such practices are entirely possible and they may result in benefits.

Furthermore because knowledge of Vedas is an absolute requirement (to achieve anything), so even if we disregard the expectations of benefit from the practice of "sitting in temple and singing bhajan" these practices would still remain/become infiltrated by the same knowledge, sooner rather than later.

Between a Guru and Shishya practicing Vedic karma-kand there is a perfect existence of perfect knowledge but that perfection does not remain bound only at that stage.

If the knowledge and its perfection were to become so bound then the karma-kands that were designed for the benefit the world would also become useless since it makes no sense to be involved in a karma-kand the benefit of which is directed towards those who, as you say are 'merely sitting in temple and singing bhajan' and which you claim is 'useless'. Since we cannot ascribe contradiction to the Vedas themselves so we must conclude that even "sitting in temple and singing bhajan" has its own benefits which are completely dependent on the same entity/body of knowledge that enabled achievement/maintenance of perfect knowledge among a practicing Guru and a practicing Shishya.



desire is two kinds - pious desire and carnal desire. Pious desire is what a human needs for spiritual progress.
Contested again.

There are no such things as 'Pious desire' and 'Carnal desire'. At least not in any applicable way. A system of classification has no bearing on the existence of the thing classified or the application of the thing classified.

All progress gets hindered by hanging on to desires, regardless of classification. Desires themselves may be based on the underlying truth or they may be based on an aspect of the underlying truth. Both kinds of basing will lead to their own kinds of ends. All kinds of ends being desirable because first will directly force a burning away of accumulated desires and second will force accumulation of desires till a stage is reached where a burning away of the desires becomes a necessity.
 
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sgarg

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Its said that the documented Vedas what we have today are the texts which are just 10% of the original volumes practised in Vedic times. But as said, Original Vedic culture was an oral culture. Disciples recited the preachings of their Guru, and practised them in their gurukuls. The test of their capabilities were also conducted orally.

One of the meanings of Vedas as quoted in some texts are 'Shruti', which essentially means, gain of experience. What we understand from our experience are 'Smriti' and what we codify the practice of our lifes are called shastras. Therefore Shruti, Smriti and Shastras are basically the theme under which all the literatures are compiled.

This can be the reason why we find such a vast compilations from different walk of life and culture existing in India and written over different periods. Probably this also explains why our culture can emulate fascists on one face, and preach 'Vasudaiva Kutumbhkam' on the other. It preaches practice of total abstinence from flesh eating while Aghoris can devour human corpses and still worship our same gods and practice same tenets.

All this may also be explained by another meaning of Vedas that 'whatever we speak' are all also Vedas. Vedas are in contnuum, they are truth. It has never born and will never die. They are not in the past and will not born in future. They are omnipresent. Wars are Vedas, Politics are also Vedas....

Cheers !!
No Vedas are complete. The written down version is same as the oral version.

The Vedic culture used Sanskrit which was spoken as well as written. The Vedas were written down in book form in Vedic culture only just before Mahabharat war by Vyaas Muni.

The oral transfer of Vedas also continued despite writing in book form.

"shruti" means "what is heard". This name was given to Veda because it was memorized and transferred from guru to shishya via oral teaching.

South Asia is a big land-mass and we should not assume that the entire population was Vedic at any given time. It is reasonable to assume that Vedic and non-Vedic people existed side by side. So there must be other beliefs also. When Vedic beliefs declined in society, other beliefs became more prominent.

We cannot lump everything seen in India under Vedic beliefs.
 

Khagesh

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Contesting again.

Written forms of anything are not in anyway different from memorized form of anything. Both are susceptible to corruption and interpretation and that too with ever increasing disorder.

Only a practice remains outside any possibility of corruption and even provides for a subsequent correction of corruptions that accumulate over time.

Practice and memorization are two completely different things since Practice will eventually lead to memorization. Reverse may or may not be true and actually brings into play the interference of desires.

In fact the argument that the practiced veda and the written down veda are replaceable is a pernicious idea that is very much used by the foreigners today and will in future be used to fool the Hindus

Rigveda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The original text (as authored by the Rishis) is close to but not identical to the extant Samhitapatha, but metrical and other observations allow to reconstruct (in part at least) the original text from the extant one, as printed in the Harvard Oriental Series, vol. 50 (1994).17

17 B. van Nooten and G. Holland, Rig Veda. A metrically restored text. Cambridge: Harvard Oriental Series 1994
These people want to bring their own theories into currency - philology, liguistics etc. Hence there stand.
 

sgarg

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@Khagesh, there is a system of memorization. The number of verses in each Veda is fixed. The memory of ancient Arya were so good that they could memorize the whole Veda. This is very difficult to understand for us living with corrupted brains eating polluted food.

Your questions can be answered but direct interaction is needed.

My best wishes for you. Asking questions is good. Having doubts is good. Eventually you will get the answers from within self if you keep on effort to discover.
 
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