The best critical analysis of j20 fighter

Discussion in 'China' started by Drsomnath999, Sep 11, 2011.

  1. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    I.STEALTH

    1. Canards
    [​IMG]
    canards are forewings close to the nose of the aircraft that provide maneuverability. According to Mr. Aboulafia, “There’s no better way of guaranteeing a radar reflection and compromise of stealth” than adding canards to the aircraft.canards are generally indicative of a less-than-harmonious design requiring ‘bolt-on’ fixes. And as they add radar-reflecting edges, they’re usually not stealthy.

    [​IMG]
    Now compare it all other 5th gwn fighters they dont have canards or may be the chinese are the 1 step ahead to US & russia in stealth designing[​IMG]

    2.engine nozzles
    [​IMG]
    The same goes for the engine nozzles, which were clearly not designed to be stealthy, as well the large overall size of the aircraft.But in a close air combat, thought it has a higher manoeuvrability, it is still vulnerable to heat seeking missiles as the aircraft lacks a stealth design in the nozzle section.

    Though, the aft section stealth design doesn’t look satisfactory, the tail boom, fins and the engine with a conventional nozzle compromises further the overall stealth characteristics of the aircraft.
    [​IMG]
    The F-22, B-2 stealth bomber and now-retired F-117 stealth fighter-bomber all have carefully shaped, angular nozzles meant to scatter radar waves. In the F-22, these nozzles can move, ‘vectoring’ the engine thrust to boost manoeuvrability. The apparent absence of stealthy nozzles and thrust-vectoring places a hard limit on the J-20’s ability to evade radar detection from behind.

    The design has only two apparent weaknesses, which are the curvature in the slab side shaping, which provides broader reflection lobes than necessary, and the circular exhaust nozzle, a weakness common to the F-35 and T-50.

    II.ENGINE
    The J-20 may have lower supercruise speed and less agility than a Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor or PAK FA,
    The 117S series has thrust vectoring nozzles and will add to the manoeuvrability of the aircraft. Since it has a conventional nozzle it will have a high infra red signature which makes it vulnerable to missile which have IR homing. The aircraft also lacks super cruise capability, one of the essential aspects of a fifth generation fighter.
    But the AL-31F isn’t necessarily adequate for a large, stealthy fighter. For the T-50, Sukhoi originally planned to use an up-rated version of the AL-31F, but ended up installing a brand-new (and mostly secret) engine, instead.
    Since the early 1990s Russian sources have disclosed to the author that Shenyang was experiencing great difficulties in meeting planned thrust goals, while there have been reports and rumors of other specific problems. In August 2009 a Chinese AVIC official admitted there were many problems facing the Taihang but declined to elaborate. In 2004 a Russian official speculated that China would still put this engine into production. Other possible issues include incidents of shedding turbine blades, oil leakage issues, and even one unconfirmed rumor of a new J-11BS fighter disintegrating in flight due to a Taihang engine failure.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    While having resisted the sale of its current advanced turbofan technology to China, Russia hopes to remain a source for completed advanced turbofans. According to Russian officials China has purchased between 300 and 400 Saturn A-31FN engines for the Chengdu J-10 fighter. This source also noted that China has not yet purchased a thrust-vectored version of this engine despite reports of interest dating back to 2005. However, this source did note that China is interested in the improved more powerful versions of the AL-31. For example, the AL-31F-M1 adds 1,000kg of thrust for a total maximum thrust of 13,500kg, and Russian officials note that future versions could achieve 15-tons of thrust. The PLA may make additional purchases of the AL-31FN if Shenyang’s and Chengdu’s engine programs remain problematic. While sale of Russia’s next generation Saturn Item 117 turbofan remains possible, it may not be likely given that China would prefer that its 4th/5th generation fighter be an indigenous product.
    [​IMG]

    However, evidence still suggests that AVIC’s engine makers are having trouble maintaining consistent quality control as they scale up production of the WS-10, causing problems with reliability and keeping China’s tactical aircraft heavily reliant on imported Russian engines. Russia’s defense industry appears to believe that China will continue to be unable to attain reliable mass production of high-performance military turbofans. For example, NPO Saturn, a key Russian military jet engine maker, forecasts that it will continue serving as the primary engine supplier for China J-10 and FC-1 fighter programs through 2019. Saturn’s optimism may stem in part from the fact that is it currently in talks with China over the possible sale of 190 D-30KP-2 turbofans, which could be used on China’s IL-76 aircraft.
    The lack of a sufficient supply of reliable domestically made jet engines could significantly impede future production of the J-10, J-11, J-15, and J-20 fighter aircraft. The J-20 program especially needs domestic engine development and production breakthroughs because the Russia appears reluctant to sell the 117S series engines that could enable the J-20 to have sufficient power to allow the aircraft to supercruise (sustain supersonic flight without using inefficient afterburners) and match the performance of 5th-generation fighters such as the Lockheed Martin F-22 and Sukhoi T-50/PAK FA.

    A Russian aerospace expert recently quoted in Huanqiu Shibao says China’s inability to produce world-class high-performance jet engines will be a major barrier to large-scale production of the J-20 and in the meantime will hinder China’s ability to full test the airframe’s capability in the ways that it could with engines making 35,000-40,000 lbs of thrust like the AL-41 and U.S. F119 engines can.
    The Russian experts statements lead to two core logical conclusions: (1) China is unlikely to want to rely on imported components for its latest generation fighter, and (2) in the wake of the disputes over China’s reverse engineering of Flanker variants (into China’s J-11 and J-15) and subsequent slowdown/suspension of new orders of Russian combat aircraft, Saturn and other Russian jet engine makers are unlikely to receive Kremlin approval for selling substantial numbers of high-end engines like the Saturn S117/AL-41 (used in the T-50) to China.
    But despite all these if Russia stills sell advance engines to china for J20 then they are digging their own graves.

    III.MATERIALS
    To the best of our knowledge, no Chinese sources have published a materials composition breakdown for the J-20. Materials are key in a late-generation fighter for two major reasons. First, the plane must be sufficiently robust to withstand violent maneuvering and the heat generated by sustained high-speed operation. We think China’s aerospace industry now has most if not all of the requisite capabilities. Baoti, one of China’s largest titanium producers, says that it supplies 95% of the titanium used by China’s aerospace complex, suggesting that the company can produce high-grade materials. This is a key point because the other main global suppliers of aerospace grade titanium are all potential competitors—the U.S., Russia, and Japan.
    Second, advanced composites and surface coatings (e.g., special radar-absorbing paint) help reduce radar signature. The F-22 and T-50 are each roughly 25% composite by weight. We think it is likely that the early J-20s are more titanium and metal-intensive and that as the design is refined to reduce radar cross section (RCS), the composite content will rise. As China pursues low-observable aircraft and UAVs, we expect significant advances in the domestic composite and coatings industry as the defense complex strives to avoid reliance on key imported components

    IV.Avionics/electronics
    Electronic equipment, primarily radar, in China stands at approximately the same level as its engines. Chinese designs fall short of the capabilities of their Russian, European and American counterparts. Although China has been gradually narrowing the gap, it still has to import modern electronic equipment for its aircraft.
    The best aircraft radar systems are currently made for Russia's Su-30MKK fighters, and China will most likely copy this design. It is not clear how much it will differ in terms of specifications from next-generation Russian or American radar systems.Access to Russian and Israeli active electronically scanned array (AESA) technology has likely accelerated China development of this critical technology for 4+ and 5th generation fighters and new radar aircraft.

    We are watching carefully for indications that China has developed sensor fusion capabilities and an advanced active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar systems, which allow an aircraft to scan for adversaries while being hard to detect. AESA systems also confer jamming resistance, an important advantage in an intense electromagnetic environment like that which would likely characterize a modern Asian military contingency.

    CONCLUSION
    The j20 may be better in stealth than it's russian competitors,but it has no other clear advantage to it's Russian rivals t50 & US rivals f22.:whistle:
     
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  3. Drona

    Drona Guest

    I think the main challenge for Chinese aerospace engineers is to design suitable engine, because they are developing a heavy stealth fighter with out substantial base to develop suitable engine which should support its weight as well as powerful radar. About fighter design, its seems other design airframe around engine, but Chinese has done it around the box. I don't think it possible to relay on RAM and composites to reduce RCS, RAM would do the job but fractional compare to stealth design, RAM would provide maximum effectiveness at particular radar wavelength, facing AESA it wouldn't be that effective.composites are mainly to reduce weight.
     
  4. arya

    arya Senior Member Senior Member

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    how you will compare with pak fa

    can any one tell me who will induct first chinise or india 5th gernation plane

    they are making there own and we are depend on russia why ??
     
  5. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    i had alraedy written apart from stealth they had no clear advantage ,plz read the article

    obviously ind & russia would induct their 5th gen earliear than chinese ,

    no we are depended to Russia for 5th gen becoz. india ' need next gen fighter soon,& india 's own lca programmed is delayed .But we are also starting to develop Our own ADVANCED MEDIUM COMBAT AIRCRAFT(5th gen fighter)
     
  6. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    Dont you think its a bit early to do the analysis of J20 ?

    And J-20 has no weapons bay :)
     
  7. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    it doesnt matter ,becoz j20 is the hot topic of all defence forum ,so it's crittcal analysis is as important as it + ve analysis

    how can u say that,just becauze it has not testfired any weapons
     
  8. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    Cos we do not have much info to do an analyis and its in its very early stage of development.

    No, Google some high resolution pictures of J20 and see it yourself.
     
  9. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    so what T50 is alraedy in early stage of development ,still it is being analyzed ,& so do j20 .PLZ dont expect any information would be given by chinese sources now.See it is an critical analsis ,not a detail analysis



    [​IMG]

    'Not a pound for air-to-ground': Inside the J-20 weapons bay - The DEW Line
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  10. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    so what T50 is alraedy in early stage of development ,still it is being analyzed ,& so do j20 .PLZ dont expect any information would be given by chinese sources now.See it is an critical analsis ,not a detail analysis



    [​IMG]

    'Not a pound for air-to-ground': Inside the J-20 weapons bay - The DEW Line
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  11. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    so what T50 is alraedy in early stage of development ,still it is being analyzed ,& so do j20 .PLZ dont expect any information would be given by chinese sources now.See it is an critical analsis ,not a detail analysis


    J20 made taxi and opened weapon bay - YouTube
    http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/t...1/07/J20 weapons bay-thumb-560x432-133819.jpg

    'Not a pound for air-to-ground': Inside the J-20 weapons bay - The DEW Line
     
  12. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    so what T50 is alraedy in early stage of development ,still it is being analyzed ,& so do j20 .PLZ dont expect any information would be given by chinese sources now.See it is an critical analsis ,not a detail analysis


    i had posted the link but upto moderators to publish it here
     
  13. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    We know lot of information about Pakfa cos russians release them .

    Agree. but we need to see a production model to do an analysis.

    Fair enough.

    Post the link ? They sure would not mind it.
     
  14. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Who has done this "critical analysis"? I don't see any link.
     
  15. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    What access does China have to Israeli or Russian AESA radars? Both are still in prototype stage and really doubt if they allow snooping PLA officials on their premises. End note is J-20 avionics will be inferior to any modern fighter fielded.
     
  16. aimarraul

    aimarraul Regular Member

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  17. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Not really. You cannot see only one aspect and then say it compromises stealth all over. The J-20 is a complex body and the waves behaviour pattern changes as and when it strikes the body of the J-20. They have achieved a degree of stealth and for some it may seem crude, for some it may only seem a straight forward way of achieving stealth. Like the flat underbelly on J-20 and F-117 as compared to the various patterns in the underbelly of the other stealth aircraft like F-22, F-35, PAKFA and YF-23.

    A lot of these patterns affect stealth and aerodynamics and so do canards. But to say canards simply compromise stealth completely is not right.

    They will eventually come. Even the PAKFA is set to get flat nozzles.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWkQRPzYrlQ&feature=player_embedded

    By far the only thing that is yet to be proven in China. If it has been then it is not public yet.

    The time they get an operational squadron with their home made engine, then this is their biggest hurdle.

    The J-10B has significant composite structure. Not something that is very difficult.

    The radar is right behind the engine on this one.

    Unnecessary signals emission will compromise stealth and is a problem for all aircraft including the F-22. It is just that the degree will vary from US to Chinese tech.

    The Russian Bars noise levels is less than 3dB. Irbis is higher at 3.5dB. The noise levels are supposedly almost equal to American AESA arrays. Chinese technology is obviously not proven and yes their best radar is the one on Su-30MKK.

    Not necessary. Everything can depend on how many the Chinese plan on fielding in the end. The Americans will obviously not stop at 183. They will resume production once the F-22C is out. The Russian plan stands at 200-300. But if the Chinese manage 500+, then that would be a number both Russia and US will find difficult to compete with.
     
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  18. aimarraul

    aimarraul Regular Member

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    I suggest you get to know more about SU-30MKK,it was designed to be a stricker .not a fighter

    Su-30MKK/MK2 Flanker
    A $1.85 billion contract was signed by Chinese and Russian military leaders in late 1999 to purchase 38 Su-30MKK fighter bombers for PLAAF, with the first 10 delivered by KNAAPO on December 20, 2000, and the second 10 delivered on August 21, 2001. The rest of the batch were delivered by the end of 2001. More advanced and powerful than JH-7 operated by PLAN, Su-30MKK will become the first fighter bomber operated by PLAAF capable of carrying a wide range of Russian-made precision-guided air-to-surface weapons including TV guided missiles (Kh-29T & Kh-59ME), anti-radiation missiles (Kh-31P), TV guided bombs (KAB-500KR & KAB-1500KR). In addition it can also carry Sorbtsiya ECM pods at wingtips as well as Sapsan-E EO pod (containing TV camera and laser designator) and APK-9 datalink pod for Kh-59ME underneath its engine air intake. Its maximum weapon load is 8 ton. Its range can be extended up to 5,200km by in-flight refueling, even though China currently does not have a suitable tanker (e.g. Il-78) yet. As the result, it is expected to replace some of the roles of H-6 medium bomber to launch long range strikes against high value targets deep inside the enemy territory. The aircraft features Su-35 style tailfins with square tips and twin nose wheels. It also features a glass cockpit, an NIIP N001VE fire-control radar (range 100km, engage 2 aerial targets simultaneously, plus multiple AG modes) capable of firing R-77E active radar homing AAM. The first test fire of R-77E by Su-30MKK was carried out in June 2002. In addition, the older R-27 semi-active radar homing AAM can also been carried. It was reported that Su-30MKK can be used as a mini-airborne command post to direct up to 16 of the same type via datalink to engage the enemy aircraft. Unlike Su-30MKI acquired by IAF, it lacks canard foreplanes, AL-31FP thrust-vectoring engine (Su-30MKK still uses AL-31F) and N-011M phased-array radar, however its delivery schedule is two and half years faster (in full standard). The acquisition of this F-15E class fighter bomber by PLAAF would inevitably tip the military balance in the North East Asia. Currently the first 19 of Su-30MKKs are stationed at Wuhu Airbase in Southeast China, directly facing Taiwan and the South China Sea, while the rest 19 were assigned to the PLAAF Flight Test & Training Base. In July 2001 China ordered the 2nd batch of 38 Su-30MKKs worth $1.5 billion during Chinese President's visit to Moscow. All of them were delivered to PLAAF 18th Division Stationed at Changsha Airbase. In January 2003 China ordered 24 Su-30MK2s (featuring an upgraded N001VEP radar able to fire Kh-31A & Kh-59MK AShMs to attack two targets simultaneously) for the PLA Naval Aviation. All were reportedly delivered to China by the end of August 2004. Unfortunately one was lost in March 2004 due to pilot error. The aircraft was later replaced.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2011
  19. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Su-30MK2s are using Zhuk-MS that has 6kw peak, 10 targets tracked and 4 targets engaged. It is not a bad radar and one China is ferociously trying to copy. That copy will be going into the J-20. However, it is not comparable to the legacy PESAs still on the market.
     
  20. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Interception and strike does not matter as much. What is important is the radar. The N001VE is the best you got from open sources. The KLJ-10 may or may not compare to it. But if you have a source saying the KLJ-10 is better then I am open for it.
     
  21. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    hey man i had done this analysis on my own
     
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