The French style of Russian weapons

Discussion in 'Military History' started by Akim, Jul 15, 2012.

  1. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    French army always was considered a standard for an imitation. Between Russia and France practically there always were good relations in a military sphere. It is possible to consider Zaporizhzhya Cossacksthe first foreign legion, which involved in wars on the side of Frenches in 16-17 century, long before Swiss pikemen
    In general a political-military union was folded between countriesa long ago. Yet when in 1051 Ann Anne of Kiev daughter Yaroslav the Wise became the queen of France.
    Practically in all Russians war there were french advisers.
    Truly french military science disembogued in Russian in the middle of 18 century. A french weapon and battle construction sets to basis.

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    French field-gun of 1806 year
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    Russian field-gun 1809 year
    The Russian officers carried a form on a french manner and all to perfection know French.
    A future emperor of France is Corsican lieutenant Bonaparte Napoleon, wanted to become the captain of the Russian army at the end of 18 century.
    After the French revolutions of 1789, family-blood connections were lost and France in 19 century two times was at war with Russia.
    That unscrewed for a long time a military collaboration (it was restored in 20 century) and alternated the purchase of the American weapon and development of the Belgian standards.
    It is necessary note that the Russian weapon was not a copy, and developed on the basis of the French standards with the use of the innovations.
    So in taken for example of french to the quick--fire cannon (1897)
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    it was practically all systems are changed, appeared as a result the Russian field-gun (1902)
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    Armored Car Sharon (1905)
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    Armored Car Sharron - Nakashidze (1906).Replaced installation turret, improved visibility, reinforced by armor. Set the domestic engine.
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    The Russian helmet consisted of two parts (French from three) and the metal thickness was increased to 1 mm., without the change of weight.
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    to be continued…
     
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  3. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Armored Car Renault put from France in 1915, passed a surbooking and replacement of armament.
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    Armored Car Mgebrov- Renault
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    Fighter Nieuport 11 (1916)
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    Fighter Sikorski (1916). Airplane by a equipped with a French motor "Gnome" and by the synchronous machine gun of domestic development
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    The standard light machine gun Shosha (1915) in the hands of a French soldier
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    Soviet modernization of machine gun (1923 year, on the right). Added tripod, an armored shield. A magazine is megascopic twice. Changed the spring.
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    French light tank FT-17
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    First soviet tank Renault-Russian(1920). Done on the original of tank, trapped in April, 1919 in fights with whiteguards. Set other cannon, engine from the truck FIAT, it is increased on the 2 mm armor. In all there was produced 15 copies.
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    to be continued..
     
  4. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Perhaps shed some light on the Russian aviation engineers who were trained in France?
     
  5. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    This can devote a separate theme, but I will try to lay out information here in 4 part, because Russian (Soviet) school of aviation has been connected with the french to 30th of the last century (1906-1936). (3 part will be about a period between world wars).
     
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  6. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Part 3/1
    After revolution and civil war Russia was abandoned by the great number of professional serviceman and engineers. Most military settled in France and engineers left to America. In 20th Soviet Russia actively collaborated with Weimar Germany, however she was interested by the front-rank ideas of other countries. In particular in France these were heavy tanks, bombers, fighters, artillery, armored cars, large- machine guns This was already not modernization or replicas, as it was in 1906-1925, but fully independent developments on the basis of french standards.
    Official the relations USSR and France set on October, 28, 1924, but an economic relation remained only at the level of trade. Greater part of technical documentation and drafts of obtained with by the Russian emigrants.
    So the heavy tank of Char 2C became the prototype of heavy soviet tank of Т- 35. As well as at a french tank they had the proper names and both types of machines a sorrowful fate waited in WW2.
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    French aviation in the moment of beginning of war was front-rank and exemplified for creation of similar samples. So under influence of design of bomber of LeO 45 (1937) the soviet bomber of DB- 4(1940) was created. These were absolutely two different airplanes, but they were united by a general view.

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    In a fighter aircraft it is possible to name two alike and after a design and after basic battle descriptions of D.520 (1938) and soviet Yak- 1 (1940). Technically airplanes differed from each other in favor of Yak- 1, but in aviating were very alike. Therefore franch pilots of regiment "Normandy-Neman" preferred the nimble aircraft Yakovleva to more powerful and the best airplanes of La- 5(7)
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    to be continued..
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  7. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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  8. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Unfortunately, in English-language editions not quite faithful information. Therefore I and give additional texts. All in respect of work of Sikorsky in Kyiv and in tsar's Russia it requires a correction. In my country now there is not «ideology closed», we acknowledge the errors and achievements. Also achievements of other countries and them to help of Russia to 1917 and the USSR later. I do not have a moral right, to talk about achievements of modern Russia, but when UkrSSR was in composition the USSR or Russian empire, allow me to write about achievements the Russian people of that period.
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    Igor Sikorsky engaged in plenty of projects of airplanes in Russia. I simply before gave a picture what you noticed likeness of style, but there are photos.
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  9. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
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  10. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Akim, I sent you a private message. Please check your inbox and respond. Thanks!
     
  11. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    It is only natural Russia would imitate France as do many others as she is responsible for many military inventions.
     
  12. vikaskumar11233

    vikaskumar11233 Tihar Jail Banned

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    Good piece of information.I think Russia has done many inventions in military and they are still doing it.If this is the case of just imitation then i think every nation has done some imitation of the weapons.
     
  13. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    It is a not imitation or clonals. Simply at different times there are groups of countries which are the legislators of military fashion, and other countries push off exactly from their developments. At different times this was Great Britain, Germany, France, USSR and USA. At each of these countries the scientific school and the branches of development of basic world standards of weapon go from them.
     
  14. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Part 3/2
    French engineers first in the world put the artillery of large caliber on caterpillar undercarriages.
    The howitzer of М280 got development in the soviet heavy artillery BR of caliber (203, 280, 302 mm)
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    The armored cars Schneider were inventedon the branch of firm as early as tsar's Russia. Improved and upgraded is accepted on the armament of France in 1932.
    Created BA- 6(10) on the same templates which remained in Russia. Caterpillar prop, complicative drive a heavy machine, replaced on a wheeled undercarriage. Principle of placing of tank turret in the armored car remained alike.
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    Experienced French Hotchkiss heavy machine guns appeared in Russia in 1917. For a year before what in France. Because they were created in the Russian branch of firm.
    After revolution, a soviet command estimated a heavy machine gun. as battle unit of and gave an order to create a domestic standard. But «internal war» and devastation did not allow to begin planning of similar standard. Only in 1931 the machine gun DK was accepted on an armament.
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    13.2-mm Hotchkiss heavy machine-guns (1930)
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    12,7-мм heavy machine-guns DK (1932)

    After WW1 french generals prepared to next defensive war, spending millions of francs on creation of "Maginot line"(1929). Soviet Union in the middle of 30th also created similar "Stalin line"(1932). Both systems of fortification building showed that these were the facilities used up to no purpose.
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    Long-term fire point ("Maginot line")
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    Long-term fire point ("Stalin line")
    to be continued…
     
  15. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    Such pill boxes, still over run by attacker ... No wonder the mass has its uses in war ... momentum of mass.... India can learn some thing as there is no dearth of numbers..... to overwhelm our neighbours. China did it with us in 1962 ... plain numbers.

    India can easily do it by militarisation of CPOs...

    USA was so sh** scared of Soviet numbers !!
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  16. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    A bit distracted from a theme. I will answer a question about the Russian engineers which to studied aircraft building in France.
    Attempts to create vehicles heavier than air of was undertaken by all anchorwomen then by countries yet from the end of 19 century. It was not in this exception and Russia. But of setting heavy steam engines of or weak electromotors ended with a failure.
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    Aircraft Mozhaisky (1887)

    Only successful experiment of Wright Brothers, allowed to heave up an airplane.
    The point is that tsar's guidance of Russia to the skeptically belonged to aircraft construction. It considered him a simply expensive toy (a similar example was in 20th 19 centuries with per rail in Russia). Absolute monarchies always go against progress. In France seriously began a to examine airplane as new type of transport.
    In those times a pilot and designer were a the same man. Only they could take chance to heave up the "bookcase" in air. Therefore all Russian pilots which was taught in France were engineers.
    the first Russian airman сал Mikhail Efimov .He got technical education in Odesa and 1909 left a year to France, goes to school of Аnri Farman. After completion 1910 served as a year a military instructor in Sevastopol. In 1911 the first in the world carried out bombing of from an airplane. There is a developmen device of motor self - starting in 1912. Worked out a two - engined biplane in 1915. Drafts of which were sold out by the Military department to England.
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    He supported revolution of 1917. For what was twice sentenced to shooting . He was killed in the back of August, 11 1919, when suggested to release and fired off after.
    Alexander Kudashev - there was professor Kyiv of university. Together with Efimov was student at Аnri Farman.
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    In 1910 built the first Russian airplane of "Kudashev-1". A glider was own development, and an engine was french "Anzany" 35hp.
    Perished on WW1 in 1917.
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    Igor Sikorski,also studied in France.
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    At the end of 1910 being a student in Kyiv of participates in development of airplane of "BiS-2"
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    It is necessary to mark that not all airengineers studied in France. Yakov Gakkel finished the Petersburg electrical engineering institute, but independently worked out the airplanes which were levelly with world standards.
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    In Russia there were many talented engineers and those who studied in France and those who acquired knowledge of home. It can devote a separate stream.
     
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  17. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    After completion of WW2, France more than on 15 years left off to be the basic legislator of military fashion, yielding this place in the USA . After speech of Churchill in Fulton and beginning of Cold War military-technical collaboration of the USSR and republic of France were interrupted more than on 40 years. Even, when in the USSR built the plant of VAZ (1967) from political grievance, a soviet government gave preference more old Fiat 124 what modern Renault- 16.
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    Perhaps, interesting french developments for soviet engineers it was been llight tank of АМХ- 13 (1952), in which the stood primitive automat of loading and was stopped up principle of the "uninhabited turret".
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    Is-7 (1949)
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    Object 477 (1987)

    SS - 10 ATGM(1956), which Frenches did on the basis of German Ruhrstahl X – 7 (1945).
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    AT-1 Snapper USSR (1957)
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  18. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    It is true that the USSR built the Lada-Zhiguli plant at Togliatti, with tooling from Fiat of Italy, where they made the VAZ-2101, thay did not completely cut off cooperation with the French. In fact, the Moskvitch 2141 'Aleko' was designed by Soviet and French aircraft and space engineers.

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    Moskvitch 2141 'Aleko'
     
  19. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    The Soviet 9K11 Malyutka has a striking resemblance to the French SS.10. Not sure whether they are related, but the last picture by Akim above looks like the Malyutka.
     
  20. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    The types ATGM of a 1 generation take beginning Ве from German ATGM Ruhrstahl X – 7 developed out in by the fascist of Germany. Simply French applied these АТ the first.
     
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  21. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Not quite so, French did not accept in this development. But for her served an example french car Simca 1307GLS.
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    The car Aleko turned out not successful.
     

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