Tense Minutes Before F16 pilot Ejects Over Serbia, Hit by SAM

Discussion in 'Military Aviation' started by asianobserve, Nov 25, 2013.

  1. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    By David Cenciotti
    The Aviationist
    November 25, 2013

    [​IMG]


    The Aviationist » The last tense minutes of a fighter pilot about to eject from an F-16 hit by enemy fire over Serbia
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
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  3. Blackwater

    Blackwater Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    is it the same episode on which Hollywood movie was made"""behind enemy lines""????
     
  4. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    No. Behind enemy lines is based on an incident in the first Bosnian intervention of NATO in 1995.

    It's interesting how calm the pilot in that recording is.
     
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  5. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    Pathetic. These guys have no situational awareness and no postion awareness. Totally dependent on their dabba (FMS). Imagine the pilot is not even aware as to what his position is once his dabba goes dead.
    A good fighter pilot always knows where he is and what he is doing and always has his DR position in his mind.
     
  6. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    He was making sure that his location is precisely picked up by the other F16s and I think there was an AWACS so that the Combat SAR can be guided by precise coordinates. In a combat situation it would not be easy to locate a down pilot based on estimates of his location.
     
  7. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    I suggest that you pls go thru the video again. It is a very damning story about USAF. The AWAC does not know where this guy is, his other buddies from the same formation do not know where he is. They somehow managed to get a lock on him to get his position. The AWAC still has no clue where this guy is. he himself does not know where he is. And finally the so called super radars of USAF are exposed, AWAC & F-16 have troble locating one of their own who is operating right under their nose and beside them. WOW, what an outstanding air force?
    The cool comments from the downed pilot shud not be mistaken for his professionalism. This is how most fighter pilots behave-very cool. But he has no clue of where he is-that gives away how stupid he is. In my first ejection from a Kiran in 1988, I also spoke that calmly to my formation leader while my aircraft was on fire and disintegrating and finally blew up over sea off Goa.
     
  8. Shirman

    Shirman Regular Member

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    I remember a very funny real incident i was in Israel (Tel aviv) when the entire Bosnian/Kosovo intervention happened in 1995-99 studying my majors when one of the nato Mirage-2000 was hit down by an Igla Vshorad

    heres the wikipedia info :- During Operation Deliberate Force, on August 30, 1995; a French Mirage 2000D was shot down over Pale with an Igla fired by air defence units of the Army of Republika Srpska.[9] The pilots were captured and freed in December 1995.[10]
    this shady Russian East-European arms dealer shouted on top of his voice in the Cafe where we were having lunch (i think he was drunk) claiming he supplied the Igla missiles to the Bosnian serbs to shoot down Nato jets......i mean cursing and claiming an enemy of Nato airforce in Public in a U.S. Allied country in front of news TV and in front of every one...........:lol::rolleyes:

    by the way the Serbs were very innovative as compared to Iraqis in 1991 especially in V-shorad and Sr-sam warfare.......i remember some KItchen made crude sr-sam shot down a Nato f-16.............i'll post the pic of it if i find it some where..............it was the father of Raytheon Slamraam (surface launched Amraam) , Rafael Spyder Sr-sam, surface launched r-77 Sr-sam and Norwegian NASAMS................
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2013
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  9. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    I think you did not read the subtitiles. After his engine shut, somebody contacted him (it's not clear who contacted him): "three can you hear me" (5:49). To which the pilot in trouble replied: "got you lound and clear (5:50)." Then the pilot asked the person: "roger do you have me on radar" (5:52). The latter replied: "hammer three magic five five two six zero twenty miles westbound" (5:59), obviously these are radar coordinates. Then at 7:19 after back and forth conversation on his position and the radar lock on another jet the pilot of the stricken plane asked that his position be not mentioned in the radio anymore" "now don't my position anymore." It must be noted that the F16 pilots are communicating on VHF on a General Aviation frequency 123.45 which can easily be monitored by the Serbian forces. Then the final radio transmission of the pilot was not really a question but another reminder to get a lock on his position: "ok boys ya got a lock on me?" (there's should be no question mark here). Then I assumed after that radio transmission the pilot already ejected.

    All the time the plane was being tracked down. The pilot of the stricken plane understandably kept on making sure that the AWACS and his other buddies have a constant fix on his position which could only be to ensure that the COmabt SAR are given a precise coordinates (indeed he was later on picked up by Combat SAR according to the article). There's nothing damning there, you wish there's something damning so that you have an excuse to start ranting against USAF again... :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2013
  10. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    Regarding not knowing where he is, it's understandable since he lost his navigation equipments: "can you say your posit? (6:01)," "negative lost everything" (6:04). Obviously, he was more concerned on telling the other members of the group that his navigation equipments have shut down than giving guesswork on his position. Then the other person voluntarily updated him on his position (the previous position was @ 5:59 was "five five two six zero twenty miles westbound"): "I've got a track bat two (AWACS?) five five twenty-two 20000 westbound" (6:07). Clearly, they always had a fix on his position.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2013
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  11. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    One of the F-16 pilots did manage to track him but only for a short duration and that F-16 pilot transmitted the position of the stricken F-16 to the AWAC. my POV is that AWAC, the F-16 formation and the pilots individually are supposed to know their positions and that of eachother at any given time. This video shows the total confusion regarding the position of the stricken F-16 which they did manage to solve.
     
  12. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    I don't think there's confusion on his location right from the start. He was constantly being feed of his coordinates. What the pilot of the stricken aircraft kept on repeating was for the rest of the group and AWACS to get constantly updated fixes on his position (as he was gliding), obviously in preparation for the SAR.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2013
  13. death.by.chocolate

    death.by.chocolate Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Did you fly anything with a radar? How about formation flights at night - radar "tied"? Just so you know after Lt. Col. David Goldfein (Hammer 3) lost his engine he said "hammer three magic bulls eye positive able" - bulls eye is an agreed upon (mission briefing) reference land mark or terrain feature. If the flight was over Paris, the Eiffel tower may be designated 'bull eye' during the mission briefing. Pilots in that flight call out their position from bulls eye (example Eiffel Tower). So when hammer three said bulls eye positive able after loosing his engine (power and instruments) he knew where he was from bulls eye but he did not know where he was going. It is not unusual for a wounded pilot flying in darkness to be disoriented. Lt. Col. David Goldfein took shrapnel through his thigh when his F-16 was struck by the SAM, he lost engine, instrument and power without power the F-16 is unflyable.

    CJ pilots on wild weasel missions (SAM hunting) do not (radar) track any element in the flight. This is to avoid RWR false alarms from friendly fighters so when a hostile radar locks on the pilot does not ignore the warning. It took sometime for the rest of the flight to track hammer three, remember hammer three is loosing altitude so it takes a while to obtain target track at the correct radar antenna elevation.

    On the whole I think Hammer three and his flight handled the situation exceptionally well by USAF standards. And AWACS had a track on hammer 3 I'm not sure why you say it did not?
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2013
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  14. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    @ death by chocolate

    Long time no hear.
     
  15. death.by.chocolate

    death.by.chocolate Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Yes, no one talks about the F/A-18 anymore - just kidding :)
     
  16. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    You should visit more often to contest our local Frenchman's open marketing...
     
  17. death.by.chocolate

    death.by.chocolate Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Yes the French marketing juggernaut, I am convinced most of these guys are paid for their time. I might join them for the right price :)
    I can sing praise of all things French ..anyone listening?
     
  18. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    They have convinced quiet a lot from the crowd here that their soon to be acquired Rafale is superior to the F22...
     
  19. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    I hope you know that IN sea harriers had Bluefox radar. Most controls of radars are located on HOTAS and they have set search modes which can be changed by flick of a switch from HOTAS. I do know that F-16 has a very good radar and it does not have manual scanning system. even if radar was kept off, they are kept at Hot Standby which means they can be switched to full transmission power in fraction of a second. So your argument about radar is wrong when you say that it took time for F-16 pilot to set his antenna properly to find the guy. in normal search mode or track while scan mode or super search mode, the radar automatically changes the antenna angle to cover the widest possible air space for that particular mode.
    Regarding reporting positions, yes we also have the same system wherein we establish a reporting point and that is known to the pilots of the formation and other ac flying in that mission. Everyone reports his position w.r.t that point and so easy to locate a friendly/hostile.
    But the AWAC was in the area and we have auto track system for airborne targets and our own are very clearly identified and tagged on the scope. It is surprising that AWAC also did not know the position of this F-16 till relayed by another F-16 pilot who managed a brief lock on the stricken ac.
    My post was about this confusion of position of the stricken ac. A good pilot always maintain his DR position-dead reckoning position in his brain which is based on course flown, speed maintained and time lapsed and we keep updating our brain with relevent inputs from our navigation sensors. It becomes all the more important when flying at night as you have hardly any ground clue available to update your sensors navigation accuracy or to orientate yourself from ground position. But AWAC does not have such a limitation, they maintain very accurate position info of own fighters as they are supposed to direct them to the incoming hostile ac. But here is a case wherein even the AWAC had no clue. This indeed makes it a very sorry state of affairs.
     
  20. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    Well I do not know if anyone is paid here but in certain departments which I am willing to debate with you Rafale is superior to F-22.
     
  21. death.by.chocolate

    death.by.chocolate Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Perhaps, but you seem convinced the USAF is a sorry state of affairs based on one event which occurred in the fog of war under fire. I am very surprised a former naval aviator of the esteemed IN is prepared to render judgment based on youtube video of radio chatter.

    Your argument about full transmission power is valid if the stricken F-16 was in the radars field of view. Considering weasels don't fly formation over hostile SAM sites it isn't a surprise to me to learn that the other ships in the flight were not oriented to pick up the stricken F-16 quick enough to meet your expectations.

    You claim the AWACS did not know where the stricken F-16 was, I did not hear or see anything in the video to indicate this was the case.
     

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