Tejas Mark 3

[ninja85]

MK3 is under paper for now & It will be put in practice after MK2 get inducted ..

is mark 3 is AMCA? because i think they said there will be no mark 3 of LCA.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Care to read full article posted in first page at first post ..

is mark 3 is AMCA? because i think they said there will be no mark 3 of LCA.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Maybe a pure interceptor with 2 BVRAAMs and 2 WVRAAMs only, beside the air intake, where the Y duct tapers down to the engine.

Come on, why would IAF go back to era of role-specific fighters ? It's got to be a full-fledged multi-role, though it might be more optimized for a particular role. I would prefer to see an omni-role like Rafale (chhota packet-bada dhamaka) in an enlarged LCA airframe

 

[arnabmit]

None of the 5th gen crafts today are really multi-role. All are either pure interceptors or interceptor with a couple of light bombs. None of the 5th gen airframes today have internal weapon bays big enough for true ground strike role. 5th gen fighters in the foreseeable future would remain in interceptor/Sead/Air Superiority/Bomber Escort roles.

Come on, why would IAF go back to era of role-specific fighters ? It's got to be a full-fledged multi-role, though it might be more optimized for a particular role. I would prefer to see an omni-role like Rafale (chhota packet-bada dhamaka) in an enlarged LCA airframe

 

[happy]

This model was designed with two K-9 kaveri engines with around super cruising capacity with just a dry thrust of 2x54 kn (108 Kn dry thrust )

and around mach -2 top speeds with 2x80 kn(160 Kn after burner or wet thrust ) in mind .

Now reports are most of the issues with Kaveri K-9 model are refined and it will be entering flight validation phase in a year or so time.

Some reports about DRML transferring the Single Crystal Blades (which have higher temp withstanding capacity and longer MTBO hours ) to Koraput Kanpur unit of HAL for producing the engine blades of AL series of engine for Su-30 MKI.

Do we have dedicated facility for Kaveri tests which might be similar to the widely publicized cryogenic engine test facility of gslv?

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Come on, why would IAF go back to era of role-specific fighters ? It's got to be a full-fledged multi-role, though it might be more optimized for a particular role. I would prefer to see an omni-role like Rafale (chhota packet-bada dhamaka) in an enlarged LCA airframe

None of the 5th gen crafts today are really multi-role. All are either pure interceptors or interceptor with a couple of light bombs. None of the 5th gen airframes today have internal weapon bays big enough for true ground strike role. 5th gen fighters in the foreseeable future would remain in interceptor/Sead/Air Superiority/Bomber Escort roles.

That's why I said more optimized for a particular role. Btw, none of the F-22, F-35 & PAKFA is a pure interceptor . Infact, F-35 is better in ground-strike role than A2A engagements (especially, dog-fights are big-No for JSF).

IAF would continue with light-medium-heavy multi-roles. Just that the Tejas' stealth variant would continue to have constraints on payload, range & endurance due to its design philosophy. To overcome that, ADA needs to start afresh.

 

[rvjpheonix]

None of the 5th gen crafts today are really multi-role. All are either pure interceptors or interceptor with a couple of light bombs. None of the 5th gen airframes today have internal weapon bays big enough for true ground strike role. 5th gen fighters in the foreseeable future would remain in interceptor/Sead/Air Superiority/Bomber Escort roles.

F 35 is pretty much a bomb truck. It most probably wont get into dogfights with most modern fighters.

 

[ersakthivel]

Come on, why would IAF go back to era of role-specific fighters ? It's got to be a full-fledged multi-role, though it might be more optimized for a particular role. I would prefer to see an omni-role like Rafale (chhota packet-bada dhamaka) in an enlarged LCA airframe

This omni and multi are maerketting tricks. All modern fighters are Air superiority fighters with long range stand off ground attack PGMs for strike role

 

[TrueSpirit1]

This omni and multi are maerketting tricks. All modern fighters are Air superiority fighters with long range stand off ground attack PGMs for strike role

Well, it is not Marketing alone. There is logic.

Omnirole implies...a balanced multirole aircraft.

Omnirole Capability basically means:

Being able to instantly switch missions, from a coercion mission (strike force) to a preventive mission (a dissuasive low-altitude, high-speed show of force), or to cancel a mission until the last second; and

Survivability, that is the capability to survive in a dense threat environment thanks to stealthiness and/ or to advanced electronic warfare systems. The Rafale is Omnirole by design, and, with its multi-sensor data fusion, combines all these advantages.

From the beginning, Rafale was designed to replace 7 types of aircraft in operation. Imagine, 7 different air-craft models in French Air Force with specific missions had their roles absorbed in the Rafale. Leading engineers were asked to ensure that Rafale has capabilities for:

Air-defence / air-superiority,
Reconnaissance,
Close air support,
Air-to-ground precision strike/ interdiction,
Anti-ship attacks,
Nuclear strikes. Rafale would serve the French Armed Forces "until 2040 at least."

Its Cockpit provides for everything that aircrews can expect from an Omnirole fighter: a wide field of view at the front, on both sides, and at the rear, a superior agility, an increased G-protection with 29° tilted seats, and an efficient air conditioning system demonstrated under all climates. IAF pilots swoon over it.

Basically, "Omni role" fighter is a multi role fighter that is not primarily designed for A2A, with secondary A2G capabilities, but is meant to be more balanced and versatile by the design itself. While Tejas was designed primarily to be an interceptor, with secondary strike capabilities, it is not an "Omni role" fighter.

For example: Jaguar and LCA in a strike configs have only basic self defence capabilities and would require additional fighter escorts to fulfill their roles but it is not so in case of a Rafale. See below:

Jaguar in Ground Strike Role

Tejas in a similar config

Rafale

So, Rafale is omni-role for a reason, actually multiple reasons. It is really easy to switch, reset and run a wide range of missions in constantly changing scenarios, even during a single sortie. So, it is actaully capable of performing different complex combat assignments simultaneously which is a rare & tested/proven capability. In this respect, it is significantly better than all existing fighters (non-stealth).

So, lets not even begin to compare Tejas with Rafale. Both are different class. Apple & oranges.

 

[no smoking]

Good, Mark 2 is still on the drawing board, now Indian scientists already started to talk about Mark 3!

If this guy thinks that composite material is the most important factor regarding "stealth", we all know either he has no idea how to develp a stealth fighter or once again he tries to understate the difficulty in this project.

 

[pmaitra]

Good, Mark 2 is still on the drawing board, now Indian scientists already started to talk about Mark 3!

If this guy thinks that composite material is the most important factor regarding "stealth", we all know either he has no idea how to develp a stealth fighter or once again he tries to understate the difficulty in this project.

Why don't you tell us what "the most important factor regarding 'stealth'" is?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Read the first page, First post then you may comment, Knee jerking with such immature comments does derail threads ..

Good, Mark 2 is still on the drawing board, now Indian scientists already started to talk about Mark 3!

If this guy thinks that composite material is the most important factor regarding "stealth", we all know either he has no idea how to develp a stealth fighter or once again he tries to understate the difficulty in this project.

 

[ersakthivel]

Well, it is not Marketing alone. There is logic.

Omnirole implies...a balanced multirole aircraft.

Omnirole Capability basically means:

Being able to instantly switch missions, from a coercion mission (strike force) to a preventive mission (a dissuasive low-altitude, high-speed show of force), or to cancel a mission until the last second; and

Survivability, that is the capability to survive in a dense threat environment thanks to stealthiness and/ or to advanced electronic warfare systems. The Rafale is Omnirole by design, and, with its multi-sensor data fusion, combines all these advantages.

From the beginning, Rafale was designed to replace 7 types of aircraft in operation. Imagine, 7 different air-craft models in French Air Force with specific missions had their roles absorbed in the Rafale. Leading engineers were asked to ensure that Rafale has capabilities for:

Air-defence / air-superiority,
Reconnaissance,
Close air support,
Air-to-ground precision strike/ interdiction,
Anti-ship attacks,
Nuclear strikes. Rafale would serve the French Armed Forces "until 2040 at least."

Its Cockpit provides for everything that aircrews can expect from an Omnirole fighter: a wide field of view at the front, on both sides, and at the rear, a superior agility, an increased G-protection with 29° tilted seats, and an efficient air conditioning system demonstrated under all climates. IAF pilots swoon over it.

Basically, "Omni role" fighter is a multi role fighter that is not primarily designed for A2A, with secondary A2G capabilities, but is meant to be more balanced and versatile by the design itself. While Tejas was designed primarily to be an interceptor, with secondary strike capabilities, it is not an "Omni role" fighter.

For example: Jaguar and LCA in a strike configs have only basic self defence capabilities and would require additional fighter escorts to fulfill their roles but it is not so in case of a Rafale. See below:

Jaguar in Ground Strike Role

Tejas in a similar config

Rafale

So, Rafale is omni-role for a reason, actually multiple reasons. It is really easy to switch, reset and run a wide range of missions in constantly changing scenarios, even during a single sortie. So, it is actaully capable of performing different complex combat assignments simultaneously which is a rare & tested/proven capability. In this respect, it is significantly better than all existing fighters (non-stealth).

So, lets not even begin to compare Tejas with Rafale. Both are different class. Apple & oranges.

tejas was primarily intended to be an multi role fighter from the time it was designed in 1992. Just because it was designed to replace Mig-21 lot of people think it is an interceptor.

The MMr radar allows tejas to all type of missions RAFALE can do .Nap of the earth flying, multi rach and tandem pylons help it to carry three or four smart bombs and 4 long range air to air BVR missiles along with three of four smart bombs and a center line fuel tank.

if you still have any dubt , you can go to TARMAK 007 , where just days before Group captain Suneet krishna , (who has flown Mirage-2000 and all other fighters in IAF before he became chief test pilot of tejas at NTSE) clearly saying that tejas is a swing role fighter same as RAFALE.

No one is going to design dedicate low level bombers like JAG and SU-27 with simple straight wings basically suited to low level flying and straffing ground targets any more , because they can be quickly shot down with a bevy of shoulder fired quick reaction air to air missiles,

SO all fighters are some sort of delta with long range stand off Precision Guided Munition that release their ground strike load from a safe distance away from the well defended ground targets,

RAFALE guys suggest it is an omni role. But tejas too can do all the same once, With in 100 seconds it carried out laser guided bomb attack on a ground target in and launched a couple of air to air missiles in the recently concluded LIVEFIST exercise.

IF rafale carries more load , then employing more number of tejas fighters can do the same job,

tejas mk-2 can at worst suffer a 10 percent shortfall in range compared to RAFALE, so there is not much difference other than marketing jargons.

tejas too can do all the seven roles listed for RAFALE, eventhough mk-1 will have some substantial range and power shortfalls compared to RAFALE. The mk-2 will be so close to RAFALE in range and power to wieght ratio along with a bigger ASEA radar and as per ADA chief's interview will have the interface to carry the same METEOR missile,

Do you know RAFALE still does not have the deadly , HMD aided close combat high off bore missile in the class of R-73 or Python? Tejas mk-1 has it for years,

infact tejas can fire Isralei origin python and derby along with russian origin R-73 and (meteor in mk-2), and indian made astra, the most versatile and deadly air to air missiles . If DRDO designs a brahmos version suitable for naval mig-29(it most certainly will do because brahmos is primarily a naval anti ship missile)Tejas mk-2 will carry it also.

So tejas mk-2 vs RAAFLE will be a very close call. with no major difference either in role or capability or range.

 

[Yusuf]

With the AMCA shelved temporary or otherwise, this proposal might be able to get some funding as its on existing platform.

 

[ersakthivel]

Work on AMCA has already started as per some press reports,It will be a totally new platform requiring much higher thrust engine and a new aerodynamic shaping as well,

But tejas mk-3 is a step up with flight certified two K-9 engines allowing it to supercruise and take advantage of the decade long flight testing regime which validated all the aerodynamic calculation behind tejas mk-1 nad mk-2.So it can be done quickly.

But AMCA will take a longer time.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

RAFALE guys suggest it is an omni role. But tejas too can do all the same once, With in 100 seconds it carried out laser guided bomb attack on a ground target in and launched a couple of air to air missiles in the recently concluded LIVEFIST exercise.

I had no idea of this demonstrated capability.

If DRDO designs a brahmos version suitable for naval mig-29(it most certainly will do because brahmos is primarily a naval anti ship missile)Tejas mk-2 will carry it also.

Excellent point. Quite valid. But this would require some work due to current limitation on Tejas' max. load carrying constraint on its hardpoint.

And, air-launched Brahmos is still under works which would still be around 2.5 tonnes & only suited for MKI.
The 1-ton Brahmos is not arriving on the scene for another 6-7 years.

tejas too can do all the seven roles listed for RAFALE, eventhough mk-1 will have some substantial range and power shortfalls compared to RAFALE. The mk-2 will be so close to RAFALE in range and power to wieght ratio along with a bigger ASEA radar and as per ADA chief's interview will have the interface to carry the same METEOR missile,

Tejas being multi-role is well-known. What we need to find out is whether this mutlti-role capability is balanced by design. or, Tejas is better suited for one particular role & a little less suited for another due to design/real-estate constraints. Therein, lies all the difference.

Also, I am not so so sure about the nuke delivery role that Rafale can peform with ease. Rafale would be the IAF's dedicated & designated platform of choice for this role.

Do you know RAFALE still does not have the deadly , HMD aided close combat high off bore missile in the class of R-73 or Python? Tejas mk-1 has it for years,

HOBS is quite basic. Need to verify this. Would get back soon.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

AMCA and LCA are two different fighters of different catagory ..

--------

Present >

SU-30MKI = Heavy fighter
Rafale = Medium Fighter
Tejas MK1/2 =Light fighter


Future >

FGFA = Heavy fighter
AMCA = Mediuam Fighter
Tjeas MK3 = Light fighter

With the AMCA shelved temporary or otherwise, this proposal might be able to get some funding as its on existing platform.

 

[ersakthivel]

I had no idea of this demonstrated capability.

It has done that and done detachment trials as well, shedding all its external load(ground bombs, external fuel tanks ) at the same instant and getting ready for close air combat

Excellent point. Quite valid. But this would require some work due to current limitation on Tejas' max. load carrying constraint on its hardpoint.
And, air-launched Brahmos is still under works which would still be around 2.5 tonnes & only suited for MKI.
The 1-ton Brahmos is not arriving on the scene for another 6-7 years.

Tejas mk-2 has 5 ton load limit and can be designed to carry future versions of Brahmos if not the tejas mk-1, And mk-2 is going to be the primary naval fighter

Tejas being multi-role is well-known. What we need to find out is whether this mutlti-role capability is balanced by design. or, Tejas is better suited for one particular role & a little less suited for another due to design/real-estate constraints. Therein, lies all the difference.

yes it is well rounded , swing role fighter as per the live chat of the award winning test pilot Suneet krishna,

It has MMR(Asea in mk-2) with nap of the flying facility key to deep penetration strike mission,

Radar warning receiver , Self protection suit(fully internal , a first in indian fighter) ,

three of its seven pylons are versatile they can carry either , smart bombs, air to air missiles in multi rack set up or external fuel tanks,

Other than the outer wing pylon all its pylons can carry either smart bombs, or air to air missiles,

, litening pod and will get tandem and multi ejector rakes , data link ,Will get IRST package in tejas mk-2

Also, I am not so so sure about the nuke delivery role that Rafale can peform with ease. Rafale would be the IAF's dedicated & designated platform of choice for this role.



HOBS is quite basic. Need to verify this. Would get back soon.

RAFALE has Mica and meteor alone, But does not have the deadly high off bore sight close combat WVR missile ,that can be HMDS cued right now, which is vital in close air combat , tejas has had if for years,

tejas mk-2 will have the widest choice of air to air missiles available with the same RAAFLE sized asea radar antenna like R-77, akash, meteor, R-73, derby , python and russian anti ship missile, sudharshan laser guided bombs, russian anti ship missles of KH sries, along with any version of brahmos that will be developed for mig-29 K

 

[TrueSpirit1]

akash, meteor, R-73, derby , python and russian anti ship missile, sudharshan laser guided bombs, russian anti ship missles of KH sries, along with any version of brahmos that will be developed for mig-29 K

Akash ? Or you meant, Astra ? Though both share a common Ramjet propulsion.

Astra development program has not been particularly encouraging if we look at accomplished project milestones. Issues related to control and over-rolling at high AoA were reported. Though the slated range is 20 - 110 kms at varying altitudes, the first version would be limited of 40-60 kms.

Also, the prototypes tested during development trials were on the heavier side & only few MKI's alone have been rigged to carry it. Serial Production is aimed by 2016, as per DRDO. Lets see how this goes. Fingers crossed.

 

[ersakthivel]

Akash ? Or you meant, Astra ? Though both share a common Ramjet propulsion.

Astra development program has not been particularly encouraging if we look at accomplished project milestones. Issues related to control and over-rolling at high AoA were reported. Though the slated range is 20 - 110 kms at varying altitudes, the first version would be limited of 40-60 kms.

Also, the prototypes tested during development trials were on the heavier side & only few MKI's alone have been rigged to carry it. Serial Production is aimed by 2016, as per DRDO. Lets see how this goes. Fingers crossed.

Astra was the right word not akash, you are right,

The heavier prototype was dropped and what is now flying is a fully revamped lighter version of Astra,These lighter prototypes have completed the ground launched tests, with its guidance and motors validated,

and now are in the final stage of testing with captive trials on SU-30 MKI.

But still , RAFALE does not have high off bore HMDS cued hard to shake off close combat WVR missile like Python or R-73.