Thai Chinese arms gunrunner to be extradited to India

[Ray]

Thai court okays extradition of gun runner supplying Chinese arms to Naga rebels


NEW DELHI: In a shot in the arm for the Indian security establishment, a Thailand court on Monday approved the extradition of a Thai gunrunner suspected of selling Chinese arms to Naga rebels. Wuthikorn Naruenartwanich alias Willy, who was arrested by Thai authorities in September last year on a request from India, had allegedly struck a deal worth $1 million to supply arms from China to NSCN (IM).

The probe, being carried out by National Investigation Agency (NIA), has got Chinese defence giant Norinco in its crosshairs as a subsidiary of the company was to supply the arms. The consignment, consisting of over 1,000 guns apart from rocket launchers, was to be shipped to India via Bangladesh.

Willy's extradition to India will help agencies unravel the arms supply chain between China and Indian insurgent groups and also provide crucial details about Bangladeshi links in the chain. This is the first successful extradition from Thailand after India signed an extradition treaty with the country last May after about 20 years of negotiations.

The development is significant as it opens doors for further cooperation between the two countries on the security front. Importantly, Thailand has been a hub of Indian underworld gangs with both Dawood Ibrahim and Chhota Rajan having wide networks in the country. It was in Thailand that Dawood henchmen attacked Chhota Rajan in 2000. Even Indian Mujahideen had been planning to cultivate networks in Thailand in order to get sophisticated weapons from there.

Confirming the approval of extradition, Indian government sources said Willy has been given 30 days time to appeal against the order in a higher court. Sources said the order came about thanks to robust evidence produced by NIA against Willy in the court, a fact acknowledged by the court as well.

NIA got hold of emails exchanged between NSCN (IM) leaders and Willy about the impending deal of 1,000 fire arms including AK rifles, machine guns and rocket launchers where transaction cost for procurement of arms has negotiated from $2 million to $1 million. It also has evidence of $7 lakh paid to a Chinese firm by Willy for the deal. The middleman who introduced NSCN (IM) leaders to Willy is now a witness in the case.

According to the NIA charge-sheet, NSCN (IM) got in touch with Willy after it failed to procure arms through militia. Willy put them in touch with one Yuthna, a representative of Chinese firm TCL. Home ministry sources said TCL was a intermediary that was to purportedly procure arms from Chinese defence giant Norinco.

For the deal, NSCN (IM)'s chief arms procurer Anthony Shimray had paid $1 lakh to Willy in May 2009 and later the money was sent to TCL. NIA has electronic receipt of the payment. Shimray also received $800,000 in Bangkok from NSCN (IM) out of which $700,000 was paid to TCL via Willy. Rest of the sum was paid to shipping agent Kittichai of Intermarine Shipping Company of Bangkok.

The transaction, however, never materialized as situation in Bangladesh was not favourable to NSCN (IM) at that time and shortly after Shimray was arrested by Indian agencies in September, 2007.

Thai court okays extradition of gun runner supplying Chinese arms to Naga rebels - The Times of India

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Some Chinese posters claimed outright that China does not support insurgency in India.

And they wanted proof.

Here is the proof.

No Chinese arms manufacturer can sell weapons without their Govt knowing, especially since China is very sensitive to the rebellion that rages sporadically in Tibet and Xinjiang.

Further, would China allow its arms manufacturer to seel weapons to Baloch insurgents, when China is itself propping up Pakistan?

 

[Srinivas_K]

India - Thailand bilateral relationship is getting stronger!!

 

[Ray]

It is time that India takes Narashimha Rao's Look East policy more seriously.

We must strengthen out neighbourhood and then look beyond.

 

[Sea Eagle]

India - Thailand bilateral relationship is getting stronger!!

He will hit cross-roads.. Supporting Myanmar and Thailand at the same time

 

[Ray]

Somehow, I have not been able to open the link to

India - Thailand bilateral relationship is getting stronger!!

 

[Srinivas_K]

He will hit cross-roads.. Supporting Myanmar and Thailand at the same time

Bilateral relations are a different scenario Dude!!

 

[t_co]

In spite of your selective editing to the contrary, all the article shows is that a Thai representative of TCL (Yuthna) was paid to introduce Norinco to a Thai arms dealer (Willy) - and the only source that demonstrates that the Thai TCL rep knew Norinco (the sole Chinese connection in the story) is the Indian Home Ministry, hardly an unbiased source.

There is no record of Norinco ever meeting Willy, okaying the sale, even considering the sale, or even knowing that the NSCN IM wanted weapons.

You'll need a lot more proof before you can say that China offers armed support to the Naxalite insurgency in India.

 

[amoy]

@t_co Naga insurgents in this case not Naxalite (Maoist/tribals).

actually rather than winding all the way through Thailand and BD, Naga like Asom in NE could have easy access to supplies from their cross-border kinsmen such as Kachin and Wa States who're connected with Chinese.

Sent from my 5910 using Tapatalk 2

 

[bennedose]

@t_co Naga insurgents in this case not Naxalite (Maoist/tribals).

actually rather than winding all the way through Thailand and BD, Naga like Asom in NE could have easy access to supplies from their cross-border kinsmen such as Kachin and Wa States who're connected with Chinese.

Sent from my 5910 using Tapatalk 2

India has, in recent decades, been avoiding direct cross-border arming of Tibetans. What might be happening indirectly, I don't know. In exchange China also has tended to keep away from direct contacts - but Chinese weapons have been slipping in via Pakistan, Bangladesh and Myanmar.

Of course there will be payback at some level - notice that major terror attacks in Pakistan have become quiescent. The way to ramp them up is to provoke India with a terror attack or two. Uighurs and Tibetans are India's "natural allies" as long as they are willing to pester the Chinese and the more that the Chinese do to suppress them, the more they will look for support from anyone.

 

[amoy]

India has, in recent decades, been avoiding direct cross-border arming of Tibetans. What might be happening indirectly, I don't know. In exchange China also has tended to keep away from direct contacts - but Chinese weapons have been slipping in via Pakistan, Bangladesh and Myanmar.

Of course there will be payback at some level - notice that major terror attacks in Pakistan have become quiescent. The way to ramp them up is to provoke India with a terror attack or two. Uighurs and Tibetans are India's "natural allies" as long as they are willing to pester the Chinese and the more that the Chinese do to suppress them, the more they will look for support from anyone.

Indian support for China's separatism is no news since its inception. Quid pro quo then we're even-steven.


Naga can procure easily from neighboring Kachin State. No need of a Thai smokescreen.

Nagas In Myanmar (Burma)

And Kachin is the same as Jingpo Chinese

 

[Ray]

In spite of your selective editing to the contrary, all the article shows is that a Thai representative of TCL (Yuthna) was paid to introduce Norinco to a Thai arms dealer (Willy) - and the only source that demonstrates that the Thai TCL rep knew Norinco (the sole Chinese connection in the story) is the Indian Home Ministry, hardly an unbiased source.

There is no record of Norinco ever meeting Willy, okaying the sale, even considering the sale, or even knowing that the NSCN IM wanted weapons.

You'll need a lot more proof before you can say that China offers armed support to the Naxalite insurgency in India.

And the Chinese Govt let any old arms dealer have a ball?

May I request you to read The Bear Trap by Brig Yousaf of the ISI, where he has written about the Chinese arms support to the Mujahideens operating through the ISI against the Soviets.

He has stated that while other donor were not too concerned, the Chinese were meticulous and required to be informed of each round of ammunition and its supply to which party of Mujh!

Therefore, to believe that the Chinese Govt knew nothing about the End User is not true to the way the Chinese Govt operates.

 

[bennedose]

Indian support for China's separatism is no news since its inception. Quid pro quo then we're even-steven.
Naga can procure easily from neighboring Kachin State. No need of a Thai smokescreen.
]

Just because Chinese arms can be obtained across the border does not mean that they are not being obtained via a circuitous route. Claiming that the Thailand route cannot exist because a direct route exists is naive - a story that needs to be told to schoolchildren.

 

[amoy]

Just because Chinese arms can be obtained across the border does not mean that they are not being obtained via a circuitous route. Claiming that the Thailand route cannot exist because a direct route exists is naive - a story that needs to be told to schoolchildren.

Multiple routes existing - is it news?. Look into the root cause for Nagaland movement Naga Peace Process

This southern stretch is now on the other side only due to the arbitrary boundaries that were created by the Indian state that chose to retain the British occupation of the historical political entity 'Nagalim' (the homeland of the Naga people) and its division between India and Burma (Myanmar), after its own independence from colonial rule. What was started by the British in the first part of the 19th century was continued and further exacerbated by India during the last six decades.

Nagalim today stands divided between India occupied Naga territory and the Burmese occupied Naga territory, the two parts separated by the Chindwin river, the international boundary line formalized as recently as 1972. As part of its occupation strategy, the Indian state further divided the Naga area under its control, despite it being a contiguous area, into (parts of) four states: Nagaland, Assam, Manipur and Arunachal Pradesh. Likewise, the Nagas under Burmese occupation were divided between Sagaing sub-division and Kachin state.

 

[no smoking]

After reading this thread, I really started to worry if our friend- RAY is suffering some kind of brain damage, otherwise we can't explain why he uses this story to support his accusation.

There are some points I would like to discuss:
First, do you know what kind of business TCL engages? Civilian electronic, such TV, mobile, etc. Since when TCL becomes the susidiary of Norinco? I like this part :"Home ministry sources said TCL was a intermediary that was to purportedly procure arms from Chinese defence giant Norinco. " A gun producer use a billion dollars size TV producer to sell weapons for them, that is funniest story I have ever heard.

Second, our india security department got lot evidence about NSCN and Willy, but no mention of any evidence that TCL or Norinco getting involve with NSCN? Not even the evidence that Willy tell TCL or Norinco the customer information? Isn't that wird if you are accusing that China is the mastermind of this deal?

 

[bennedose]

After reading this thread, I really started to worry if our friend- RAY is suffering some kind of brain damage, otherwise we can't explain why he uses this story to support his accusation.

There are some points I would like to discuss:

If Ray has brain damage why do you feel you need to discuss something?

Let me answer that.
1. You are mad enough at Ray to want to say something about him to make yourself feel better. How cute. The li'l Chinese single-child has a tantrum
2. The need to "discuss" suggests that what Ray posts causes you enough discomfort to go on the defensive. The brain damage bit is now forgotten because you have finished cursing Ray and the post still pinches your backside enough for you to go "squawwwwk"

 

[t_co]

If Ray has brain damage why do you feel you need to discuss something?

Let me answer that.
1. You are mad enough at Ray to want to say something about him to make yourself feel better. How cute. The li'l Chinese single-child has a tantrum
2. The need to "discuss" suggests that what Ray posts causes you enough discomfort to go on the defensive. The brain damage bit is now forgotten because you have finished cursing Ray and the post still pinches your backside enough for you to go "squawwwwk"

Benne is reverting to his old tricks again - when he can't attack the logic or the points @no smoking is raising, he attacks the motive and the psychology to incite a flame war.

@mods @pmaitra . Not sure if this is what you guys want in terms of debate on DFI

 

[t_co]

After reading this thread, I really started to worry if our friend- RAY is suffering some kind of brain damage, otherwise we can't explain why he uses this story to support his accusation.

There are some points I would like to discuss:
First, do you know what kind of business TCL engages? Civilian electronic, such TV, mobile, etc. Since when TCL becomes the susidiary of Norinco? I like this part :"Home ministry sources said TCL was a intermediary that was to purportedly procure arms from Chinese defence giant Norinco. " A gun producer use a billion dollars size TV producer to sell weapons for them, that is funniest story I have ever heard.

The idea that Willy could realistically buy small arms through a TCL rep is about as insane as trying the Apple store for semtex.

Second, our india security department got lot evidence about NSCN and Willy, but no mention of any evidence that TCL or Norinco getting involve with NSCN? Not even the evidence that Willy tell TCL or Norinco the customer information? Isn't that wird if you are accusing that China is the mastermind of this deal?

Exactly. The only source that touches on TCL or Norinco is a source in Home Ministry - and even that source doesn't say that Norinco or TCL knew what arms were being requested or who they were being ordered for.

Finally, Ray is trying to use a 20 year book about 30-year old actions to somehow state that the Chinese government keeps extremely detailed knowledge of its arms end users. Unfortunately for Ray, that doesn't prove anything since he still can't assert that Norinco even knew of the request. How does he know that Norinco would have approved the transfer once it finished its investigations?

 

[p2prada]

In spite of your selective editing to the contrary, all the article shows is that a Thai representative of TCL (Yuthna) was paid to introduce Norinco to a Thai arms dealer (Willy) - and the only source that demonstrates that the Thai TCL rep knew Norinco (the sole Chinese connection in the story) is the Indian Home Ministry, hardly an unbiased source.

There is no record of Norinco ever meeting Willy, okaying the sale, even considering the sale, or even knowing that the NSCN IM wanted weapons.

You'll need a lot more proof before you can say that China offers armed support to the Naxalite insurgency in India.

You are walking on thin ice. No country ever extradites their own citizen to another without solid proof of having caused harm to the other country.

The conviction in the court is plenty enough for proof. And the extradition is beyond plenty.

It is very well known that Chinese arms are making their way to India.

 

[t_co]

You are walking on thin ice. No country ever extradites their own citizen to another without solid proof of having caused harm to the other country.

The conviction in the court is plenty enough for proof. And the extradition is beyond plenty.

It is very well known that Chinese arms are making their way to India.

Except the proof is that Willy was trying to get arms for the NSCN. Willy is Thai. How does his conviction prove that Norinco knew what was going on or was even contacted?

 

[t_co]

You are walking on thin ice. No country ever extradites their own citizen to another without solid proof of having caused harm to the other country.

The conviction in the court is plenty enough for proof. And the extradition is beyond plenty.

It is very well known that Chinese arms are making their way to India.

Also, very 'well known' by whom? Hyperbolic journalists or paranoiac natsec hawks?