Taliban, LeT maligning Islam: Indian Saudi Islamic Scholars

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by ejazr, Mar 1, 2012.

  1. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Taliban, LeT maligning Islam: Scholars - India - DNA

    Islamic scholars of Ahle Hadees faith here on Wednesday accused their Pakistani counterpart representing the Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) and its parent body Markaz Dawa-al-Irshad of being part of a global conspiracy to malign Islam.

    The Markazi Jamiat Ahle-e-Hadees, which is hosting the Imam of Holy shrine of Islam in Makkah, Dr Saud Bin Ibrahim Al Shoraim, here on March 2-3, said their faith even does not recognise street protests, and strongly denounces hijacking, bombing, or suicide missions.

    The main feature of two conferences of Markazi Jamiat Ahle-e-Hadees would be the presence of Imam-e-Kaaba Dr Alsharami. The Saudi Islamic scholar is also travelling to world famous Islamic seminary Deoband on Saturday.

    The organisers are expecting Shankaracharia Swami Adokshanand and some Buddhist leaders also to join the Imam of Kaaba at the Ramlila grounds on Friday.

    Often labeled as ‘Wahabis’ and accused of promoting radical brand of Islam, secretary general of the host organisation Maulana Asghar Ali Imam Mahdi Salfi said suicide bombing and terrorism has done a great harm to Islam. “Even logically if a Palestinian bomber kills four or five Israeli Jews, the cost of retaliation is too heavy. Israelis in retaliation kills many more or arrest hundreds of Palestinians. There is no incentive. Even against oppression, there is need to continue peaceful struggle and create international awareness,” said the Maulana.

    “We believe Hafiz Mohamamd Sayeed, the chief of LeT, is a Khawarij (seceder or the rebel) and needs to be punished under the book,” he said. The Ahle Hadees sect often comes under attack in India for sharing ideology with the LeT or Dawa al Irshad headed by Hafiz Mohammad Sayeed.

    Clarifying his stance, Maulana Salfi said both Hafiz Sayeed and Taliban were part of an international conspiracy. He called these groups marauders and said their struggle was nowhere near ‘jihad’. He pointed out how America promoted these very groups when they were aligning with it to fight against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.

    Claiming that a majority of Ahle Hadees followers in Pakistan were also up in arms against Hafiz Sayeed for taking over their mosques and establishments, Maulana said Islam does not believe taking extreme lines.
     
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  3. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Apart from the Ahle-Hadees sponsored convention in Delhi, we also currently have the UK based, Pakistani origin Tahir ul Qadri conducting a number of events in India which also include anti-Terrorism and communal harmony messages.

    Terrorism has no place in Islam: Sufi scholar - Indian Express

    Sufi scholar Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri Wednesday said that peace is the source and crux of Islam, and that terrorism has no place in the religion.

    Qadri, the Pakistan-based founder of Minhaj-ul-Quran, was delivering a lecture at the India Islamic Centre to mark the launch of his book, ‘Fatwa on terrorism and suicide bombings’.

    The book is the English translation of a 600-page fatwa, in Urdu, issued in March 2010. A statement released at the venue described it as, “one of the most extensive Islamic anti-terrorism rulings, an absolute condemnation of terrorism without any excuses or pretexts....”

    The Minaj-ul-Quran International is a Lahore-headquartered NGO founded in 1981. According to the organisation’s website, its aims include, “reviving the true values and principles of Islam”.

    In his hour-long speech, Qadri sought to separate the usage of the word ‘Islam’ with violence: “...terms like Islamic Terrorism, Islamic Radicalism, Islamic Terrorists have come to be used in common parlance these days... why don’t we talk about Islamic Literature or Islamic Economic Theory? On the other hand, when Islam is used with a word like terrorism, it is implied that the act of terror is Islamic.”
     
  4. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    They have condemned only the terrorism aspects of fundamentalism. When will they come out of their medievel mentality of women slavery in the name of protecting them? Even that gives islam a bad name around the world. But atleast this can be considered as the first step!!
     
  5. Tolaha

    Tolaha Senior Member Senior Member

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    Maybe they could declare that the call for jihad on Kashmir by Pakistanis is "un-Islamic" as well. And when they are at it, maybe give more support to India's cause in OIC!
     
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  6. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

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    And who has been funding these uncharitable organisations?

    From where do Wahabis and their ilk in India and Pakistan get much of their funds?

    Why no attempts to call out the likes of Hafiz Saeed for a public debate and denounce them as Khawarij on their face?

    But what really takes the cake is this

    Done great harm to Islam? What about the unparalleled misery this has inflicted on the victims and their families and the nations that have been devastated by these vile acts in the name of religion? I would have thought that the wise maulana, if truly anguished would have spoken about the human cost of this more than the "harm it has done to Islam".

    The cost of retaliation is too heavy? There is no incentive? You mean if Israel reacted like India, where terrorists could get away with planting bombs and bombers, killing innocent folks without any fears of retaliation, then it is fine to consider this strategy?

    A very shallow argument indeed.
     
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  7. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    There are fundamentalists and literalists everywhere and that applies to Salafis too. Is there anything specifc that you deem as "women slavery"? The women's right issue like driving or guardian laws are more a social issue than a faith issue. Still they will need to reform or perish as a school of though. In other areas like female literacy, higher education they are now ahead of even India and considering that it was only in the 70s when their female literacy was under 5%, it is a big leap. Even in female work particpation rates for Saudi Arabia 2010 is improving and is around 26%. This the same participation rate where India was in 2001 census.

    And its the first time being done in such a way in India. Otherwise, Indian Ahle-Hadith followers have always condemened terrorism and pseudo-Jihad in Kashmir. The Salafis in Saudi Arabia have historically condemened suicide bombings as Haram and as the bolded portions show they have opposed things like airline hijackings and even protests against governments. So since this menace of suicide bombings had started in the 1980s by Hezbullah against Israel. A very renowned Salafi scholar Sheikh bin Baaz in the 1980s when asked about the legality of suciide bombings against Israelis then categroically declared it haram even if it was to fight against the Israelis.
     
  8. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Already has been done for a while now. Ofcourse, the media does not highlight it and nor are these statements made for "show" to the Indian public or govt. Its for Muslims who should not be misguided by people who are misusing the concept of Jihad and Islam to achieve their own political ends.

    And not just by Salafis, but by Muslim scholars from various schools of thoughts and even some Pakistani politicians.

    Sardar Qayyum former PM of AJK stated the so called Jihad is just terrorism Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

    Maududi, the founder of JI in Pakistan and whose party after his death became the principal propagandist and beneficiary of the "Kashmir Jihad" opposed it on Islamic grounds that there is no Jihad in Kashmir. His son reiterates the same view and explains that JI leaders have just become greedy and influenced by the ISI rather than sticking to traditional Islamic ethos.
    There Can be No Jihad in Kashmir
    An Interview with Haider Farooq Mawdudi, Noted Pakistani Islamic Scholar

    I also know for a fact that a Pakistani Ahl-e-Hadith Scholar Tauseef ur Rahman Rashidi has also categorically given a fatwa( not a diktat but legal opinion according to his school of thought) that there is no Jihad in Kashmir. He also have extensive and close ties with Saudi salafi scholars. So here is a salafi scholar living in Pakistan and saying there is no Jihad in Kashmir.

    Not to mention that Indian Islamic scholars of ALL school of thoughts across the board have categorically stated that not only there is no Jihad in Kashmir, but that it is there Islamic duty as part of their loyalty oath to help in defending it if required to do so. This has been reiterated consistenly but a very significant one was one of the 30+ anti-terrorism conferences held in 2008 where 1000s of clerics across various schools of thought voiced this opinion.
    Even the militant pro-Taliban leaders have now seen the ruse that ISI has used and have declared that even in THEIR opinion there is no Jihad in Kashmir
    Jihad not mandatory in Kashmir: Pro-Taliban cleric - Rediff.com India News


    If you read or hear the recent speeches or articles from the "pro-Jihad" establishment militant groups, you can always see one of their major complaints is that many ulema (Islamic scholars) do not support them and they are always pleading to come and support them. The idea that there is Jihad in the Pakistani side of Kashmir which had the biggest incentive for this, students groups are up in arms against the LeT. So you can see the impact of all these.
    Ofcourse the ISI has an overbearing prescnece and the Jammu and Kashmir National Students Federation that had spearheaded the anti-LeT movement in the last 2-3 years has been quietly shut down.
    But this will continue to build. This UNHCR report on POK is a good read on this
    UNHCR | Refworld | "With Friends Like These...": Human Rights Violations in Azad Kashmir
     
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  9. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Salafis and Ahle-Hadith groups which is the correct terms atleast in India depend on donations from Indians. Muslim organisations are always under scrutinty and any any foreign donations have to reported to the govt. That is why some institutions like Deoband completely ban donations outside India. While others have to maintain accounts for foreign donations. Besides, you don't need a lot of money to book Ramleela maidan for a day.

    Read my post above on what steps have been taken already. And why is not declaring that Hafiz Saeed is wrong with theological arguments on the same platform as the Saudi Imam of Grand mosque in Mecca is not enough to address to the vast majority of their followers the idea that he is wrong. You want them to go find out where he is hiding and say it on his face? If you have read the article, you would also note that Salafi followers in Pakistan themselves are up in arms against him according to him. This shows the direct impact of the scholars of this school of thought and Saeed's diminishing position.

    Claiming that a majority of Ahle Hadees followers in Pakistan were also up in arms against Hafiz Sayeed for taking over their mosques and establishments, Maulana said Islam does not believe taking extreme lines.

    And finally, you are just picking one comment that is being made on top of the religiously santioned argument of not using sucide bombings and not attacking civilians that scholars are unanimous across the board.
    The reason why suicide bombings and attacking civilians is not allowed under the Salafi school of thought( or any Islamic school of thought) is because it is UnIslamic to commit suicide for the first one. The majority of the suicide bombings being done in the 80s where against Israeli military targets and even that was condemened as being unIslamic by Salafi scholars. And even then they were being conducted by Hezbullah which is a shia group.
    Attacking civilians again is also haram because of the religious sanction to not attack non-combatants, women, children, elderly and people of faith. This is mentioned in the Quran. This is something that is established and well understood. Therefore the MAIN INCENTIVE is according to the Salafi school of thought is that God does not allow the killing of innoncent civilians or to commit suicide bombing attacks.
    The point he was making was for people who go beyond these established principles and say that those who think that these Islamic principles should be done away with and give a political reason like military tactic or establising a nation state to do such acts are also wrong because even then they are not doing any benefit. Suicide bombers: expedient tactics, not expression of Islam | Homeland Security News Wire

    The same scholar had issued a fatwa alone ithe 30+ other scholars from the Salafi school of thought back in 2010 as well that LeT and their affiliates are khwarij and deviant. And that wanton killings that results in the death of civilians is liable for the death penalty under Islamic law.

    Moving our focus to Saudi scholars, again have publicly said that suicide bombings that kills people indisciminately is wrong and that includes muslim as well as non-muslim civilians.
    صحيفة عكاظ - الفوزان: المنتحرون باسم الجهاد أتباع للشيطان
    Just briefly this article linked above in Arabic quotes Dr. Ṣāliḥ Ibn Fawzān al-Fawzān, a member of Saudi Arabia’s council of senior scholars and the Permanent Committee of scholars, describes those who claim they are performing “Jihad” for the sake of Allah by committing suicide are actually fighting for the sake of Satan.That they (suicide bombers) murder people , blow up buildings indiscriminately killing both the young and old, male and female, Muslims and those non-Muslims guaranteed safety and living peacefully under Muslim laws (in Muslim nations) – all because of this corrupt ideology.

    It says that everyone condemns them and hates their actions – both non-Muslims and believers. And no one supports their actions except those like them and those on the same methodology. He goes on to say that such people isolate themselves from mainstream muslims and scholars and develop their own warped ideas and that the youth should stay away from them.Remember that this is again being addressed to the local Saudi population. Not ot mention the various edicts even before 2001 condemning OBL and his actions.



    What we need to understand here is that the two most important issues on which there should be NO comprimise for internal security i.e. sucide bombings and killing of civilians indiscriminately should be throroughly condemned and recognised as such by the Muslim community at large. And Islamic scholars from all schools of thoughts are coming forward and in their own way spreading this message. And this should be appreciated. Afterall , what we want is the Muslim community to take ownership of this issue recognise that there are fringe muslim groups exploiting this in the name of Islam and isolate them.


    While Salafis have some regressive attitudes on women issues like wearing Niqabs (although there are some important Salafi scholars that do disagree), they do support the ban on triple talaqs or talaq over the net, sms e.t.c (Cleric calls for ban on net talaq - Times Of India)

    What is the main concern is that there should be no support for acts of terrorism by any group in any shape or form. And in this respect, all schools of thoughts, Shia, sunni, deobanid, barelvi and the much maligned Salafi/Ahle-Hadith have all joined together on the one common platform to jointly tell Indian Muslims (and Indians at large indirectly) that there is no justification for such acts of terrorism. And you can add even international scholars like Saudi scholars to that list who have consistenly come out to declare that there is NO justification for killing civilians.

    Particularly post Mumbai attacks, a lot of solidarity was built up with Arab Islamic scholars to publicly condemn and spread the message that Pakistani style attacks are just not acceptable in Islam.

    Just FYI
    ___________________________________________________
    Arab scholars condemn 26/11 attacks, support India - Times Of India
    MUMBAI: Islamic scholars and clergymen, mainly from the Arab world, on Sunday supported India's fight against terrorism asserting that people who engage in barbaric acts like terrorism have no place in Islam.

    At a seminar, Unity, Love and Tolerance organized by Sahyog Cultural Society under the guidance by Fatimi International Organization, the experts condemned last years Mumbai terror attacks.

    Dr. Mohammed Shahumi, who is an advisor to Col Muammar Gaddafi of Libya, said that terrorism needs to be condemned in all forms.

    "We have to tackle terrorism in the strictest manner," Dr Shahumi said. What we have seen in Mumbai last November is actually a crime against humanity and todays world order would never tolerate it, he said.

    Chairman, Sahyog Cultural Society, Sami Bubere said," In the Holy Koran, God begins to deal with the issue of terrorism by teaching Muslims never to become terrorists in the first place. Two of the very first verses of our Holy Book say that in the sight of Allah, persecution, or making people constantly fear for their lives, is much worse than killing."

    "And also, There shall be no compulsion in religion, that is to say, that no one has the right to force others into complying with their demands or compelling others to follow their line of thinking," he said.

    Besides Dr Shahumi, others who delivered lectures at the seminar include - Mohammed Refaat (President, Muhib Ahle Bait Association and General Secretary of Socialist Wifaaq Party, Egypt), Abdullah Hafizi (General Secretary, Al Adarisa International Association, Morocco), Mustafa bin Yusuf (Professor Morocco University), IAS Al Mufti (Vice President, Al Hashmi League, Jordon) and Khadija Al Sibahi (Women Leader of Al Ashraf's Adarisa).

    "The incident of Mumbai shows the world the dangers of terrorism. We have to condemn terrorism in all forms. Islam does not tolerate terrorism," Rafaat said.

    -------------------------------------------
    Muslim scholars support India's fight against terror | TwoCircles.net
    IANS

    Mumbai: Religious scholars and political experts from several Muslim and Arab countries Sunday endorsed India's fight against terrorism as they participated in a seminar held at the Taj hotel, the scene of last year's brutal terror attacks.

    "The world has seen terrorism in various forms at different places, which emanated from various quarters. Terrorism has to be dealt with in the most strictest manner. It has no place in Islam and the world," Mohammed Shahumi, advisor to Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi, told the audience that terrorism cannot be tolerated.

    He was addressing the seminar on 'Unity, Love & Tolerance', organised by Sahyog Cultural Society and Fatimi International Organisation.

    This is the second year in succession that Shahumi addressed the seminar, which coincided with the birth anniversary of Sayyada Fatima Zahra, the daughter of Prophet Mohammed. The first edition of the meet last year was also held at the same venue.

    "We totally stand by India in its efforts to combat terrorism," he told participatns who came from around the globe.

    Abdullah Hafizi, general secretary of Morocco-based Al Adarisa International Association, said: "Prophet Mohammed came in this world for peace, and Islam in no way teaches terrorism."

    According to Sami Bubere, president of Sahyog Cultural Society: "In the holy Quran, god teaches Muslims never to become terrorists in the first place. Two of the very first verses of our Holy Book say: 'Al-Fitnatu ashad-du minal qatl' - meaning that in the sight of allah, 'persecution, or making people constantly fear for their lives, is much worse than killing'. And also: 'L' ikr'ha fid-d'n' - 'There shall be no compulsion in religion', that is to say, that no one has the right to force others into complying with their demands or compelling others to follow their line of thinking."

    Mohammed Refaat, president of Egypt's Muhib Ahle Bait Association and general secretary of the Socialist Wifaaq Party, pointed out: "Allah almighty warns the believers again and again that they should never abandon Him, the source of all goodness. Allah almighty reminds us that it is those who have abandoned Him and thrown away all good, and divested themselves of every shred of human decency, that are the ones who will eventually resort to terrorising others, forcing them into complying with their demands. The believers are repeatedly reminded that they would lose allah almighty's love and His favours if they ever began to behave in that way."

    Mustafa bin Yusuf of Morocco University said: "It is our belief that not only Islam, but no true religion, whatever its name, can sanction violence and bloodshed of innocent men, women and children in the name of allah almighty.

    "Terrorists may use religious or political labels, but no one should be deceived by their wily ways and treacherous guiles. They have nothing to do with religion. They are the enemies of peace. They must be combated at every level as advocated by Islam, the religion of peace."

    Besides, there were other speakers from Britain, Belgium, Indonesia, Iraq, the UAE, and delegates from 50 Muslim countries at the seminar.

    Hotel Taj Mahal Palace & Tower was one of the places attacked by the terroists on the night of Nov 26. More than 270 people were killed in the attack.
     
  10. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Total frauds.

    They spread their foolish fundamentalist Wahhabism around the world via Pakistan and they pretend to be holier than thou!

    They have ruined the good name of Islam!

    These idiots have the audacity to claim the other Muslim sects, including Sunnis, are deviates!
     
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  11. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Have been contacted by a Pakistani acquaintance and informed that Ahle-Hadees mainstream in Pakistan actually held a public anti JuD and LeT rally in Islamabad shouting slogans against Hafiz Saeed.



    Watch the video above and you can see slogans in Islambad roads saying LeT murdabad and JuD murdabad. So I think this again is conclusive proof that even mainstream Ahle Hadees/Salafi groups INSIDE Pakistan condemnd JuD and LeT openly.

    The main grouse is against the agencies and groups like LeT and JuD that have maligned Islam and their school of thought as well.

    In the long term, what we should be doing is joine hands with ALL school of thoughts that condemn terrorism. If leaders and scholars of this school of thught around the world in India, Saudi as well as Pakistan are openly condemning terrorism as well as groups like LeT and JuD and Hafiz Saeed himself directly as well as declare that the Jihad in Kashmir is NOT applicable INSIDE Pakistan, then why not at least appreciate it?

    They are certainly doing this in the face of a militant JuD supported by the PA/ISI that is taking over their mosques and madrassas. The anger is very palpable in the video.


    Criticalppp which is a progressive website of PPP supporters as well as others have actually published a discussion that I did on the ideology in Islam that promotes terrorism and the real root cause is not the Wahabbi/salafi school of thought buy the political Islamist ideology also know as the Qutubist ideology.

    As Sun Tzu said, knowing the enemy is the most important aspect of defeating the enemy. If you don't know the enemy then you can't defeat it. The point is to clear up the mystery about the Salafi/Ahle-Hadees school of thought and tackle it to its bare bones.

    Do read
    Ahl-e-Hadith Muslims reject Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD) | LUBP
    In defense of our Salafi (Ahl-e-Hadith) brothers and sisters | LUBP
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  12. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Have been contacted by a Pakistani acquaintance and informed that Ahle-Hadees mainstream in Pakistan actually held a public anti JuD and LeT rally in Islamabad shouting slogans against Hafiz Saeed.



    Watch the video above and you can see slogans in Islambad roads saying LeT murdabad and JuD murdabad. So I think this again is conclusive proof that even mainstream Ahle Hadees/Salafi groups INSIDE Pakistan condemnd JuD and LeT openly.

    The main grouse is against the agencies and groups like LeT and JuD that have maligned Islam and their school of thought as well.

    In the long term, what we should be doing is joine hands with ALL school of thoughts that condemn terrorism. If leaders and scholars of this school of thught around the world in India, Saudi as well as Pakistan are openly condemning terrorism as well as groups like LeT and JuD and Hafiz Saeed himself directly as well as declare that the Jihad in Kashmir is NOT applicable INSIDE Pakistan, then why not at least appreciate it?

    They are certainly doing this in the face of a militant JuD supported by the PA/ISI that is taking over their mosques and madrassas. The anger is very palpable in the video.


    Criticalppp which is a progressive website of PPP supporters as well as others have actually published a discussion that I did on the ideology in Islam that promotes terrorism and the real root cause is not the Wahabbi/salafi school of thought buy the political Islamist ideology also know as the Qutubist ideology.

    As Sun Tzu said, knowing the enemy is the most important aspect of defeating the enemy. If you don't know the enemy then you can't defeat it. The point is to clear up the mystery about the Salafi/Ahle-Hadees school of thought and tackle it to its bare bones.

    Do read
    Ahl-e-Hadith Muslims reject Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD) | LUBP
    In defense of our Salafi (Ahl-e-Hadith) brothers and sisters | LUBP
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  13. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Sir as far as i am concerned- burqua, having four wives legally and other non sense are all Polished form of slavery. now tell me whether these things are justified by them or not in the name of religion?

    And i agree with you that the society and religion should different-but thats just utopian pipe dream. Come on. No society actually seperates itself from religion. every aspect of the society is interlinked in a intricate deadly manner with religion. Even the more advanced western society societies does not seem to do so. And you know the society India. they do not seperate religion and their lives. Even now they justify the medieval practices under the name of religion. Of course as long as some belief does not harm the society, its not wrong, but when it does we need to throw away that rather than irrationally justifying them just because it is given in tradition or religion.
     
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  14. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    @ejazr.

    Dont take it wrongly Sir but there are nut cases in the name of religion in India.

    Infact, when OBL was killed, they held a big prayer in his name in Chennai(among other places), in the area i was living at that time. Now tell me how does that make them appear to us? And what will an average non-muslim think about that? and you should have seen the reaction of the "Scholars" to that in TN. there were a few sane ones who were against it, but there were ones who actually supported it:frusty:. this is what i am talking about. Instead of making some statements like this, they have to actually work to bring about some real change in the society.

    But as i said, i take it as a first step.
     

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