The enemy of my enemy is my friend! Is this true in case of India?

tramp

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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend ! Is this true in case of India

Maybe overall strategic thinking would dictate closer India-US ties. But there are so many recent instances when Americans have pursued short-term interests, nettling India once too often.

Containing China & ensuring security of sea-lanes (SLOC's) & freedom of navigation across Indian Ocean (from Persian Gulf to Straits of Malacca & maybe, Yellow Sea, South China Sea, as well).

Source: My previous post in this thread.

P.S. You liked my post without even reading it.
 

Free Karma

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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend ! Is this true in case of India

I think the old saying that nations have no permanent friends or enemies, only interests is perfect.

It's always about whats good for the nation and never about friends. Even in the case of soviet union which helped us a lot, it was about trying to get us onto their side

Every relationship has it's ups and down sides,,(even with with China we have some cooperation in international affairs like voting in the UN, WTO trade etc, and we also have quite a few issues with a "frenemy" the U.S) the important part about this is to balance them out, and use them to your advantage.
Ultimately in todays world things are so complex that it's hard to count on "solid" support from anyone in case things start to get hot (specifically wrt to border disputes) So the ability to stand up for ourselves, and not count on others, is really important (a lot of people buy this strategic partnership and think the U.S will help us...).

WRT to the U.S specifically I dont see them as even remotely friendly or having good intentions, because of their relationship with Bakis, and just the sheer amount of mistrust between both sides, they also seem to have a problem with Indians in general, and constantly demonize us through what could only be called as propaganda., in many cases seek to fuel hatred between people through castes,religion, shadow/openly support secessionist movements like the khalistanis, movements in the north east, support for radical movements in the region like Jamaat in B'desh. Nope that relation very much a business relationship, with some interest in terms of defence (again mainly money), but ultimately it looks like we are seen as a threat by them.
 
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feathers

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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend ! Is this true in case of India

All the regional and international powers one way or another way are trying to get Indian nation along with them because the decision made by the Indian nation would matters the most. Here we have reached that position where we can decide our future and destiny.

Bharata-bhagya-vidhata
Dispenser of India's destiny.
 

kseeker

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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend ! Is this true in case of India

P.S. You liked my post without even reading it.
Believe me, I read your post completely.

My point was specific to Amreeka's interest on Pakistan. When it comes to Pakistan, Amreeka and India do not have common goal.
 

jmj_overlord

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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend ! Is this true in case of India

All the regional and international powers one way or another way are trying to get Indian nation along with them because the decision made by the Indian nation would matters the most. Here we have reached that position where we can decide our future and destiny.
but we won't....our gov seems to be following what US, brits or any western nations say. Only during the recently it seems our govt has shown some spine to stand upto countries like US or Italy (election effect). But with our govt in it's present state, it seems we cannot be like chinese or russians major power players to take important decisions in international affairs.......
 

feathers

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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend ! Is this true in case of India

but we won't....our gov seems to be following what US, brits or any western nations say. Only during the recently it seems our govt has shown some spine to stand upto countries like US or Italy (election effect). But with our govt in it's present state, it seems we cannot be like chinese or russians major power players to take important decisions in international affairs.......
Foreign policy is made by keeping national interest and regional issues and no country in this era can start open hostility against India. We as nation respect all the other nations and this is the reason that all the countries are having open channels with us . Can you name one power with whom we are not having relations ? India's neutrality is keeping balance in the region. This neutrality is not there because Indians are afraid of anyone.
 

Phantom

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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend ! Is this true in case of India

India is best served by identifying her interests first and then pursuing them relentlessly. I say this because IMO, some of our foreign policy decisions indicate a deficiency in understanding what our core interests are. Ex: Are our interests served by having good relations with Sri Lanka or by helping a Tamil insurgency against them? Our flip-flops show that we are unsure of the answer to such questions.

I believe that Pakistan is the only true enemy of India. The Chinese have shown enough maturity to indicate that they're ok with freezing the status-quo along our borders and work towards greater trade relations. But Pakistan, being the suicidal loose cannon that it is, presents a very real threat of inevitable conflict.

What are in India's best interests w.r.t Pakistan? Will installing a friendly regime work? No, IMO. Will splintering the Nation work? Perhaps.
Question is, what conclusions have our Policy planners come to, and what are they doing about it?
 
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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend ! Is this true in case of India

India is best served by identifying her interests first and then pursuing them relentlessly. I say this because IMO, some of our foreign policy decisions indicate a deficiency in understanding what our core interests are. Ex: Are our interests served by having good relations with Sri Lanka or by helping a Tamil insurgency against them? Our flip-flops show that we are unsure of the answer to such questions.

I believe that Pakistan is the only true enemy of India. The Chinese have shown enough maturity to indicate that they're ok with freezing the status-quo along our borders and work towards greater trade relations. But Pakistan, being the suicidal loose cannon that it is, presents a very real threat of inevitable conflict.

What are in India's best interests w.r.t Pakistan? Will installing a friendly regime work? No, IMO. Will splintering the Nation work? Perhaps.
Question is, what conclusions have our Policy planners come to, and what are they doing about it?
For pakistan we can build up afghanistan
 

Phantom

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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend ! Is this true in case of India

For pakistan we can build up afghanistan
I would like India to 'bleed them with a 1000 cuts'. For all the Hurr-Durr that Pakistan does in accusing India of supporting insurgencies in Balochistan, India has actually stopped it long back. Why this change in focus every time the Government changes in New Delhi?

And yes, India should henceforth deny any strategic advantage to Pakistan inside Afghanistan.
 

pkroyal

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Do we (India) have real friends in this world in the first place ? or it's just a time and opportunity which defines Friends ?

We all are aware in Geo Politics there are no permanent friends or no permanent enemies only permanent interests ( National)

Since Politics makes strange bedfellows ,extreme contradictions in this kind of friendship can be observed.

Only way is to be strong militarily/ economically and be treated as an equal on the high table, with respect & not wallow in self pity.

Enlightened self interest is at the core of all relationships
 
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t_co

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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend ! Is this true in case of India

I think the old saying that nations have no permanent friends or enemies, only interests is perfect.

It's always about whats good for the nation and never about friends. Even in the case of soviet union which helped us a lot, it was about trying to get us onto their side

Every relationship has it's ups and down sides,,(even with with China we have some cooperation in international affairs like voting in the UN, WTO trade etc, and we also have quite a few issues with a "frenemy" the U.S) the important part about this is to balance them out, and use them to your advantage.
Ultimately in todays world things are so complex that it's hard to count on "solid" support from anyone in case things start to get hot (specifically wrt to border disputes) So the ability to stand up for ourselves, and not count on others, is really important (a lot of people buy this strategic partnership and think the U.S will help us...).

WRT to the U.S specifically I dont see them as even remotely friendly or having good intentions, because of their relationship with Bakis, and just the sheer amount of mistrust between both sides, they also seem to have a problem with Indians in general, and constantly demonize us through what could only be called as propaganda., in many cases seek to fuel hatred between people through castes,religion, shadow/openly support secessionist movements like the khalistanis, movements in the north east, support for radical movements in the region like Jamaat in B'desh. Nope that relation very much a business relationship, with some interest in terms of defence (again mainly money), but ultimately it looks like we are seen as a threat by them.
The US doesn't view India as a threat; it views India like any other large Eurasian country - something to be fed and then squeezed for trade benefits, but otherwise caged in a balance-of-power with its neighbors.
 

pmaitra

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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend ! Is this true in case of India

The US doesn't view India as a threat; it views India like any other large Eurasian country - something to be fed and then squeezed for trade benefits, but otherwise caged in a balance-of-power with its neighbors.
The US doesn't see India as a major threat as PRC, but there is reason behind speculation that Pakistan will come handy if India becomes too strong to be controlled.
 

sydsnyper

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I would take a lesson from Israel..... There are no real friends, every nation will try to take from you what it needs. Keep baring our teeth to everyone but realize that our true friend is OUR STRENGTH!!!

A small state fought off six bloodthirsty, indoctrinated and crazed enemies. Maybe US helped with weapons, but the foot on the ground and the will of iron was Israeli


Alternately.......grow a few snow capped mountains and call yourself Switzerland :D :D :D
 

jmj_overlord

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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend ! Is this true in case of India

Foreign policy is made by keeping national interest and regional issues and no country in this era can start open hostility against India. We as nation respect all the other nations and this is the reason that all the countries are having open channels with us . Can you name one power with whom we are not having relations ? India's neutrality is keeping balance in the region. This neutrality is not there because Indians are afraid of anyone.
maintaining nuetrality and not being hostile is not enough for us to decide our own future and destiny. We need serious foreign policy reforms on how to maintain relations with other countries and what all actions can be taken in case of troubles. Also we need a strong govt which can act accordingly to any kind of situation and also can project our country not as regional power but as an international power like israel or russia......
 

thakur_ritesh

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The cliché, interests and not emotions/friendships govern foreign relations, and the paradox as sighted in the OP, and likewise the others will deal with us. There are emerging situations, and the countries leverage their positions to gain some, and in bargain give some, a trade off, or the countries position themselves in ways that best suit their interests.

An enemy's enemy, our friend, yes we have exploited such situations but that was an age old trick in the book, now as our economic clout as well as our global stature has gained ground, we have started cultivating our enemies' friends, likewise we have worked on better relations with our friends' enemies, and that is indeed the sight of a nation emerging alongside maturing in the diplomatic scene, where we leave little scope for zero-sum games, because that in parts creates isolation, and we are better off than being in such situations.

On the whole it is our strength that we can work our way with the USA, the PRC and Russia all at the same time. Take Bangladesh and Myanmar, or DPRK and ROK or as sighted in the OP, Israel, Iran led arab community and the KSA led arab community or the PRC, the ROK, and Japan, or Japan and Russia, or the USA, Iran, Syria or as was the case once the USA, Iran and Myanmar, and so on and so forth. If there are complexities between their relations, it is for them to deal with it, not us, nor do we need to put ourselves in situations where we force ourselves to take sides, and just by chance we do, we need to make sure we bargain to the hilt and exploit the situation to the maximum.

Friends we have none, nor did we have any in the past. The Indo-Soviet relationship gets highlighted as one, but look more deeply and hardly any friendship ever existed. Nehru was very keen on building Indo-US relations, so were the Americans, but the Brits were against the idea. India went to the Soviet Union and they were presented with an opportunity to have this huge country by their side. Money poured in, the who's who of India were bought over be it the political class or the army elite or the bureaucracy or the Bollywood or the editors or the judiciary or the elitist of the business community and who so ever made a difference in the way the man on the street thought, and in the end for that man on the street in India, mind you just in India and not in the Soviet Union, this relationship became one of inevitable friendship that saw no bounds. Infact India always remained the one taking the orders most of the time, even on issues like military hardware, we were not allowed to have our free will but only that much that the Soviets wanted us to have, we did have our way, but in bargain there were huge pay-offs. What Indians were never allowed to understand is that India was of a significant strategic significance to the USSR because of which a lot of things happened that on the face of it seemed to benefit India, else there would have been far lesser benefits to be had.
 

nirranj

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In M. Karunanidhi's words,

there is no permanent friendship or Alliance in politics. this fits in the Geo political context too.

Plus:
The man who uttered this was the legendary chameleon of politics. Once He issued a statement saying that His govt will try to find alliance for (Marital) the widow Indira Gandhi. This same man after a period of time issued a Statement that "Oh Daughtter of Nehru come and give this nation stability". :hmm:

His latest Stunt was "We never asked for Congress support in getting Kanimozhi elected to Rajyashaba".:hitwall:
 

feathers

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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend ! Is this true in case of India

maintaining nuetrality and not being hostile is not enough for us to decide our own future and destiny. We need serious foreign policy reforms on how to maintain relations with other countries and what all actions can be taken in case of troubles. Also we need a strong govt which can act accordingly to any kind of situation and also can project our country not as regional power but as an international power like israel or russia......
First and foremost important for us to keep the development going on and for this neutrality is important because the supply lines will not be disrupted. We do keep relations with all the countries even when we are aware which countries are creating which internal problems. We don't have any real allies nor anyone cares about ordinary Indians , they all need our strong Military. There is really no need for Indians to project India as an International power because this work is done by other powers only who wants India to join them and end the neutrality. And here only we have reached that position where we decide our own future and destiny. We don't hate any nations and always see towards all with respect.
 

Srinivas_K

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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend ! Is this true in case of India

First and foremost important for us to keep the development going on and for this neutrality is important because the supply lines will not be disrupted. We do keep relations with all the countries even when we are aware which countries are creating which internal problems. We don't have any real allies nor anyone cares about ordinary Indians , they all need our strong Military. There is really no need for Indians to project India as an International power because this work is done by other powers only who wants India to join them and end the neutrality. And here only we have reached that position where we decide our own future and destiny. We don't hate any nations and always see towards all with respect.
Yes we have to remain neutral and also develop our capabilities to meet the northern bully.

We need thousands of pilots, 100's of battle ships, up gradation of Indo - Tibetan border, thwarting any bigger power who is meddling in S.Asia and ........

Infact India is so balanced right now that it is even trading with china which is supporting Pakistan's nuclear program.

we are doing it perfectly right now by remaining neutral , good for us.
 
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no smoking

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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend ! Is this true in case of India

For pakistan we can build up afghanistan
With India's current pocket, Afghanistan will not join India compaign against anyone! Chinese and Russian won't allow Afghansitan to fall into anyone else hands after americans leave.
 

thakur_ritesh

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I'll like to comment specific on the USA, Pakistan, India equation on discussion in the thread.

Let us take the USA-Pak relations first.

To begin with, there is a historic background to it, Pakistan was specifically created because of its geo-strategic location, infact look into the history and the USA was against the idea of creating Pakistan, and it was the UK which was to sell the idea of a strategically important piece of land close to West Asia, Central Asia, Afghanistan, India and China, to the USA, and they were to take the bait. The idea was, if you control this land, you can further aim to control and dominate vast land from there. Look at the presence of the US in Asia, and you will get a sense of just how important Pakistan is to the American ambitions in the region. Remember, the core significance of Pakistan has not changed, be it for the Americans or the Chinese, it was about location back then and remains so today. Now, when Pakistan came into being, their ruling elite understood the idea of geo-strategic location and they sold the idea to the west, Jinnah to begin with, followed by the rest and till date.

The other thing, their being came with a fear psychosis of India either dismembering them or invading them and so they created a dependency syndrome which was first exploited by the west and the Islamic comity, and now by the west, Islamic comity and the PRC. The fear in parts true, initially Nehru was to write-off Pakistan and he didn't expect it to last for more than a decade, and later a joint effort by Soviet Union and India in 1971 which led to the creation of Bangladesh, and Pakistan has not been able to come off '71 till now. In order to have their back sides covered, the USA was allowed unprecedented access, the ruling elite got the handouts, and the mass was sold the idea of friendship, much like as is being done with the Sino-Pak relations. Now think of it, who would ever let go of such access and a country which is ready to fall head over heels for you, definitely not a super power, and another big power in making.

Now let us reflect on Indo-USA relations.

The Indo-US relations are on a very different pedestrial. This is a far more well defined and a more holistic relationship which incorporates defence, common threats, economy, space exploration, common strategic interests in Africa and East Asia specifically and other regions as well, as a matter of fact India's role has increased in the SEA region largely thanks to the USA, India getting access to certain high tables, the civil nuclear deal, oil and raw material exploration, and there ought to be more than mentioned here.

What we have to learn to do is to not see ourselves from a lens similar to how Pakistan perceives itself as, nor get into any zero sum games. Just because Pakistan has relations with someone, doesn't mean we don't work our relations with them. Pakistan has had very narrow vision all throughout its existence, and it never positioned itself to benefit its interests best. Unlike them, we today have a mature, functional, and a rational policy making, we have grown in economic stature, have a far more well-rounded foreign policy, we do understand what all needs to extracted from a relationship, most importantly, we have not positioned ourselves as a weak nation which is in desperate need of others, which Pakistan always has.

There is so much more to the Indo-USA relations than just the PRC, a skewed notion floated by an insecure PRC and Pakistan.

Important in foreign policy is not that you choose sides as per the whips and fancies of others, but you make them do that for you, for now our economic or the defence or diplomatic clout aren't anywhere close to do tha but we have forced the USA to change its policy towards Pakistan, but if we are believe they will ever let go off them for us, never is that going to happen, they can't have a better client state, so let us do our thing that benefits us and not bother too much on the USA-Pak thing.
 

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