The Agni-3 Vs Agni-5 Conundrum and some Questions

safriz

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A list of Questions here which i ask members to look into and write opinion.

1) Agni-3 has length of 17 meters Diameter of 2 meters, and weighs 22 Tons
Agni-5 has length of 17.5 Meters Diameter of 2 meters and weighs 50 Tons.

How could just 50 Cm increase in length made the Agni-5 more than twice heavier than Agni-3?

================================================================================

2) On Wikipedia page for Agni-3 the warhead size is mentioned as 2.5 Tons.
But later below on the same page under the description RV MK 4 or the description of Missile's Re-Entry Vehicle,it says the Weapon size is 600Kg to 1800 Kg. So that can be taken as the actual weight of the nuclear bomb and the rest is the weight of Re-Entry Vehicle including motors , electronics,fuel and shielding?
Going by that assumption if the bomb has maximum weight of 1800Kg but the missile Payload is mentioned at 2500Kg,then the RV weighs 700 Kg?
Link to Wiki Page in Question

While reading Wikipedia page about Agni-5 i noticed that it says Missile's warhead stage is still under development,meaning something better is on the way. But the current warhead capacity is stated as 1500 Kg
As unlike Agni-3 which has a very large space for Warhead,Agni-5 has a very small space for Warhead as the third stage occupied much of the triangular space on top of stage 2 (as shown in the pictures)
Does that mean the 1.5 Ton mentioned is the Nuclear bomb plus the Re-Entry Vehicle?
Going by what we read in Agni-3 case the RV is 700 KG but total payload capacity of Agni-5 is mentioned at 1500Kg. Then the actual Bomb weight must be 800 Kg?

====================================================================================


Some visual comparison and limits of stages on Agni-3 and Agni-5.

First Agni-5

agni5.png


Cable runners on each stage are clearly visible? The narrow linear tubular protrudes? The first stage cable runner ends just below where it says "A5" . So thats the limit of stage 1.
The second stage cable Runner starts just above the DRDO insignia and ends just below the Indian flag,so thats the limits of stage 2?
The thirds stage being tucked away in the triangular section on top has cable runner starting at the ring above Indian flag and ends at the Black cone . So that's the limit of Third stage.. I am assuming that this stage only fires up in the vaccum of space where there is no resistance of air,so despite being very small,adds to the range significantly.
The Warhead or the actual bomb is housed in the Black cone.

3) Since the Black Cone comprises of the Bomb and the shielding and there had to be a gap between the two . Can such a confined space carry 1.5 Tons if considering that the 1.5 ton payload mentioned on wiki is just the bomb weight excluding RV?

================================================================================

For interest sake here are the limits of Agni-3 stages and where the RV starts. watch the cable runners on the side.

W-7664l[1].jpg


It can be seen the space for warhead is far larger than what is available on A-5.

==============================================================================

P.S . Myself being of Pakistani origin taking pat in this thread will flare up emotions as it did previously and fill the thread with abuse instead of good discussion,so i will stay away but request members to come and write their analysis and arguments.
 
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tharun

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A list of Questions here which i ask members to look into and write opinion.

1) Agni-3 has length of 17 meters Diameter of 2 meters, and weighs 22 Tons
Agni-5 has length of 17.5 Meters Diameter of 2 meters and weighs 50 Tons.

How could just 50 Cm increase in length made the Agni-5 more than twice heavier than Agni-3?

================================================================================

2) On Wikipedia page for Agni-3 the warhead size is mentioned as 2.5 Tons.
But later below on the same page under the description RV MK 4 or the description of Missile's Re-Entry Vehicle,it says the Weapon size is 600Kg to 1800 Kg. So that can be taken as the actual weight of the nuclear bomb and the rest is the weight of Re-Entry Vehicle including motors , electronics,fuel and shielding?
Going by that assumption if the bomb has maximum weight of 1800Kg but the missile Payload is mentioned at 2500Kg,then the RV weighs 700 Kg?
Link to Wiki Page in Question

While reading Wikipedia page about Agni-5 i noticed that it says Missile's warhead stage is still under development,meaning something better is on the way. But the current warhead capacity is stated as 1500 Kg
As unlike Agni-3 which has a very large space for Warhead,Agni-5 has a very small space for Warhead as the third stage occupied much of the triangular space on top of stage 2 (as shown in the pictures)
Does that mean the 1.5 Ton mentioned is the Nuclear bomb plus the Re-Entry Vehicle?
Going by what we read in Agni-3 case the RV is 700 KG but total payload capacity of Agni-5 is mentioned at 1500Kg. Then the actual Bomb weight must be 800 Kg?

====================================================================================


Some visual comparison and limits of stages on Agni-3 and Agni-5.

First Agni-5

View attachment 12905

Cable runners on each stage are clearly visible? The narrow linear tubular protrudes? The first stage cable runner ends just below where it says "A5" . So thats the limit of stage 1.
The second stage cable Runner starts just above the DRDO insignia and ends just below the Indian flag,so thats the limits of stage 2?
The thirds stage being tucked away in the triangular section on top has cable runner starting at the ring above Indian flag and ends at the Black cone . So that's the limit of Third stage.. I am assuming that this stage only fires up in the vaccum of space where there is no resistance of air,so despite being very small,adds to the range significantly.
The Warhead or the actual bomb is housed in the Black cone.

3) Since the Black Cone comprises of the Bomb and the shielding and there had to be a gap between the two . Can such a confined space carry 1.5 Tons if considering that the 1.5 ton payload mentioned on wiki is just the bomb weight excluding RV?

================================================================================

For interest sake here are the limits of Agni-3 stages and where the RV starts. watch the cable runners on the side.

View attachment 12906

It can be seen the space for warhead is far larger than what is available on A-5.

==============================================================================

P.S . Myself being of Pakistani origin taking pat in this thread will flare up emotions as it did previously and fill the thread with abuse instead of good discussion,so i will stay away but request members to come and write their analysis and arguments.
Every thing that available on wiki is not correct.......no one will tell exact measurements..only few people in DRDO knows..use a little bit of brain
 

tharun

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@safriz Look at Agni-4 it is 20 meters...so knows one knows exact measurements of agni-5...every one who edited will be taken from different sources
Look at the pics it will show that agni-5 is bigger in size than others
 

tharun

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Next time you start a shit discussion make sure you take information from good source
 

hit&run

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He begs for technical discussion but drafts questions on unscientific premise.

All his initiatives give good insight about his education level.

For solving any Scientific/ technical problem the first and most important exercise is "framing the question". Last time he framed a question on India's SLBM by using some junior school markers and measurements of no scale or scientific unit. Not only that, the poor guy used picture of the wrong missile to start with.

Here in thread I haven't understood his question and have no time to waste on a fallacy called 'The only stupid question is the question that is never asked'.

The best I can say is that, A5 is heavy because we have packed more motors in small space :biggrin2:
 

hit&run

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I will request posters not to use profanity and bad language in this thread or any thread for that matter especially if there is no provocation.

I haven't understood his question. May be he will elaborate more with better references and pictures with scale. I am sure few posters who may have understood the gist of his argument will be able to answer.

Thanks
 

Indx TechStyle

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@safriz At first, I will ask you to stop using Wikipedia as your "source". Wikipedia is a very bad place when it comes for specifications and stats. It badly mixes up so many reports due to which corresponding specifications become very much biased.

Plus I have seen the condition of your previous thread and apologize from my friends. Please don't mind.
Now,
How could just 50 Cm increase in length made the Agni-5 more than twice heavier than Agni-3?
I think its 500 centimeters actually and not just 50 cm.
Agni 5 is a modified Agni-3 mounted with an extra stage to increase the range. Stages on Agni 5 may be small in length.
As unlike Agni-3 which has a very large space for Warhead,Agni-5 has a very small space for Warhead as the third stage occupied much of the triangular space on top of stage 2 (as shown in the pictures)
Does that mean the 1.5 Ton mentioned is the Nuclear bomb plus the Re-Entry Vehicle?
I don't think conical shape is preventing MIRV deployment. Yes large number of warheads can't be put inside but 3 to 5 small warheads won't be an issue.
@tharun


And now, you must also not forget that Agni 3 has two versions, advanced one has a CEP of just 40 metres which makes Agni 3 world's most accurate Intermediate range ballistic missile.
On the other hand, Agni 5 just got ready very recently and is to be modified and worked out a lot.
Other, Agni-5 may be carrying more powerful warheads, uses different sorts of metal and devices, motors/boosters.
Other suggestion I'm giving you monitor Agni-1P (improved Agni-1) and compare it with Agni-2.
Agni-5 is more advanced than in service A3 or improved A3 is even more advanced than A5.
I just explained about warhead and generation what I could do.

I know that @warrior monk, @Kunal Biswas and @Chinmoy know much better than me to explain you in details.
And I'm again telling you, don't use Wikipedia as source, instead use references and external links given inside Wikipedia.
Thank you.:namaste:
 

safriz

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@safriz Look at Agni-4 it is 20 meters...so knows one knows exact measurements of agni-5...every one who edited will be taken from different sources
Look at the pics it will show that agni-5 is bigger in size than others
Obviously neither you or me works for DRDO and don;'t have an official data sheet and can only make guess from publicly available material and stipulate.
About size of Agni 5 we can take this picture as reference.
Agniapproved295[1].jpg


The canister is a bit longer than the missile as it has to house the gas generator and possibly a booster (As ssen in test videos) .
The Agni-5 uses a Volvo FH/FM series tractor for towing the trailer,as seen here.

C0Sr-pCW8AAtFvV[1].jpg


From Volvo trucks specs i can see that the truck uses 22 Inch rim and the Tyres can be as big as 16.88 Inch in height. So the 22.5 Inch diameter rim has 16.88 Inch of tyre on all sides. The total width or height of Tyre + Rim will be
22.5+16.88+16.88 = 56.2 inches. (you can download Volvo FM truck manual for checking these numbers)

Referring back to the Agni-5 Canister trailer the Canister . the forward end of the canister reaches 6th axle when counting from the back. Also there is a two axle gap for Jacking up fittings. So total length of 6+2 Wheels will be
8 X 56.2 Inches? or 450.1 Inches.
Also the trailer axles have gap in between which are normally half the maximum tyre size . So the total approximate length up to sixth trailer axle will be.
450.1 X 1.5 = 675.2 Inches which is 17.145 meters.
So agni Canister is 17.1 Meter in length Give take 1.5 meters.
Of course there is a reasonable margin of error but these numbers can'rt be too far off from actual measurements as Truck trailer Rim and tyre sizes are standard all over the world,and here the calculations are being done on that.
 
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sayareakd

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Next time you start a shit discussion make sure you take information from good source
these are our strategic assets, which will be used as second strike, so dont expect us to put everything on net.........:rofl:
 

sayareakd

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I think its 500 centimeters actually and not just 50 cm.
Agni 5 is a modified Agni-3 mounted with an extra stage to increase the range. Stages on Agni 5 may be small in length.
:bounce:Agni 5 is anything but Modified Agni 3, that was the excuse given to test that time. World is also OK with Agni 3 as modified Agni 5, DRDO has been very smart using name game.

If you see Agni 1/2 and Agni 3 nothing is common, still all accepted it, same game for Agni5 and now soon to be launched Agni 6.

I think Agni 3 SLBM with MIRV is actually Agni 6. Wait for details to come.

 

lcafanboy

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these are our strategic assets, which will be used as second strike, so dont expect us to put everything on net.........:rofl:
Hathi ke daant khane ke kuch aur dikhane ke kuch aur hote hai. Par in porki gadhon Ko kaun bataye.
Abe porki gadhe yeh ICBM hai fireworks wala Nasr nahi. China ki bolti bandh hogayi hai aur gaand phat ke hath main aagayi hai kyonki unhe pata hai iski capabilities ka. Tere samajh ke bahar hai. Na muna na porkion ke samajh main nahin ayega isliye dimag pe jor na de thand rakh aur aram kar yeh wala sirf chinion ke liye hai porkion ke liye brahmos k15 aur agni 1 hi kafi hai.
 

IndianHawk

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Simply using dimensional calculation about something as complex as an ICBM doesn't reveal anything.
That too from incorrect sources.

A5 is supposed to be capable of delivering warheads as far as 8000 km (that too by Chinese experts:biggrin2:)

So yes purpose of a5 is precisely to carry small warheads over longer ranges.

Also while comparing the two missiles one must take into account alloys used and their density plus . Fuel quality improvements from previous versions etc.

I'm pretty sure A3 measurements must have changed in previous years .

If one has to compare ICBMs of different nations one will find that similar measurements do not result in similar range or warhead. Technological difference exist even in iterations of same missiles.

In the end missiles are strategic weapons every single one is designed keeping in mind different objectives be it range warhead size accuracy or jamming and re-entry capabilities.

So dimensional comparison is pointless.:truestory:
 

Indx TechStyle

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Obviously neither you or me works for DRDO and don;'t have an official data sheet and can only make guess from publicly available material and stipulate.
About size of Agni 5 we can take this picture as reference.
View attachment 12908

The canister is a bit longer than the missile as it has to house the gas generator and possibly a booster (As ssen in test videos) .
The Agni-5 uses a Volvo FH/FM series tractor for towing the trailer,as seen here.

View attachment 12909

From Volvo trucks specs i can see that the truck uses 22 Inch rim and the Tyres can be as big as 16.88 Inch in height. So the 22.5 Inch diameter rim has 16.88 Inch of tyre on all sides. The total width or height of Tyre + Rim will be
22.5+16.88+16.88 = 56.2 inches. (you can download Volvo FM truck manual for checking these numbers)

Referring back to the Agni-5 Canister trailer the Canister . the forward end of the canister reaches 6th axle when counting from the back. Also there is a two axle gap for Jacking up fittings. So total length of 6+2 Wheels will be
8 X 56.2 Inches? or 450.1 Inches.
Also the trailer axles have gap in between which are normally half the maximum tyre size . So the total approximate length up to sixth trailer axle will be.
450.1 X 1.5 = 675.2 Inches which is 17.145 meters.
So agni Canister is 17.1 Meter in length Give take 1.5 meters.
Of course there is a reasonable margin of error but these numbers can'rt be too far off from actual measurements as Truck trailer Rim and tyre sizes are standard all over the world,and here the calculations are being done on that.
Well, India utilizes homegrown Tata, Mahindra, AL trucks as well as imported Tata & Volvo.
The problem above is that the above model could be scaled down or dummy.:dude:
We don't even know version.

Most info is never published, like I'm tired of hitting head for nuclear bunkers.

Well, one person @Decklander, also known as "VSTOL JOCKEY" claims that he has worked for PSUs like DRDO and ARDE.
these are our strategic assets, which will be used as second strike, so dont expect us to put everything on net.........:rofl:
Hathi ke daant khane ke kuch aur dikhane ke kuch aur hote hai. Par in porki gadhon Ko kaun bataye.
Abe porki gadhe yeh ICBM hai fireworks wala Nasr nahi. China ki bolti bandh hogayi hai aur gaand phat ke hath main aagayi hai kyonki unhe pata hai iski capabilities ka. Tere samajh ke bahar hai. Na muna na porkion ke samajh main nahin ayega isliye dimag pe jor na de thand rakh aur aram kar yeh wala sirf chinion ke liye hai porkion ke liye brahmos k15 aur agni 1 hi kafi hai.
Yaaron, trolling na karo bas.
 

Chinmoy

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@safriz ......... Just one thing. A3 weights 48 tons.

https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/agni-3/

Moreover the most advance missile in Agni series till now is A4. A3 and A5 has been designed mainly for MIRV, whereas A4 is designed to have single MaRV.

At last, kindly see what I've replied regarding your post on A5 booster. A booster for 50 ton missile would not fall off like a sheet of metal.
 

sayareakd

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agni 3 was tested in 2006 and Agni 5 on 2012, so good 6 years of difference and new tech has come.........
 

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