Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questions

[TrueSpirit]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Ar is cover.

Pakar is grasp or words to that effect.

It means use cover.

One type of cover is from vision like foliage called nazari ar.

The other is solid or mazbut ar, which gives protect from small arms fire.

Thanks. Had no idea about this.

Which language ? IA's proprietary language ?

 

[Ray]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Thanks. Had no idea about this.

Which language ? IA's proprietary language ?

When I joined the Army, the language was Hindustani - a mixture of Hindi and Urdu.

When I left, it was pure Sanskritised Hindi, which most of us did not quite understand.

In fact, during the Durbar or Sainik Sammelan, the AEC Havildar (Education Corps) had to read the Minutes of the Last Durbar. They did it with the best of Sanskritised Hindi and it was good in one way - very few understood and so there was no discussions on that!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio


This is the vid where one can see how the engagement goes..

 

[Decklander]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Sorry for using the Hindustani phrase. There are many terms that are totally indelible in the memory and that is what comes first to mind.

Ar is cover.

Pakar is grasp or words to that effect.

It means use cover.

One type of cover is from vision like foliage called nazari ar.

The other is solid or mazbut ar, which gives protect from small arms fire.

The hindi as written in english will be- aadh pakad or oat main hoja.4

*******
It is still used for DO Part I, Hindi in Roman Script and is called Roman Hindi! LOL!

 

[TrueSpirit]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

When I joined the Army, the language was Hindustani - a mixture of Hindi and Urdu.

When I left, it was pure Sanskritised Hindi, which most of us did not quite understand.

Was this a pre-meditated cultural change ? What purpose it served ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Harder to understand by enemy, It takes time to think ..

Was this a pre-meditated cultural change ? What purpose it served ?

 

[Ray]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Officers face patrol quiz

SUJAN DUTTA
New Delhi, Aug. 8: At least three officers in the chain of command of the soldiers who were killed in the attack by Pakistan Army special forces and militants on Monday night are set to be quizzed on whether they enforced and monitored the norms set for patrolling the Line of Control.

Army chief General Bikram Singh met these officers during his visit to Jammu yesterday. A court of inquiry was already ordered on Tuesday. The army chief is understood to have "given a piece of his mind" at a meeting in the 16 corps headquarters in Nagrota.

The Telegraph had reported on Thursday that there were suspicions of a "command failure" because of which the attackers could come into territory monitored by the army and kill the soldiers.

This morning, the army chief briefed the defence minister and senior officials before A.K. Antony read out his statement in Parliament that mollified the Opposition.

The defence minister, who told Parliament that "specialised troops" of the Pakistan Army were among the attackers, was explained that these commandos were from the Special Services Group (SSG). Former Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf (now in jail) was an SSG company commander in the 1971 war with India.

The defence minister had a separate meeting with the army chief after the briefing and before going to Parliament fully convinced. The army chief is understood to have reported his findings and assessment from his meetings in the Northern Command and with the officers during his visit to Jammu.

Monday night's attack was timed to coincide with the handing over of the Poonch sector by the 21 Bihar battalion to the 14 Maratha Light Infantry. The two Maratha soldiers in the six-man patrol — only one of whom survived the murderous assault — were being familiarised along a track in an area that is heavily mined.

For the attackers to have found their way in and out through one of the most heavily militarised borders of the world — militarised for more than 40 years — and into enemy territory required skills of the kind that the Pakistan Army's SSG was raised for, the defence minister was told in his briefing.

A large part of what the army chief learnt during his visit was from the account narrated by the only surviving soldier, Sepoy Sambhaji Kute, from the patrol. He is said to have learnt that the patrol engaged the attackers in a firefight despite being outnumbered.

Kute, who was injured but is not in danger, was also reported to have fired back and prevented the attackers from escaping with the weapons of his comrades, one army source said.

Officers face patrol quiz

 

[Bhadra]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Monday night's attack was timed to coincide with the handing over of the Poonch sector by the 21 Bihar battalion to the 14 Maratha Light Infantry. The two Maratha soldiers in the six-man patrol — only one of whom survived the murderous assault — were being familiarised along a track in an area that is heavily mined.

Now that is the real scenario !!
A battalion handing over to the other ! and these incidents are quite well known to happen.
And this happened in the area of "Sarala" as reported which is dominated by the Pakistanis from all sides and is flanked by a very wide nullaha on one side and dense forest on the other.

The most likely place where it could have happened.

 

[parijataka]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Thanks. Had no idea about this.

Which language ? IA's proprietary language ?

I think what @Ray sir meant was 'आड़ पकड़' - problem of writing Indian languages in English

 

[Ray]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

I think what @Ray sir meant was 'आड़ पकड़' - problem of writing Indian languages in English

Correct.

That is it!

 

[Blood+]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Weren't they equipped with BPJs and PNVDs?!Aftar all,it was a night patrol and BPJs and BPPs are quite common these days as seen on news channels!!I wonder what went wrong other than the patrol being heavily out numbered?

By the way,Ray sir and Kunal Sir,aren't there any drills and procedures to identify or avoid possible ambush situations?

And Ray sir,what was the situation in your days?I mean back then the insurgency problem was severe by manyfolds as compared to today's!Were proper protective gears and PNVDs available to your so 'belly crawlers'??And how does the Patka fare compared to other contemporary combat helmets?

Thank you.

 

[JBH22]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Most of the opposition parties attacked the Defence Minister AK Anthony for saying, the Indian soldiers were killed by terrorists in Pak army`s uniform.

 

[JBH22]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

 

[parijataka]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

No other nation has a dummy PM/President like our Manmohan Singh ji, what a disappointment this guy has been.He is fit to be a bureaucrat, he is no leader. And all the highly educated, albeit crooked, cabinet ministers obey the commands of a lady who is not even college educated and is in the seat of power due to being the widow of the last Congress PM. Largest democracy in the world indeed.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Hope he get back in action soon, In ambush its important to fire back hard and heavy to disperse enemy, His training came useful ..

Kute, who was injured but is not in danger, was also reported to have fired back and prevented the attackers from escaping with the weapons of his comrades, one army source said.

 

[Blackwater]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

No other nation has a dummy PM/President like our Manmohan Singh ji, what a disappointment this guy has been.He is fit to be a bureaucrat, he is no leader. And all the highly educated, albeit crooked, cabinet ministers obey the commands of a lady who is not even college educated and is in the seat of power due to being the widow of the last Congress PM. Largest democracy in the world indeed.

on blue ,100 take ki baat, mannu is not leader/politician, he is just highly educated sarkari babu


on green, that irony of India,so why u think sonia choose mannu for 8 yrs???

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

@Ray Sir, Is it ok to slow down patrols ? What if enemy makes caves and other infrastructure in patrol absence, Should we increase firepower to make sure patrols fight effectively or slow down our patrols ?

At least three officers in the chain of command of the soldiers who were killed in the attack by Pakistan Army special forces and militants on Monday night are set to be quizzed on whether they enforced and monitored the norms set for patrolling the Line of Control.

 

[Ray]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Weren't they equipped with BPJs and PNVDs?!Aftar all,it was a night patrol and BPJs and BPPs are quite common these days as seen on news channels!!I wonder what went wrong other than the patrol being heavily out numbered?

By the way,Ray sir and Kunal Sir,aren't there any drills and procedures to identify or avoid possible ambush situations?

And Ray sir,what was the situation in your days?I mean back then the insurgency problem was severe by manyfolds as compared to today's!Were proper protective gears and PNVDs available to your so 'belly crawlers'??And how does the Patka fare compared to other contemporary combat helmets?

Thank you.

A patrol, it is to move from bound to bound. Classically, a Bound is a piece of ground that is secured tactically. It is usually areas where enemy can be expected. It is also a place used for coordinating the movement of the patrol by the HQ that is controlling the patrol.

Patrolling is not an amble. It is a very tiring and exhaustive work. If the drills are adhered to, the cause for grief is less, though no one can guarantee 100% success. The Listening Drill where every now and then all stop, take position, listen and observe and then when it appears OK, move on till it is necessary to execute the next Listening Drill. And intelligent use of the ground, as is taught, is most essential for the safety of the patrol.

One cannot say what went wrong with the patrol that was ambushed, but prolonged stay makes people including commanders slack and they take it as routine and people short circuit the procedures and drills.

Further, when one is handing over to another unit, some get the attitude of 'lets get done with it since we will no longer be there'. This period is usually the most vulnerable period when there is the Relief of Troops in Contact. The enemy is aware of the same because the troops habits change and sometimes the physical attributes and they seek such time to execute a 'kill'.

I have had many tenures in J&K, each with the changing times - no insurgency, nascent insurgency, raging insurgency and so on. In the later part BPJs came into play, but NV devices were rare.

To be frank, Patkas are so heavy that it can give one spondylitis. But then, there is no alternative, if safety is the prime concern.

 

[arya]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

our fewfighter planes can do there job but at right time .

we should be ready from pakistan and give them a hard welcome reply .

 

[Ray]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

@Ray Sir, Is it ok to slow down patrols ? What if enemy makes caves and other infrastructure in patrol absence, Should we increase firepower to make sure patrols fight effectively or slow down our patrols ?

It has to be patrolling as usual, but routes and areas changed frequently.

Routinely vulnerable areas should be manned by Protective Patrols of adequate strength.

After 1971, we had Op RACHNA posts, which were not essential during war or of tactical significance, but then they dominated the LC and plugged the gaps.