The Curse of Being a Pakistani

Archer

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Do you guys realize how childish this is? Yes, Pakistan is the root of many problems in the world today and hence it is not surprising that Pakistan and Pakistanis are viewed with suspicion and derision. However taking joy in the misery of millions of non radicalized Pakistanis who are caught up in this mess is childish. It is unfortunate that many of you don't realize that the aspirations of non radicalized urban Pakistanis aren't any different from yours.

Really? Dehumanizing all Pakistanis makes you happy? Does saying this put a smile on your face? Surely you must have better things to feel good about than something so tawdry.

Collective punishment is a terrible thing and only acceptable as long as you are not on the receiving end.

To me this thread (which has been made a sticky) reflects very poorly on the forum because by default it indicates that there is no intention to conduct unbiased rational debate of any kind, because all precedence is given to immature populist drivel. :nono:
What utter self serving rubbish.

A country breeds terrorists which attack the neighbour round the clock, killings tens of thousands in a protracted manner over several decades. The same country fosters radical terrorism and bigotry on a scale rarely achieved in the 20th century, commits pogrom after pogrom against underrepresented ethnic groups, minorities. It is a cesspool of terror and manufactured hatred on an industrial scale.

And Indians have to sit around, and indulge in gup shup about the aspirations of non radicalized urban Pakistanis.

Rubbish!

Collective punishment is a terrible thing and only acceptable as long as you are not on the receiving end.

Cry us a river! Thanks to people like you, Pakistan has long been able to get away with murder. Each time an act of terrorism occurs, the Pakistani establishment trotted out its bunch of fake-liberal faces who tut-tutted solemnly said all this "was not due to people like us" and promptly escaped censure.

Clearly, the desire to appear very moderate and enlightened is in your eyes, a bigger deal than having empathy for Indians who have been mutilated, killed by Pakistani terror. It is they who require that the whole of Pakistan be collectively held responsible for the actions taken in its name. In WW2, foolish notions like yours did not prevent the Allied Nations from pursuing a total war scenario with respect to the Axis nations who had their fair share of atrocities, from the Holocaust to medical experimentation on victims.

In this case, even that is not being pursued, but merely a well overdue notion that Pakistan as a nation needs to reform itself, and that collective responsibility falls on ALL Pakistanis, not merely those who commit violence, and then disappear whenever the state needs to hide its "Deniable" "non state actors", and the urban Pakistanis whom you so love, appear to come up with sophisticated explanations about how they are not responsible.

These same urban elite, were busy supporting Pakistani causes aided by terrorism, before Pakistan itself had a fall out between its proGovt and proIslamist factions, with the consequent upsurge in violence. Najam Sethi was infamous for making several threats to his Indian interlocutors in off the script remarks about how Pakistan would react to Indian "hegemony". The great Salman Taseer, the poster child for Pakistani liberalism, was an overt bigot when it came to Hindus & even Sikhs and even on visits to India would attempt to posture as a guardian for Indian Muslims.

These are the cretins whom you defend.

Sorry, but the defense of the liberal, self serving elite of Pakistan that you put up (who were all too happy with Indians being on the receiving end of terrorism) rings hollow and actually reflects poorly on you. Far more than a thread like this would ever reflect poorly on Indians.
 

Archer

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Even than, it makes more sense to concentrate on the owner of the rabid dog who keeps egging the dog after you, than the dog itself.
That doesnt work.

You need to first destroy the dog and the threat it represents to the neighbourhood and "put it out of its misery" as versus just building up vis a vis the so called person who is egging the dog on.

As long as India doesn't punish Pakistan severely, Pakistan will continue to be a terror sponsor.

Remember, as a realist pointed out, nations dont often survive and prosper by setting examples for others, they survive and prosper by making examples out of others.

This rings true when confronted by a threat.

When the PRC saw Vietnam posturing as a threat, they spent immense capital & resources in a border conflict that destroyed the infrastructure from which Vietnam could have interceded in PRC territory. But more importantly, it sent a message, that there were things the PRC would not stand for. They then used that period to build up their peace dividend of economic progress and national capability.

Even against India, the PRC sent us a message in 1962, which like it or not, reduced our prestige in the eyes of the world & also led India to scale back its aspirations with regards to local geopolitical dominance.

In our case, our methods can be more subtle than all out war, but one way or the other, we have to neuter Pakistan. Merely ignoring them will not do. We have more terror attacks during the UPA regime than most others, they escalated to an all across India situation Right now the internal turmoil in Pakistan and American pressure is making the PA/ISI dogs of war behave in a more circumspect manner. They know the world is watching and shameless brazen attacks like Mumbai are currently out of favor. This situation can repeat one day.

We have to build up both conventional capabilities & non conventional to teach Pakistan a thorough lesson. The sort that makes Pakistanis afraid to even play a game of violence with India.

When India does that, automatically, the rest of the nations including those willing to be Chinese puppets, will reconsider their position.

They will quickly realise that p!ssing off India does not pay.

By making an example out of Pakistan, a proper no holds barred example, India can ensure consistent peace & continued economic progress for any future show down with China. Most countries would any day prefer the Indian approach of negotiation versus the PRCs all or nothing strategy. Its just that we have to show that we have power & we are not afraid to weild it either.
 

LurkerBaba

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Pakistanis only claim to fame is their enmity towards India; and naive Indians jump towards providing them the same.

Wake up, your country is economically 10 times the size of Pakistan. Forget those chaps as an insignificant nuisance, and deal with a much more economically closer rival, our good friend to the North!
Spoken like a true bhakt of Bharat Karnad :p
 

Blackwater

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Travelling abroad on a Pakistani passport is becoming tougher by the day

Restriction on recreation

Travelling abroad on a Pakistani passport is becoming tougher by the day
By Aoun Sahi


Abid Hussain belongs to a well-established trader family of Islamabad and resides in E-11 Sector. He along with seven of his friends planned to go to Malaysia in March this year on a vacation. They contacted a tour operator who managed to get their visas after some hassle in two weeks. The group of friends left for Malaysia early April this year.

"We planned to go to Malaysia because it was out of question to get visas to some European countries. We were very happy and kept on planning how to spend our time there in Malaysia and joked around during the flight. But all our excitement vanished once we landed at the Kuala Lumpur airport," says Abid Hussain.

The Malaysian authorities questioned them for two hours. They finally allowed only three of them to enter while ordered the other five to be deported from the airport.

In fact, "They sent back several Pakistanis travelling on that flight," says Hussain. "They told us that majority of Pakistanis who come to Malaysia on tourist visas slip into their country and become illegal immigrants. So, they don't allow people on tourist visas until they are not 100 per cent sure that the visitor is a genuine tourist."

Travelling abroad on a Pakistani passport has become tougher in the last two decades.

The situation is not only affecting those who want to visit other countries for economic reasons, but also those who want to travel for recreational purposes especially in summer vacations.

It is not only the war on terror and the track record of Pakistanis in many terrorism activities abroad that alone is responsible for this.

"To get a tourist visa of any country has become difficult for Pakistanis because an overwhelming majority of Pakistanis slip into not only western countries, but also into countries like Malaysia and Dubai," says Ali ****, who is a business partner in one of the country's largest travel agency. "They also use forged or fake documents like bank statements and police reports to apply for tourist visas. It does not only create problem for genuine tourists but also tour operators. We have to pay fines of some kind to get our licenses restored because of these people. Lately, we have been facing severe issues with the Malaysian visas. Most of the time people succeed in getting visas but it has become difficult for them to convince the immigration authorities in Malaysia. I think almost 60 per cent people travelling on the green passport who have genuine tourist visas are being denied entry into Malaysia."

Ali **** says the US, the UK and the European countries are particularly careful while granting visas — "These days the US and European countries are rejecting visas to more than 5 per cent of applicants, and the visa processing procedure usually takes months.":lol::lol:

Dr Abid Qaiyum Suleri, an NGO head based in Islamabad, who travels frequently to different parts of the world for work, says that getting visas in Pakistan is like getting loans from banks. "Those who need it are hardly able to get it as the process has become so complicated over the years."

A tour operator and travel agent based in Faisalabad who has been in the business since the mid-1990s tells TNS that things have changed drastically for the Pakistanis trying to travel abroad for all purposes. "Everyone, from businessmen to tourists to students to job-seekers to pilgrims, has been affected. Tourists are among the most hit. They spend money to go somewhere to relax but it has become so hectic to get a visa in the first place and then the kind of grilling Pakistanis go through at entry points almost everywhere in the world has made it very tough."

Syed Wahad Raza whose company arranges tours in the Middle East, tells TNS that his company did not receive a single application for a tourist visa this year, while when the company started, five years ago, the company started getting applications from April. Another reason is also that the expenses—airfare and hotel rates — have doubled during the last five years.

According to Raza, "In those days most of the countries, except Gulf states, used to stamp passports on arrival. Now there are less than 20 countries (mainly African countries and some SAARC countries) in the world that grant Pakistanis visas on arrival."
:lol::lol:


Several Western countries' embassies in Pakistan have scaled down their presence in Pakistan and some have scrapped their visa councillor offices altogether. The embassies now do not allow applicants to come straight to them to file the application. They ask the applicants to file applications along with pile of documents like bank accounts, property ownership details, return tickets, hotel booking confirmation receipts, proof of travel and health insurance, medical test reports and police reports through a courier service provider.

In many cases applicants are needed to fill online application forms as well.

Western countries have not only increased their visas fees manifold but have increased the processing time as well and applicants are asked not to bother calling the embassy to check the status of an application.

At present, the tourist visa fee for the US is Rs14,400 plus Rs1,500 courier charges and UK visit visa fee valid for six months is Rs9,750 (inclusive of FedEx charges) plus Rs200 bank charges. Visa fees are non-refundable while one also spends a good amount of money to come to Islamabad for the interview. For the US and other western countries an acceptance of visa applications does not mean that visas will surely be granted. For example, the US embassy after accepting an application gives a receipt to the applicant that clearly mentions that it can take several months to issue a visa and the embassy has the right to deny a visa even then if it is not satisfied with the applicant.

Another very important factor that makes travelling from Pakistan to Western countries cumbersome is the suspension of operations of all Western airlines from Pakistan after 9/11. There are hardly any direct flights from Pakistan to Western countries and Pakistanis have to travel on Middle Eastern countries which further adds to the cost of travel. For example it costs only Indian Rs 32,000 to 35,000 (around Pakistani Rs 60,000) to get a return air ticket to any European country from India. While these countries' air ticket from Pakistan is not less than Rs 80,000 to 90,000.

Then there are several countries like Mexico which do not have their embassies in Pakistan and people have to travel to India or some other country to get a visa.



Different countries have introduced specific restrictions for Pakistanis who want to travel. India, has always been considered the most problematic country for Pakistanis to travel to and vice versa because of required documentation and security approvals, but even a country like Indonesia has made it essential for applicants to show a personal guarantor from Indonesia who needs to explain concerned authorities in Indonesia why he/she may be inviting a Pakistani to Indonesia. Cambodia also requires a personal guarantor for visiting Pakistanis.

Dubai fines a travel agent Rs 180,000 if a tourist overstays or slips.

Rumana Hussain , a regular international traveller and travel writer agrees that the situation has become tougher for Pakistani tourists to go abroad. "It depends on where one wants to go. For example India is our neighbour and the cheapest country to travel to but it is the most difficult country to get into. The situation is also different for people belonging to different age groups. Young people have been facing the worst situation. It is also true that visa processing for Pakistanis has become more complex and time consuming but better planning can help to overcome this issue. People should apply two-three months in advance and should fill the online application forms with full concentration. I think it would help those getting visas in time and less grilling at airports."

pride Daughter of the North West Malalai has proved that she is worthy of the name
 
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Blackwater

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Re: Travelling abroad on a Pakistani passport is becoming tougher by the day

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::lol:
 

Blackwater

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Re: Travelling abroad on a Pakistani passport is becoming tougher by the day

:taunt::eyebrows::becky::pakistan::)):hurray::hurray:
 

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