The Battle of The Behemoths : Google Vs China

Discussion in 'China' started by notinlove, Jan 13, 2010.

  1. notinlove

    notinlove Regular Member

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    All i can do is be me, whoever that is.
    San Francisco (AFP) Jan 12, 2010
    Google
    threatened Tuesday to shut down its operations in China after uncovering what it said were "highly sophisticated" cyberattacks aimed at Chinese human rights activists.

    Google said China-based cyber spies struck the Internet
    giant and at least 20 other unidentified firms in an apparent bid to hack into the email accounts of activists around the world.

    Google said the online espionage has it reconsidering its business operations in China and it has decided to no longer filter Internet search engine
    results in China.

    "These attacks and the surveillance they have uncovered -- combined with the attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the Web -- have led us to conclude that we should review the feasibility of our business operations in China," Google chief legal officer David Drummond said in a blog post.

    "We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all," he said.

    Drummond said Google realizes that defying Chinese government demands regarding filtering Internet search engine results may mean having to shut down its operations in China.

    "Google has taken a bold and difficult step for Internet freedom in support of fundamental human rights," said Leslie Harris, president of US-based nonprofit advocacy group Center for Democracy & Technology.

    "No company should be forced to operate under government threat to its core values or to the rights and safety of its users."

    Drummond said Google detected in mid-December "a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China that resulted in the theft of intellectual property from Google."

    Evidence indicated that the attackers were trying to get access to Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists, according to Drummond.

    Google believes the attack was mostly blocked and that only minor information, like creation dates and subject lines, were stolen from two accounts.

    At least 20 other large companies including finance, Internet, media, technology, and chemical businesses were similarly attacked, according to Google.

    "We are currently in the process of notifying those companies, and we are also working with the relevant US authorities," Drummond said.

    Google said its investigation revealed that accounts of China human rights activists who use Gmail in Europe, China, or the United States had been "routinely accessed" using malware sneaked onto their computers.

    "Independent of the attack on Google, we have discovered that the accounts of dozens of US-, China- and Europe-based Gmail users who are advocates of human rights in China appear to have been routinely accessed by third parties," Drummond said.

    "We have taken the unusual step of sharing information about these attacks with a broad audience not just because of the security and human rights implications of what we have unearthed, but also because this information goes to the heart of a much bigger global debate about freedom of speech," he said.

    "The decision to review our business operations in China has been incredibly hard, and we know that it will have potentially far-reaching consequences," he added.

    Google was careful to stress that the decision was made by the California company's executives in the United States and not by workers within easy reach of authorities in China.

    Google also said it has used information gained from studying the attack to improve the Internet titan's security.

    "We have been working hard to secure our systems, confirm the facts, and notify the relevant authorities," said Google spokesman Gabriel Stricker.

    "We've gone public with this as quickly as we sensibly could."

    Google may quit China over cyberattacks on rights activists
     
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  3. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    Day by day China is turning into a country with criminal behavior. It need to be stopped in its tracks from doing more criminal acts.
     
  4. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    Google snubs China with 'Tank Man'

    Agence France Presse, Wednesday January 13, 2010, Beijing


    The iconic "Tank Man" photo taken during the 1989 Tiananmen crackdown and banned in China was available on Google.cn on Wednesday, hours after the online giant vowed to defy Chinese Internet censors.

    Google announced on Tuesday that it would no longer censor search engine results in China and possibly pull out of the world's largest online market, citing cyber spy attacks and Chinese Web censorship.

    Searches for other sensitive topics such as the Dalai Lama and the banned Falungong spiritual group were also returned on Google, but were also available on some Chinese portals.

    China blocks Web content it deems politically objectionable in a vast censorship system dubbed the "Great Firewall of China."

    Google said it was targeted by China-based cyber spies along with at least 20 other unidentified firms in an apparent bid to hack into the email accounts of rights activists around the world.

    Several people, some bearing flowers, turned up Wednesday at Google's China headquarters in Beijing to show their support for the Internet giant, an AFP journalist witnessed.

    "We are ordinary Google users who have come here to say thank you. We want to show our support to Google," said one woman, who would not give her name
     
  5. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    Clinton Says China Must Explain Alleged Google E-Mail Attacks

    By Indira A.R. Lakshmanan


    Jan. 13 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called on China to explain what Google Inc. described as a “highly sophisticated” attack on its Chinese web site aimed at e-mail accounts of human rights activists.

    “We look to the Chinese government for an explanation,” Clinton, who is in Hawaii on the first stop of an Asia-Pacific trip, said in a statement. The allegations “raise very serious concerns and questions.”

    Google yesterday said it plans to stop censoring results on its Google.cn site after discovering the attack, adding that at least 20 other large companies had been targeted as well.

    The company informed Clinton about the situation last week, a senior U.S. official familiar with the matter said on condition of anonymity. Google Chief Executive Officer Eric Schmidt was among a group of technology executives who dined with Clinton at the State Department last week to discuss the promotion of democracy and development.

    Wang Lijian, a Beijing-based spokesman for the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology, said he couldn’t comment as he was unaware of the situation. China’s foreign ministry declined to comment.

    Clinton is planning to give a speech Jan. 21 in Washington on Internet security, during which she will disclose some new U.S. policies and actions, the official said. That speech was previously scheduled and not a consequence of Google’s announcement, the official added.

    The White House declined to comment directly on Google’s statement.

    ‘A National Priority’

    “President Obama made cyber security a national priority which is why shortly after taking office he directed his National Security Council and Homeland Security Council to conduct a top-to-bottom review of the federal government’s efforts to defend our information and communications infrastructure and to recommend the best way to secure these networks and our prosperity,” Nick Shapiro, an administration spokesman, said.

    When he visited China in November, President Barack Obama spoke out against censorship of the Internet, telling students at a forum in Shanghai that an open exchange of information makes nations stronger rather than weaker.

    “Unrestricted Internet access is a source of strength, and I think, should be encouraged,” he said at the Nov. 16 event.
     
  6. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

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  7. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

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  8. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

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    Google's about turn in China

    Page last updated at 12:20 GMT, Wednesday, 13 January 2010

    [​IMG]

    Google's change of heart over China raises wider issues, says regular commentator Bill Thompson.

    Google has responded to what it terms 'a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure' aimed at getting access to the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists by announcing its desire to stop censoring search results on its Google.cn website.

    Writing on the official Google blog the company's Chief Legal Officer David Drummon says that 'over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law', but there is clearly little expectation that this will be possible and Google has apparently decided that it will, if necessary, stop operating in China.

    At the same time they have announced that all access to Gmail will now be over the more secure encrypted https protocol by default instead of the usual http standard that sends data as clear text, a move that is clearly being made in response to the hacking and makes a lot of sense.

    The censorship goes back to January 2006 when Google launched its Chinese search engine to widespread criticism. Building a service around the restrictions insisted upon by the Chinese government meant that searches for topics like Tianenmen brought up very different results when carried out in China, with no images of the student protests or their violent suppression coming up.

    Rising pressure

    The company defended its approach at the time, arguing that it was following local laws and that the benefits of bringing information - even censored information - to the people of China outweighed the need to hold to the corporate motto "don't be evil", because sometimes a little bit of evil was unavoidable.

    It also made good business sense, of course, since other Western search companies were already operating in China and local search engines were acquiring users in one of the fastest-growing internet markets in the world, a market that no western company could afford to ignore. Google may believe its services are a force for good, but they are also, and must be, a force for profit too, even if they are free at the point of use.

    [​IMG]

    "Threatening to pull out of China is like threatening to spit on a whale"

    Bill Thompson

    But now things have changed, and the attacks on Gmail accounts of human rights activitists seem to have tipped the scale back to the side of being good, with Google now apparently recognising that its presence in China has not encouraged openness or built pressure on the authorities to reduce the degree of control and censorship and that its support for the current system may in fact have given it credibility.

    Yet the attack on Gmail cannot have come as a surprise, and even though Google is careful not to accuse the authorities of direct involvement the implication is clear. Groups like Students for a Free Tibet are being hacked all the time, and the US government has acknowledged that China is a main origin of attempts to infiltrate and disrupt US government websites.

    Of course liberal democracies do the same, passing laws like the US Patriot Act or our own Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act that legalise interception and provide a framework for spying and snooping.

    Chinese attempts to break into the Gmail accounts of human rights activists are as legal as attempts by the UK secret service to infiltrate the email accounts of religious extremists who are considered potential terrorists, while Google's search results are filtered and censored here in the UK to take account of legal constraints such as laws against images of child abuse.

    Google and other webmail providers also routinely provide access to customer data when the authorities require it under the law, both in the UK and elsewhere, and European ISPs are obliged to retain and turn over details of our online interactions if needed to investigate crime.

    'Wrong way'

    Here in the UK Peter Barron, former editor of BBC Newsnight and now Google UK's head of communications, has been all over the media giving their side of the story, but I haven't seen any response from Chinese government spokespeople, and doubt one will be forthcoming.

    Google may be big news in the west, but the decision of one search engine provider to renege on its agreement to follow local laws and ask for an exemption is unlikely to merit a formal response.

    Threatening to pull out of China is like threatening to spit on a whale. It may make Google feel better, but organisations working to open up China and change its policies know that threats are simply not going to work.

    Perhaps the senior management team at Google are simply guilty of believing all the stories in the media that paint them as all-powerful and supremely important, or perhaps they just don't know as much about real politics as they do about building better search or targeting adverts.

    When Google went into China I wrote that it was making the right choice and that a policy of constructive engagement was the only effective way forward. Even though it has clearly failed in this instance I still believe that we will only make progress if we talk to those with whom we disagree, and if we try at least to understand the complexities that face us as different cultures try to find ways to use the technologies that underpin the global internet. Google's approach is not the way to effect change.

    Bill Thompson is an independent journalist and regular commentator on the BBC World Service programme Digital Planet. He is currently working with the BBC on its archive project.

    BBC News - Google's about turn in China
     
  9. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    Even if were to spit on the face of China, they wouldn't give two hoots about it. But that's the way CCP thugs and party work in China.
     
  10. nimo_cn

    nimo_cn Senior Member Senior Member

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    Google pullout threat 'a pressure tactic'

    Google's threat to pull out of China over what it claims to be cyber attacks has left millions of Chinese users concerned - and analysts described the move as the company's strategy to put pressure on the Chinese government.

    Google - the world's largest search engine - said in a statement yesterday that it is considering exiting China after the company had been hit in December with major cyber attacks that it believes originated in the country.

    It is not clear whether users in China, including many foreigners, would continue to access services such as Gmail and Google Map, should the company shut its service.

    David Drummond, Google's chief legal officer, said in an unusual statement posted online that the company had detected a highly sophisticated and targeted attack from China that resulted in the theft of the company's intellectual property.

    "These attacks ... led us to conclude that we review the feasibility of our business operations in China."

    He said Google will no longer continue censoring results on Google.cn, a Chinese-language website it launched in 2006, and is discussing with the Chinese government the possibility that it operate an unfiltered search engine within the law.

    "We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China," he added.

    The statement marks a shift in the company's China strategy for the past five years, which is to provide censored results under Chinese law through its domestic search engine in exchange for a presence in the world's largest online population.

    That strategy helped Google take about 35 percent of China's search engine market in the fourth quarter of last year, according to domestic research firm Analysys International.

    Jiao Jian, an office worker who uses both Baidu and Google every day, said the possible shutdown of the Google search engine will have little impact on his life as many other firms provide similar services. "But it's hard to find alternatives to Google's other services, such as Google Map, Google Earth and Gmail," he said.

    He also expressed concerns over the availability and safety of his Gmail account if Google exited the country.

    Google started a Chinese-language search service as early as 2000 but the company did not have a significant presence in the country until it established a China team in 2005 and launched Google.cn the following year.

    Google's possible retreat from China has prompted the company's 700 China staff to fear for their jobs.

    "At a general meeting on Wednesday, we were told that Google might quit China, and all of us feel very sad," said an employee with Google's Beijing office on condition of anonymity.

    Drummond's post also said Google would try to negotiate with the Chinese government for more favorable operating conditions in China.

    However, the anonymous employee told Xinhua that most Google employees are pessimistic about the outcome of the negotiations.

    "No agreement will be reached with both sides refusing to give in," he said.

    But Guo Ke, a professor on mass communication at Shanghai International Studies University, said it was "almost impossible" for Google to quit China but the Chinese government would not put an end to censorship either.

    "It will not make any difference to the government if Google quits China; however, Google will suffer a huge economic loss by leaving the Chinese market," Guo said.

    "Chinese Internet users are the real victims if Google quits China. I think Google is just playing cat and mouse, and trying to use netizens' anger or disappointment as leverage," Guo said.

    An unnamed official from the State Council Information Office said yesterday that the government is seeking more information on Google's statement.

    The official, cited by Xinhua, said it is hard to say whether Google will quit China.

    Ever since Lee Kaifu quit as head of Google's China operations six months ago, there have been rumors that the company was rethinking its China strategy and even move its servers out of the country after being involved in a series of government-led Internet crackdowns last year.

    It was reported that many employees left Google after Lee's resignation in September and the company has not recruited any new staff since October, according to a Google employee who declined to be named.

    Dozens of Google users gathered at the company's headquarters in Beijing yesterday afternoon, some bringing flowers to say farewell.

    Most of them were university students who came to pay tribute to the IT giant, expressing disappointment at its withdrawal from China.

    Google is one of the few Internet giants that have a significant presence in China. Other firms such as Yahoo! and eBay Inc have given up on the China market after years of sluggish performance.

    Millions of Chinese are fans and loyal users of Google and its services such as Gmail, Gtalk and Picasa.

    If Google quits China, all its users may have to move their emails and other documents and pictures in advance.

    According to the latest official figures, China had 338 million Internet users by the end of June last year.

    Google's major competitor Baidu had a 58-percent market share in the last quarter, according to Analysys International.

    Zhao Yanrong, Chen Limin and Gao Shan contributed to the story
    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2010-01/14/content_9316828.htm
     
  11. FKA3

    FKA3 New Member

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    Bye bye google,

    actually i really like google.cn;

    what a pity
     
  12. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    Just when you think the CCP cant sink any lower

    Just when you think that the Chinese CCP guys cannot sink any lower - they always manage to surprise you.

    It seems like the Google pullout of China is based on the use of Google by China state-sponsored hackers to hack into the activities of dissidents.

    China is also it seems, actively trying to target all major private research companies all over the Western world.

    It seems like the Chinese can never get over their copying habit. The UK intelligence has warned over 300 companies about China online espionage of industrial secrets.

    This is unprecedented for the MI-5 to do this. It seems also like many major US firms have been hit. The stolen information is being stored in some repository in China.

    There is no doubt that this is an officially sanctioned CCP operation. It is simply too big, too vast and too well planned to just be a couple of hackers playing games.

    Maybe the CCP just does not have any confidence in the ability of Chinese engineers and scientists !!

    Read the article about the Google pullout :
    Google attacks traced back to China, says US internet security firm | Technology | guardian.co.uk
     
  13. nimo_cn

    nimo_cn Senior Member Senior Member

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    Google pulls out of China because it can not compete with another serach engine Baidu. But in oder to save its face and vent its dissatisfaction, Google deflected the public attention to Chinese government by blaming Chinese censorship on its search result, hoping it can use public pressure to force Chinese authority to cave in, which in fact is extortion.

    That is the typical way westerners are doing business, if they can not profit under the current rules, then they will force you to change the rules. In the past, they initiated a war to force you, now they are utilizing their influence in public opinion to force you.
     
  14. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    There is no amount of pressure that will change the CCP's internet censorship. Google is in China to make money, it does that by offering services and ads. When their services are hacked making people affraid to use them and their ads are blocked , they don't make money. China's internet ad market wasnt worth $1 billion in 2008. Thanks to the stimulus plan it artificially increased to $3 billion. Once that spending stops, ad revenues will fall flat or decrease. With an unsubsidised market share of $3 per head, it doesn't become worth it. Compare that to France with an ad market share of $80 per head, Google is better off focusing on less censored and more profitable markets.

    Chinese opinion in favour of Google has more to do with freedom of access than anything else, secondly would be offering better services. China isn't profitable enough for them to waste their time and it is the CCP's censorship and lack of consumer spending that has made it so.
     
  15. nimo_cn

    nimo_cn Senior Member Senior Member

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    Apparently, Google fails to realize that, it had better hire you to do their PR job.
    It is a giant search engine, it has 100 million users in China, it thinks it can force China to bow because of that. But Google underestimates the resolution and determination of Chinese government, mostly the more you push her, the tougher she will be. So Chinese authority will never give up on this issue, even if now US government has been involved in.

    If CCP gave up this time, then more transnational corporations would jump up and play the same game to bargin with Chinese government and demand us to revise our laws to satisfy their requests so that they can make more money. Then it is another Opium War.

    China has the largest populattion of netizen, and you are telling that China is not a profitable internet market. What a joke!

    Google leaves China because it can not compete with another search engine Baidu. If Google had controlled Chinese search engine market, do you think it wants to leave? No way, on the contrary, it will beg to stay, even if China authority forces it to leave.

    Dont delude yourself that every Chinese mourns the leave of Google. You must have read too many reports from AFP or AP. Certainly, many Chinese feel it is a pity that Google is going to pull out of China, after all it possesses 100 million Chinese users and it is a famous company. But there are also many Chinese like me who applaud for its decision to leave, we hope it will get far far away from China.

    "思想有多远,谷歌你就滚多远"
    How far we can think, how far you Google should get away from us.
     
  16. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    CCP will never loosen up their controls on information they don't want people to see. The more people know the more they will find how intolerable their situation... leads to dissent.

    If CCP gives up anytime, they will find themselves out of power. Glasnost killed the USSR, it will kill the CCP too.

    The number of people doesn't make it the value of the advertising market, how much they spend does. 360 million Chinois internet users has a smaller market than 43 million French internet users... why? Because French consumers spend more by a wide margin.

    Nothing can compete in China if CCP doesn't want it to. The way they have been treating Google clarifies that.

    Party member?
     
  17. nimo_cn

    nimo_cn Senior Member Senior Member

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    If CCP wanted to do that, the first thing CCP would do is forbidding Chinese learning English. But the fact is English has been made a compulsory subject in China for decades, every Chinese student needs to learn English since they turn 12.
    Please explain that.

    Oh, really?
    It seems Baidu can compete with Google in China, and it has successfully beaten Google in Chinese internet market. That is what you called nothing can compete, because a west company lost this time? So every time it should be a west company being the winner that makes a fair competition?

    Baidu operates under the same rules in China. if Baidu can survive, why can not Google? It is Google's own fault that it sucks in Chinese market, and it should not blame Chinese laws for its failure in China.

    However powerful a transnational company is, it should obey the host nation's laws, even if the laws make it feel uncomfortable. If it fails to abide by the law, then it should leave. There is no other option such as challenging the law.

    Oh yeah, i am!
     
  18. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Learning English doesn't translate to freedom of information. Hell, even DPRK offers English courses.


    Baidu competed with Google to see who could be the best censor for the CCP... that is what Baidu won. Google doesn't have to prove to the world they can censor the internet better than Baidu. They have to prove they can provide the best search engine and they have done that the world over.

    Baidu is losing market share to Google even now.

    Baidu Market Share Slid, but Google Market Share Rose

    There is nothing keeping the CCP from revoking their license. If they don't like what Google is doing, kick them out. Google has one upped the CCP by making it their game. China accounts for 1% of Google's revenue and then the profit margins are low with transit fees; the PR that will come from standing up for free speech will more than make up for that pathetic loss. This was Google's plan from the start. Sorry you never realised that.

    Figured...
     
  19. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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    these guys are paranoid to the core scared of Tibetens :D

    In Rebuke of China, Focus Falls on Cybersecurity - NYTimes.com

    In early January, Tenzin Seldon, a 20-year-old Stanford student and Tibetan activist, was told by university officials to contact Google because her Gmail account had been hacked.

    Ms. Seldon, the Indian-born daughter of Tibetan refugees, said she immediately contacted David Drummond, Google’s chief legal officer.

    “David informed me that my account was hacked by someone in China,” Ms. Seldon said in a telephone interview. “They were concerned and asked whether they could see my laptop.”
     
  20. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Oh so the Tibetans have now teamed up with Google that explains why the reason google is pulling out is due to Chinese hackers and data theft??
     
  21. RPK

    RPK Indyakudimahan Senior Member

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    China begins monitoring billions of text messages as censorship increases - Telegraph

    Customers of China’s two largest mobile phone networks, China Mobile and China Unicom, have had their text-messaging service blocked after sending risqué texts, according to the state media.

    It comes as the country is embroiled in a row with Google over cyber attacks. On Tuesday the internet giant, said it may quit China because of concerns about the country’s recent increase in censorship.


    The Global Times, a government-run newspaper, said “everyone seems to be under watch”. Last year, the government vowed to suppress pornography on the internet and has now extended its campaign to mobile phones.

    China Mobile is the world’s biggest mobile phone company, with over 508 million customers. Its network handles 1.7 billion text messages a day.

    The latest development implies that Chinese censors have moved beyond monitoring of the internet and are now also spying on the country’s vast network of phones.

    The newspaper interviewed a civil servant, who expressed reservations over the policy. “We have a lot of private things in our mobile phones. If they monitor the messages, a lot of private things would be leaked,” said the man, who was named only as Mr Cao.

    The Southern Metropolis newspaper said a man from the Southern city of Dongguan recently had his phone blocked. China Mobile’s customer service informed the man that their computers had detected lewd words in his messages and that he would have to take his identity card to the local police station to reactivate the phone. He also had to furnish a letter guaranteeing that he would no longer disseminate inappropriate messages.

    China Mobile said that the company was complying with demands from the police to report “illegal” text messages with content that included pornography, violence, fraud, suggestions of terrorism, instigations to crime and gambling.

    The company said a single message that breached any of its filters would result in the blocking of the mobile phone involved.

    Yesterday Microsoft said it no plans to pull out of China dashing hopes that the software giant would support its rival Google in its stand against Chinese censorship of the internet.

    Asked if Microsoft had any plan to pull its business out of China, Steven Ballmer said “No.” before questioning the sudden urgency of Google’s complaints about attempts to hack Gmail accounts of human rights activists from inside China.

    “I don’t understand how that [a Google pull-out] helps anything. I don’t understand how that helps us and I don’t understand how that helps China,” he said.

    Google cited cyber attacks from within China as the final straw in a long-running battle against the Chinese authorities since setting up its Chinese operations in 2006.

    However Mr Ballmer, whose company’s search engine Bing could benefit if Google surrenders its 30 per cent share of the Chinese search market, questioned the significance of the cyber attacks which Google detected in December and affected more than 30 major corporations.

    “There are attacks every day. I don’t think there was anything unusual, so I don’t understand,” he said, “We’re attacked every day from all parts of the world and I think everybody else is too. We didn’t see anything out of the ordinary.”

    The Obama administration has given full support to Google, demanding an 'explanation’ for the hacking attacks which it said raised 'very serious concerns’ about both freedom of speech and the trust needed to underpins a globalised economy..

    “It seems to me that the principles that Google is trying to uphold are not just important in a moral or rights framework, but are also of very considerable economic importance,” said senior White Senior White House economic adviser Lawrence Summers on Thursday.

    China has so far shown no signs of giving ground over Google’s demand to be allowed to operate in China uncensored, insisting that web controls are essential to maintain the “stability and harmony” of the Chinese nation.

    Yesterday some of China’s most prominent human rights activists claimed that they had had their Google email accounts hacked.
     

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