Indian Tank Ammunition Scenario

[Immanuel]

I think time to have our own new tank rounds filled with CL-20, this could be ideal for HESH rounds, would cause extensive damage and get the enemy running scared. Would CL-20 is standard FSAPS allow them to have faster and better penetration of armor?

Eitherway CL-20 should quickly make its way into standard 155 , 105, 120, 125, 84 mm rounds used widely, this would certainly turn us into the deadliest force on the planet. Brahmos, nirbhay, A2G bombs, shaurya etc can also be packed with CL-20.

 

[Damian]

I think time to have our own new tank rounds filled with CL-20, this could be ideal for HESH rounds, would cause extensive damage and get the enemy running scared.

? As far as I know CL-20 is propellant charge not explosive filler right? And nope, it wound be usefull with HESH, such types of ammunition do not have a need to have more powerfull propelant charges to fly faster.

Would CL-20 is standard FSAPS allow them to have faster and better penetration of armor?

Yes and no. Armor penetration levels depends not only on how fast penetrator is flying towards target (sometimes slower flight is even better than faster one), but also on armor material, armor inclination, hit angle, distance, penetrator material, penetrator material alloy type, penetrator design etc.

If You think that from ammunition on 1980's level You make XXI century ammunition only by using more powerfull propellant charge, then You are very wrong.

Eitherway CL-20 should quickly make its way into standard 155 , 105, 120, 125, 84 mm rounds used widely, this would certainly turn us into the deadliest force on the planet. Brahmos, nirbhay, A2G bombs, shaurya etc can also be packed with CL-20.

So CL-20 is typical explosive material or propellant charge? Or our firend here want to fill APFSDS that is kinetic energy type ammunition not chemical energy type with explosive filler?

 

[p2prada]

DRDO Laboratory Develops Powerful, Light, Compact CL-20 Explosive | India Defence

 

[Damian]

Hmmm, wonder if this can be used as propelant charge. And how it could interfere with gun barrel service life.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Hmmm, wonder if this can be used as propelant charge. And how it could interfere with gun barrel service life.

Even useing normal plastic explosive would blast the gun and the pressure would kill the crew. I once saw a video where they used plastic explosive in a shot gun shell. The gun blasted into pieces,so useing cl-20 would mean the tank may blow up.The pressure would be to high for barrels to take.

 

[Oracle]

Even useing normal plastic explosive would blast the gun and the pressure would kill the crew. I once saw a video where they used plastic explosive in a shot gun shell. The gun blasted into pieces,so useing cl-20 would mean the tank may blow up.The pressure would be to high for barrels to take.

Can you please post the video so that we are informed and can also authenticate your post.

 

[Damian]

Even useing normal plastic explosive would blast the gun and the pressure would kill the crew. I once saw a video where they used plastic explosive in a shot gun shell. The gun blasted into pieces,so useing cl-20 would mean the tank may blow up.The pressure would be to high for barrels to take.

Hmmm, indeed, it is more than possible. Pressure generated by typical explosive filler is probably much higher than a propellant charge filler. Especially one claimed to be such powerfull.

And there is also one more concern, if such explosive can be used as explosive filler for HESH, HESH use highly plastic explosive filler, something else combined with preatty thin shell of HESH round might effect in highly ineffective ammunition.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

? As far as I know CL-20 is propellant charge not explosive filler right? And nope, it wound be usefull with HESH, such types of ammunition do not have a need to have more powerfull propelant charges to fly faster.Yes and no. Armor penetration levels depends not only on how fast penetrator is flying towards target (sometimes slower flight is even better than faster one), but also on armor material, armor inclination, hit angle, distance, penetrator material, penetrator material alloy type, penetrator design etc.If You think that from ammunition on 1980's level You make XXI century ammunition only by using more powerfull propellant charge, then You are very wrong.

"CL-20 offers the only option within the next 10-15 years to meet the requirements of the Indian Armed Forces for Futuristic Weapons," said Dr. Sikder. "CL-20 -based Shaped Charges significantly improve the penetration over armours," he said, adding that it could be used in the bomb for the 120-mm main gun mounted on the MBT-Arjun."

It mainly to be used in Warhead of a new Heat round..

Hmmm, wonder if this can be used as propelant charge. And how it could interfere with gun barrel service life.

That can be done but i doubt ..

 

[Damian]

"CL-20 offers the only option within the next 10-15 years to meet the requirements of the Indian Armed Forces for Futuristic Weapons," said Dr. Sikder. "CL-20 -based Shaped Charges significantly improve the penetration over armours," he said, adding that it could be used in the bomb for the 120-mm main gun mounted on the MBT-Arjun."

It mainly to be used in Warhead of a new Heat round..

Indeed, it is widely known fact that shaped charge warheads armor penetration depends on warhead calliber and how powerfull is explosive filler needed to create shaped charge jet.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Hmmm, indeed, it is more than possible. Pressure generated by typical explosive filler is probably much higher than a propellant charge filler. Especially one claimed to be such powerfull.

And there is also one more concern, if such explosive can be used as explosive filler for HESH, HESH use highly plastic explosive filler, something else combined with preatty thin shell of HESH round might effect in highly ineffective ammunition.

I am posting from a phone, so i cant post details or links right now.Actually couple of months back i was searching for the same issue of adding plastic explosives or cl-20 as charge but could not find anything that agreed to it. I saw a video where they used a tinny amount of plastic explosive in a shell and that ripped the barrel in two.I havent followed on the issue since.If you find anything contrary post away. However if they could use it as a filler like depleated uranium with silver nitrate i think it would still be very strong, moreover the Cl-20 made by US is toxic and cant be handled by humans.The drdo version has over come the toxity problem and unlike other versions can be handled by humans. Either way as you know well that handeling current psi levels itself is a huge task and with current metallurgy does not allow for more preassure without compramise to life of barrel.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Can you please post the video so that we are informed and can also authenticate your post.

Video of what? Your authenticating for whom?

 

[Godless-Kafir]

"CL-20 offers the only option within the next 10-15 years to meet the requirements of the Indian Armed Forces for Futuristic Weapons," said Dr. Sikder. "CL-20 -based Shaped Charges significantly improve the penetration over armours," he said, adding that it could be used in the bomb for the 120-mm main gun mounted on the MBT-Arjun."

It mainly to be used in Warhead of a new Heat round..




That can be done but i doubt ..

KB do you know if US is useing this as charge? I really doubt it, can you imagine a shell filled with just plastic explosive? It would rip the turret right off. Dont think drdo person has tested it and perhaps thats y he has hopes for it. The already high psi limits useing convential explosive pushes the barrel pressure to max. I am not sure, if you find anything like depleted uranium let me know. Would be very intresting.

 

[Damian]

IMHO CL-20 might be perfect HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank) shaped charge warhead filler, but propellant charge definetly will be different... not to mention that besides APFSDS all other types of ammunition do not need powerfull propelant charges.

The gun service life is messured in EFC (Effective Full Charge), so more or less standard is that 1 EFC is like firing HEAT, HE/HEF or HESH round, but firing single APFSDS is like firing 4 EFC or HEAT, HE/HEF, HESH. Of course it is the simplest way to explain this phenomen.

AFAIK for example the M829A3 use a very powerfull propellant charge (nothing strange, it needs to propell most heavy APFSDS used these days, around 10kg's heavy... this is penetrator itself, without sabot), and if the gun is not new one, before firing (of course if this is not emergency situation (means real fight), crew is also obligated to check gun serial numbers (it's production date), get infos on how much life left for this gun and if needed consulte this with manufacturer specialists if needed... but if there is battle then nobody will bother about that, and they will just fire it. Yet such situation is very rare and during trainign where battle ammunition firing drills are needed, safety concerns are very serious problem to solve.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

KB do you know if US is useing this as charge? I really doubt it, can you imagine a shell filled with just plastic explosive? It would rip the turret right off. Dont think drdo person has tested it and perhaps thats y he has hopes for it. The already high psi limits useing convential explosive pushes the barrel pressure to max. I am not sure, if you find anything like depleted uranium let me know. Would be very intresting.

They use HMX grade Explosive in Heat shells..

No, Not enough to rip of the frontal turret of a modern tank turret equipped with composite Armour sandwich, Heat round makes jet stream to penetrate Armour will leave a hole..

Arjun Barrel can endure 650psi to 800psi to be correct, CL-20 wont be used for propellant charges but in warhead of a HEAT shell..


Depleted uranium is used in AP rounds only..

 

[pmaitra]

Even useing normal plastic explosive would blast the gun and the pressure would kill the crew. I once saw a video where they used plastic explosive in a shot gun shell. The gun blasted into pieces,so useing cl-20 would mean the tank may blow up.The pressure would be to high for barrels to take.

Can you please post the video so that we are informed and can also authenticate your post.

Can you please post the video so that we are informed and can also authenticate your post.

Video of what? Your authenticating for whom?

GK,

Whenever you get a chance, please post links and/or references, if possible. It will only help bolster your point of view.

Thanks!

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Here is a table which provides information on chemistry of propellants versus high explosives.

 

[laltaputu]

T-55

300 T-54s from Soviet Union 1965-67,225 T-55 from Soviet Union 1968-71, 650 T-55 from Soviet Union 1971-74, 274 T-54s, 44

T-55s and 7 T-55AK from Czechoslovakia 1970-71,300 T-55 from poland 1971,
800 T-55 in 1990,750 in 1995,700 in 2001-03,450 2005-08,220 in 2012-15(all in storage since may 2011)

Specification on T-55(upgraded)

Weight: 36 tonnes

Length: 6.45 m

Width: 3.37 m

Height: 2.40 m

Crew: 4

Armour: 203 mm turret, 99 mm hull, LOS = ~200 mm

Engine: V-2-55/V-12 water-cooled diesel engine with 600 bhp.

Power-to-Weight Ratio: 14.4 hp/ton.

Maximum Speed: 50 km/h.

Maximum Range: Without fuel tanks: 510 km , with fuel tanks: 600 km.

Fording: 1.4 metres.

Trench Crossing: 2.7 metres.

Vertical Obstacle: 0.8 metres.

Ground Clearance: 0.425 metres.

Armament: 1 x 105mm L7A1 rifled gun with 43 rounds. (Main Gun)
1 x 7.62mm PKT Machine Gun with 2000 rounds. (Co-Axial)
1 x 12.7mm NSV-M Machine Gun with 2800 rounds (Anti-Air)


Upgrades received under Project Gulmohar till 1999 is modernized with night-fighting equipment and new fire control systems
and overhaul by The 512 Army Base Workshop.


Ammunitions used:
BR-412D,3UBM6,3BM8 HVAPDS,3UBK4,3BK5M,3UBK9,3BK17M,3UBM11,3BM25(APFSDS).

T-72


Total in Indian service :2418, Present:1,900

In 1993 all T-72M is upgraded to T-72M1 with thicker Armour similar to T-72A and 12 smoke grenade on turret front.

T-72M1 Ajeya (Numbers:620)

Upgrades include

Polish SKO-1T DRAWA-T fire control systems

Thermal imagers supplied by the Israel's El-Op

DRDO ERA

BEL laser illumination warning system

BEL manufactured new state-of-the-art frequency hopping combat net Radios

BEL's advanced fiber optic gyro-based land navigation system.

Improved NBC protection system by DRDO.

Fire detection and suppression system

Uprated 1,000 hp (750 kW)

Specifications of T-72M1 Ajeya

Weight: 43.5 tonnes

Length: 6.95 m

Width: 3.59 m

Height: 2.23 m

Crew: 3

Armour: ERA and composite armour


Engine: V-12 diesel Uprated 1,000 hp (750 kW)

Power-to-Weight Ratio: 21.4 hp/ton.

Fuel capacity: 1,200 L

Maximum Range: Without fuel tanks: 460 km , with fuel tanks: 700 km.

Speed 60 km/h


Armament: 1 x 125mm 2A46 smoothbore gun with 44 rounds. (Main Gun)
1 x 7.62mm PKT Machine Gun with 2000 rounds. (Co-Axial)
1 x 12.7mm NSV-t Machine Gun with 2800 rounds (Anti-Air)



Specifications of 2A46 smoothbore gun of T-72 Ajeya

Caliber: 125/48 mm

Barrel length : 6000mm

Chamber length : 383 mm

Gun length : 6678mm

Barrel life: 1200 rounds

Max.chamber pressure: 5100 bar

Ammunitions for 2A26M2 smoothbore gun:

3BM-44

Specifications

Muzzle velocity:1700m/s
Length of projectile:574mm
Weights projectile with sabot:4.85 kg


CL 3254( 125 mm APFSDS-T M711 round)

Specifications

Weights projectile with sabot : 6.7 kg
Weights propellant charge : 8.9 kg
stub case : 3.4 kg
Length of projectile: 678 mm
Muzzle velocity: 1,700 m/s
Chamber pressure: (nominal) 570 MPa
Operational temperature limits: -35 to +52 C
Storage temperature limits: -40 to +70 C

AMK 340 (125 mm mark-I) OFB

Specifications

Weights: projectile with sabot and propellant charge : 19 kg
Muzzle velocity:1500m/s
Chamber Pressure :413-427 MPa


AMK 340 (125 mm mark-II) OFB

Specifications

Weights: projectile with sabot and propellant charge : 19.3 kg
Muzzle velocity:1600m/s
Chamber Pressure :520 MPa

CL125HEAT OFB

Specifications

Weight of complete round : 29.0 kgs
Chamber Pressure :353 MPa

CL125HE

Specifications

Weight of complete round : 23.0 kgs
Chamber Pressure : 412 MPa



T-90s

Acquired in batches

Batch 1:

310 T-90S in 2001,120 were delivered complete, 90 in semi-knocked down kits, and 100 in completely knocked down kits.
These T-90s features welded turret, the V-92S2 engine, French Thales built Catherine-FC thermal sights and Kontakt-5 ERA

and an APU.

Batch 2:

October 26, 2006, 330 T-90s "Bhishma" to be manufactured in India.These T-90s features welded turret, the V-92S2 engine,

French Thales built Catherine-FC thermal sights, 'Kaktus K-6' bolted explosive reactive armour ERA, Kanchan armour

panels,125mm 2A46M-5 smoothbore gun for new long road penetrator,an APU and enhanced environmental control system for

cryogenic cooling systems supplied by Israel's Kinetics Ltd.

Batch 3:

December 2007, 347 T-90s "Bhisma" in knock down kits to be assembled in india of the above specifications.


T-90 evolution

Specifications of T-90s "Bhisma"

Weight: 47.5 tonnes
Length: 9.63 m
Width: 3.78 m
Height: 2.22 m
Crew: 3

Armor: Steel-composite-reactive blend with Kaktus K-6 ERA

Engine: V-92S2 12-cyl Chelyabinsk diesel diesel enginel 1,000 hp (750 kW)

Power-to-Weight Ratio:20.6 hp/tonne (15.8 kW/tonne)

Suspension: torsion bar
Range: 650 km
Speed: 65 km/h road 35 km/hr cross country

Armament: 1 x 125mm 2A46M-5 smoothbore gun with 44 rounds. (Main Gun)
1 x 7.62mm PKT Machine Gun with 2000 rounds. (Co-Axial)
1 x 12.7mm NSV-t Machine Gun with 2800 rounds (Anti-Air)

125mm 2A46M-5 smoothbore gun

Specification:

Caliber: 125/52 mm

Barrel length : 6100mm

Chamber length : 383 mm

Gun length : 6678mm

Barrel life: 1600 rounds

Optimal chamber pressure: 6500 bar

Ammunition for 125mm 2A46M-5 smoothbore gun

3BM-44M

Recently ordered 10,000 rounds from Russia,another 15,000 to be build by OFB.

Specifications

Muzzle velocity:1750m/s
Length of projectile:730mm
Weights projectile with sabot:6.95 kg

HEAT-FS 3BK29M

Specifications

Projectile weight: 18.4 kg
Charge weight: 1.62 kg
Muzzle velocity: 915 m/s


HEAT-FS 3BK-31

Specification:
Triple-tandem charge
penetration 800mm of RHA

HE-FRAG-FS 3OF26


9M119 Refleks-M (NATO: AT-11 Sniper-B)


Missile weight is 23.4 kg
Range: 75 to 5000 metres
Tandem warhead
Guidance: Semi-Active Laser
1000mm penetration of RHA


Arjun MkI and Arjun MkII

Batch 1: 124 Arjun MkI in 2000
Batch 2: 124 Arjun MkII in 2010

USP Of Arjun:

Advanced Laser Warning Countermeasure System (ALWCS) for the fire control system laser warning system, Infra-Red (IR)

jammer and aerosol smoke grenade system.

Mobile Camouflage System

Hydro-pneumatic suspension

Engine and transmission are provided by German companies MTU and Renk


Upgrades in Arjun MkII

1. Missile firing capability
2. Commander's TI panoramic sight Mk II
3. Driver's uncooled thermal imaging night sight
4. Additional ammunition (CL120FSApds Mark-II )
5. Enhanced ammunition penetrator(780mm)
6. Effective alternative to muzzle reference sight (MRS)
7. Resin-based CCC
8. Ten-round containerised bin
9. Explosive reactive armour panels
10. Infra-red/Thermal imaging resistant paint
11. Air defence weapon remote firing
12. ALWCS (advanced laser warning and countermeasure system)
13. Roof mounted driver's seat
14. ATT in GMS (gunner's main sight)
15. Advanced land navigation system
16. New final drive with increased reduction ratio
17. Advanced running gear system
18. New track system
19. Mine plough
20.8 KW APU

Specifications of Arjun MkI

Weight: 58.5 tonnes

Length: 10.638 m

Width: 3.864 m

Height: 2.32 m

Crew: 4

Armour: ERA and Kanchan composite Rolled Homogenious armour(RHA)


Engine MTU 838 Ka 501 diesel ,1,400 hp (1,040 kW)

Power-to-Weight Ratio: 23.9hp/tonne.

Fuel capacity: 1,610 l

Maximum Range: 450 km

Speed: 70 km/h road 40 km/hr cross country


Armament: 1 x 120 mm rifled L/51 gun with 39 rounds. (Main Gun)
1 x 7.62mm Tk715 Machine Gun with 2000 rounds. (Co-Axial)
1 x 12.7mm HCB Machine Gun with 2800 rounds (Anti-Air)




Specification of ARDE's 120 mm rifled L/51 gun

Caliber: 120/51 mm

Barrel length : 6050mm

Max.chamber pressure: 8400 bar

optimal chamber pressure: 6200 bar

APFSDS firing chamber pressure :5100 bar



Ammunitions for ARDE's 120 mm rifled L/51 gun

CL120FSApds

Specifications

Muzzle velocity:1650m/s
Length of round:944mm
Length of projectile:730mm
Weight of complete round : 20.2 Kgs
Weights projectile with sabot:6.8 kg


CL120FSApds Mark-II (under development)

Specifications

Muzzle velocity:1700m/s
Length of round:994mm
Length of projectile:780mm
Weight of complete round :21.4 Kgs
Weights projectile with sabot:8.0 kg



cl120hesh

Specifications

Muzzle velocity:730m/s
Length of round:998mm
Weight of projectile:14.4 kg
Weight of complete round :22.2 Kgs


LAHAT missile

Specifications:

Weight: 13.0 kg
Length: 97.5 cm
Diameter: 120 mm
Warhead: Tandem HEAT
Warhead weight: 4.5 kg
Operational range: 8000 m
Speed 285-300 m/s
Guidance: Semi-Active Laser Homing

 

[Storm shadow]

Buddy,where did you get information about the CL120FSAPDS MkI (especially the length and weight of the projectile) and CL120FSAPDS MkII round????

And by the way,as per official ARDE website,CL120FSAPDS is fired at 6200 Bars chamber pressure,not 5100 Bars.

THANX....

 

[Damian]

Armament: 1 x 105mm L7A1 rifled gun with 43 rounds. (Main Gun)
1 x 7.62mm PKT Machine Gun with 2000 rounds. (Co-Axial)
1 x 12.7mm NSV-M Machine Gun with 2800 rounds (Anti-Air)

Ammunitions used:
BR-412D,3UBM6,3BM8 HVAPDS,3UBK4,3BK5M,3UBK9,3BK17M,3UBM11,3BM25(APFSD S).

This is completely wrong for T-54/55 series. You first provides information that these tanks were rearmed with British L7 105mm rifled gun, and later You says that these tanks are using Soviet/Russian ammunition for 100mm D-10 rifled gun series.

Buddy,where did you get information about the CL120FSAPDS MkI (especially the length and weight of the projectile) and CL120FSAPDS MkII round????

And by the way,as per official ARDE website,CL120FSAPDS is fired at 6200 Bars chamber pressure,not 5100 Bars.

Lenght of projectiles is complete and utter BS.

Specifications

Muzzle velocity:1650m/s
Length of round:944mm
Length of projectile:730mm
Weight of complete round : 20.2 Kgs
Weights projectile with sabot:6.8 kg

If this have a lenght of 730mm then I'am Santa... Ho Ho Ho.

CL120FSApds Mark-II (under development)

Specifications

Muzzle velocity:1700m/s
Length of round:994mm
Length of projectile:780mm
Weight of complete round :21.4 Kgs
Weights projectile with sabot:8.0 kg

Yeah, right nobody seen the round, but somehow it have almost the same lenght as the earlier version, that in reality is much shorter... who the hell spread such BS?

 

[methos]

Buddy,where did you get information about the CL120FSAPDS MkI (especially the length and weight of the projectile) and CL120FSAPDS MkII round????

And by the way,as per official ARDE website,CL120FSAPDS is fired at 6200 Bars chamber pressure,not 5100 Bars.

THANX....

5,100 bar is more realistic, unless your researchers decided to use some very inefficient propellant. That's about the same as the early 120 mm NATO APFSDS (which have similar accelerated projectile mass and muzzle velocity when being compared to CL120) used and more than the current 125 mm APFSDS used by India achieve.