The End of the Chinese Dream

Discussion in 'China' started by Ray, Dec 23, 2011.

  1. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    If this report is representative of the reality that is gripping China, one is worried that all this boom that one talks about in China and is expected to happen in India, is not really that rosy.

    While it is indeed good for the Nation in terms of statistical oneupmanship, is it really what the general population is looking forward to, be it China or India?

    If this is the situation in cities, what would it be in the rural areas?

    Any views?
     
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  3. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    There is nothing to hide. We dont fudge figures. Independent bodies who make assessments, independent media which reports any findings. Even when something was wrong with the export figures, it was caught and government acknowledged it. In China, we know that local prefectures bloat up growth figures to save their necks.

    Let me tell you guys about their factories. At the height of Chinese exports to the west, India and Indians were of the lowest priority, probably unwelcome as they didnt earn good profit from Indians who are very tough and hard bargainers. All that changed when recession hit and you have the Chinese rushing to Indians. They attend all the trade fairs in India and throw the "red carpet" to Indian visitors to China.

    When I went to Mumbai recently, the trade fair was half filled by Chinese. Just before the trade fair that i participated in, there was an exclusive China Trade Fair that was held in that same venue. The Chinese now find India as the market to be in. They dont mind selling cheap but they want to sell just to keep their factories running. You cannot imagine the price they offer. Something that i import from Taiwan at say $15.00, they offer $10..and yes quality sucks.

    The CPC will try hard to make sure they suppress all discontent. I dont think they will be able to survive another Tianenemen which could be even bigger than the last one.

    Expect the Chinese posters here to deny all this. They can afford to do that. They get their fill of 50 cents :D
     
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  4. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    I can't find that article, but it said that China was trying to fire up the domestic market to cover losses in export.

    Yusuf,

    I think you said you visited China.

    Any idea about the situation in their rural areas?
     
  5. Iamanidiot

    Iamanidiot Elite Member Elite Member

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    Sir,I think it will be in China economy thread.Seems to be going up the ladder in China is quite tough
     
  6. Tianshan

    Tianshan Regular Member

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    hahaha there was a thread on this forum recently by asianobserve, that said china economy would collapse before 2012...

    only a few more days to wait!!!

    times are hard for some people, but you cannot simply extrapolate small experiences to entire country. illogical.
     
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  7. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Sir didnt visit their rural areas. I was short on time. But yes the working conditions in their factories are not good. I mean very much third world like. The wages are not that good. For instance my Principle in Taiwan who opened a factory in China as well to take advantage of cheap labor told me the what takes him $800-1000 on a Taiwanese worker in his factory costs him less than $300.

    The little that i saw of the rural side is just like India. The thing about the Chinese is that they will not allow "a Dharavi" in "a Mumbai" and move it out somewhere far.
     
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  8. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    It is good to learn of China from others than hear the usual Chinese propagandists.

    Because one wants to know the truth and not fantasies.
     
  9. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Maybe he was in the auctioneer mood.... Going......Going........Gone! :)

    All said and done, one can't deny that China's boom is fading and the woes are increasing.

    That is what I presume the FP article has indicated.

    Notwithstanding, what is the your take on the situation in urban areas of China and of the rural areas. Is the situation very pleasing and all is well and on the upswing?
     
  10. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Its really difficult to get the truth as the propaganda machine is really well oiled. They didnt want their dissenter to get a Nobel. We cannot expect much of truth from them.
     
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  11. lemontree

    lemontree Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    I feel the article just shows the woes of most countries - unequal distribution of wealth, increasing prices, etc. Does that mean Chinese econmy is downward - hardly. China may fudge figure for the world, but I am sure they have the real figures in some book somewhere and the CCP knows what they are doing.

    They have become the world's strongest economy - now surely they must be doing something right!
     
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  12. sukhish

    sukhish Senior Member Senior Member

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    there is comparison between a democracy and authorutarian rule, yes there economy is growing, but what about people. India is slow but slow and patience is what you get from democracy, where every India is vetted and vetted and only then implemented. china never behaved like a mature state, and reason is because they don't have democracy. eventually india will catch up.
     
  13. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Offcourse they are doing well. No one denies that. Look at the way they have developed their infrastructure. But the way the 50 cent army feeds the world about them being on a different plane altogether is not accurate.

    Captain, they waste their resources too. Ghost towns come up just to keep spending and adding to GDP. That gives employment. They demolish and rebuild routinely again to keep construction booming. I will give them credit for what they have achieved, but then they hide a lot too.
     
  14. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    I believe building infrastructure such a buildings etc goes into the GDP calculations and so ghost towns are good for statistics.

    Of course, China has done well for itself.

    However, that they are the greatest economy is another financial and statistical skulduggery.

    What is the real value of the Chinese currency? Fudged values can work wonders!

    Happiness index?

    If one cannot find adequate accommodation, value for food, and the living index beyond the reach of the commoner, what is the use of a great GDP?

    If one saw my first post, I was wanting to know is India's dream to have a great GDP the end of our woes? Have we nothing to learn from China and its present situation?
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2011
  15. SpArK

    SpArK SORCERER Senior Member

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    China gives man 9 years in prison for arguing for democracy





    BEIJING — A Chinese court sentenced a veteran democracy activist Friday to nine years' imprisonment for inciting subversion, after he wrote four essays arguing for democracy.

    The sentence given to Chen Wei is thought to be the most severe punishment handed down in a crackdown on dissent this year.
    He was convicted of "inciting subversion of state power" over the essays, which he wrote and published online, said one of his lawyers.


    Chen was one of hundreds of dissidents, rights activists and protest organizers swept up in a crackdown on dissent from earlier this year, when the ruling Communist Party sought to stifle potential protests inspired by anti-authoritarian uprisings across the Arab world.


    Attorney Liang Xiaojun said the trial at a court in the city of Suining in southwestern China lasted about two and a half hours and that the sentence was handed down 30 minutes after the trial concluded.


    "We pleaded not guilty. He only wrote a few essays. We presented a full defense of the case, but we were interrupted often, and none of what we said was accepted by the court," Liang said.
    Liang said that after the sentence was handed down, Chen said: "I protest, I am innocent. The governance of democracy must win, autocracy must die."

    What's wrong' with free speech?
    Chen's wife Wang Xiaoyan denounced the punishment.

    "He is innocent and the punishment was too harsh. The court did not allow him to defend himself and he was completely deprived of his right to free speech," Wang said by phone from Suining. "What's wrong with a person freely expressing his ideas?"
    Chen was among those who signed the "Charter 08" manifesto for democratic reform that was co-written by Liu Xiaobo, the jailed dissident who won the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize.


    Two other dissidents from Sichuan detained at about the same as Chen — Ran Yunfei and Ding Mao — have been released.
    Chen, 42, previously served time for participating in the 1989 Tiananmen Square pro-democracy demonstrations in Beijing, where he was attending college.


    In 1994, Chen was sentenced to five years' imprisonment for "counterrevolutionary propaganda and incitement," according to the court indictment for his subversion charge.
    Friday's sentence handed down to Chen appears to be the heaviest penalty meted out in relation to this year's crackdown, said Wang Songlian, a researcher with the Hong Kong-based advocacy group, Chinese Human Rights Defenders.


    "This severe punishment against an activist, caught up in the Jasmine crackdown, shows how the Chinese government's nerves are still jittery," Wang, the Hong Kong researcher, said.
    "All its latest moves, its attempts to control its microblogs, its crackdown on activists, show it is increasing tightening on freedom of expression and other civil liberties," she said.



    Others rounded up in this year's crackdown who have been punished include Beijing activist Wang Lihong, who was sentenced to nine months in jail in September for staging a protest on behalf of other activists, and Yang Qiuyu, a Beijing activist who was sentenced to two years of re-education through labor.
    Before the trial, his wife said Chen was being prosecuted for "nothing but his essays."
    "I hope to see him in the courtroom," she added. "I haven't seen him since he was detained."


    China's party-run courts rarely find in favor of defendants in trials for political charges.

    The Chinese government's hostility to political dissent is likely to grow next year as the Communist Party's prepares for a leadership handover.


    The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.



     
  16. Tianshan

    Tianshan Regular Member

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    not the best, but not bad either. of course it varies from person to person.

    would i like more political rights or less censorship on the internet? would i like a more accountable legal system? sure i would.

    however, the most important thing is to increase the average standard of living relative to last year. if it is rising for the average person then that is good, if falling then not good. simple.

    that to me is more important than anything else. if our government can deliver this i will be happy.

    of course, the bigger our economy become... the more difficult it is to grow. challenging.
     
  17. debasree

    debasree Regular Member

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    the bigger their economy will be ,the near they will be for busting and then dooooooooooooooooooom he he he
     
  18. ice berg

    ice berg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Between unemployment and get paid, even it is to domolish and rebuild. What will you choose?
    Any job is better than no job at all. Nobody is forcing you to do those shitty jobs.

    That CCP is trying to make things look good, isnt something new. Some achievements speaks for itself.
    Should be possible to have a balanced discussion, instead of the usual China bashing or glorifeing China.
     
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  19. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Job is good.

    Job without food and decent food and shelter is good?

    And empty stomach and given in to slavery, what is good?

    China keen on statistics is making all slaves to their national greed!











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    Last edited: Dec 23, 2011
  20. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Where is the bashing? What sense does it make to destroy and rebuild just to make sure a few people are employed and keep their mouth shut? It means the CPC has no clue on how else to provide jobs for its millions of people. Come on who are we kidding here. You have been hogging steel like no tomorrow in your lame projects which have no economic sense. But yes the rest of the world got hurt because of the rise in steel prices. And whats more, my state got screwed of its iron ore because of your demand for steel. I dont blame your country for my state, but mentioning it as an effect of your countries dubious construction spree.
     
  21. ice berg

    ice berg Senior Member Senior Member

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    There is always some people who are left behind. This is not new.
    The question is not wether this is good or bad, but how to create a safety net.
    So far few countries has managed to do that. Even among developed countries.
     

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