Sweden into 5th generation fighter market?

Discussion in 'Military Aviation' started by Tshering22, Dec 30, 2010.

  1. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    4,404
    Likes Received:
    2,783
    Location:
    Gangtok, Sikkim, India
    [​IMG]

    The division of Fluid and Mechatronic Systems, FluMeS at the department of Management and Engineering in Linkoping University, have been rewarded a contract from SAAB and FMV to realise and build a scaled demonstrator of a generic fighter concept.

    The concept constitutes a goal and common study object for the defence long term research and development strategy within aeronautics. The concept is a common development between SAAB and FOI with focus on stealth capability, internal load bays and “super cruise” capability.

    The goal of the demonstrator is to:

    Show a cost effective way, with short lead time, to design and manufacture a flying demonstrator of a concept
    Evaluate the usage of scaled demonstrator as a tool for aircraft development, including as “flying wind tunnel”
    The demonstrator is in 13% scale and is jet powered. Its characteristics are the following:

    Length 2,4 m
    Wing span 1,5 m
    Take off weight 15 kg
    Thrust 160 N

    Maiden flight took place in November 2009 and was a success. During the winter the demonstrator is equipped with flight test equipment in order to prepare the coming flight campaign, planed under the spring/summer 2010. This work is the result of a project realised within the framework of NFFP4, Swedish National Aeronautics Research Programme.





    http://www.iei.liu.se/flumes/aero/gff?l=en
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  2.  
  3. sandeepdg

    sandeepdg Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,333
    Likes Received:
    216
    Location:
    Gurgaon/Noida
    Nice development from Sweden !! Another cutting edge technological achievement from the tech powerhouse of Europe !! I think with the success of their scale model, they are very much in to the game of having a stealth fighter prototype launch in another 7-8 years, and a full scale model by 2020.
     
  4. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Messages:
    5,711
    Likes Received:
    723
    Location:
    Bihar, BanGalore , India
    I dont think it will fit into role of 5th generation fighter . Its very small and will not be very effective as a plane as ammo carried will be very less comapred to normal plane . but it will be very useful for small scale operation or may be it can do job of a UAV in better manner .
     
  5. sandeepdg

    sandeepdg Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,333
    Likes Received:
    216
    Location:
    Gurgaon/Noida
    Dude, this is not the fighter itself, are you nuts ? This is a small scale model of the actual fighter under development. Go through the video properly.
     
  6. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Messages:
    5,711
    Likes Received:
    723
    Location:
    Bihar, BanGalore , India
    Know it respected sir and I am not nuts . I knew about it much before this thread was posted . I was talking about this prototype not the actual plane that will be about 6-7 times of the prototype as its of 13 % scale . also what has stopped them to create a plane of actual size than creating something of 13 % scale to the original.

    * I would request you to stop taking things seriously and react as if someone was personal to you . Take a chill pill .
     
  7. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,623
    Likes Received:
    28,459
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    Gripen`s future..

    ............................
     
  8. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    4,404
    Likes Received:
    2,783
    Location:
    Gangtok, Sikkim, India
    This fighter has potential and I don't think that it will be so light as you think. With the NG series, SAAB has now increased its dimensions for more fuel, more payload and more range. This means naturally the overall weight would be also increased. Gripen is rapidly evolving into a medium class fighter and I think it will fully become so when this version of Gripen is finally made.

    Although in one of the other threads, there was a report about ADA or someone incharge of the AMCA was in talks with SAAB. From what I can deduce in that article, I think that AMCA will have a small under the table cooperation with Sweden as well. Sweden fits the bill fine as long as they get their share:

    - A neutral country politically
    - Low profile and peaceful
    - Good relations with India

    I have a feeling that SAAB is being roped in to speed up the AMCA project since ADA knows that our own bureaucracy will never get AMCA in time (~2022-25), while J-20 is already in testing phase. By optimistic estimates, we will need at least 3-4 years of testing of each component on AMCA which means it should be test-ready by 2017-18 at least--- something which ADA/HAL will not be able to do on its own, despite experience gained in Tejas. Guess that's where SAAB comes in--- expertise and consultancy.

    If one sees the NG version offered in MRCA, it now classifies itself as a "medium combat jet" though just barely but still in the category. It has a better performance than F-16 (Czech record in the recent Red Flag of screwing both F-15 and F-16s of USAF) and the NG can carry hell lot more than C/D versions of Gripen.

    Take a look:

    [​IMG]

    For all the battle we have raged here for who will win MMRCA, don't be shocked in SAAB wins the deal. Technically if we see, there are a lot of factors that favour Gripen.

    1- The only non-American single engine medium jet

    2- Sweden being majority maker (except engines) still gives IAF more autonomy than buying the other possibility of SH.

    3- From above report I mentioned, Sweden might assist us for AMCA though maybe under-the-table so Gripen NG could possibly be in IAF colors

    4- NG is bigger, heavier and carries far more payload than earlier Gripens, hence putting it in medium class; HAL Tejas will still retain its role as Light fighter.

    5- Operationally it is the cheapest (other than MiG-35). Think from IAF POV: the fleet that we all are dreaming of would make IAF double-engine loaded; a humungous cost of maintaining. Gripen NG version would be a medium, versatile, neutral fighter with supercruise, AESA radar, low radar signature, full TOT.

    If Gripen wins, we can have:

    150-200 Tejas, (1 engine)
    200 NGs (1 engine)
    100-150 AMCA (2 engine)
    250-300 FGFA/PAKFA (2 engine)
    272 MKIs (2 engine)

    By full TOT, I meant that Swedish Volvo has made the previous engines (even if US assembled) which means that we can consult them in Kaveri project and also means that we could maybe in case of sanctions use Kaveri instead of GE414 in future. If you look at it, the jet has potential and may turn up to be the winning underdog.
     
  9. sandeepdg

    sandeepdg Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,333
    Likes Received:
    216
    Location:
    Gurgaon/Noida
    Well, you didn't get my drift, again ! Its a standard engineering practice the world over, to build a scale model and test the features before committing to actual full scale prototype, you very well know that. Plus, this is a Linkoping University Fluid and Mechatronic systems engineering project !! You expect university engineering students to build a full-scale 5th generation fighter aircraft in their campus ?? And this contract was awarded by SAAB to the university ! They did a sterling work with the scale model, and I have a gut feeling that the actual aircraft will be as good if not better than all other 5G birds under development or already flying in th world. I have full faith in Swedish engineering which has always been cutting edge. Also, scale model only takes into account the basic airframe of the aircraft, not anything else, which is just enough for flying. The actual aircraft will obviously be a heavy machine with all sorts of equipment.
     
  10. vijay jagannathan

    vijay jagannathan Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2010
    Messages:
    178
    Likes Received:
    10
    wow!!! what professionals! simply fantabulistic. Hats off to the swedish aviation experts.
     
  11. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    4,404
    Likes Received:
    2,783
    Location:
    Gangtok, Sikkim, India
    ^^^ We could seriously consider their clandestine cooperation in our AMCA simply to expedite the project. In fact, it would be excellent if SAAB joins hands with ADA to get involved in this. In this way, SAAB will get a big buyer and co-investor, and at the same time will be able to induct the same for its own future air force as well as third party friendly countries all while improving our name as well in the international arms market. Let's see some of the key export countries that Sweden has exported Gripen series to:

    -Czech Republic: A good friend of India since Soviet days and hence a possible and safe export market for a JV AMCA

    -South Africa: Another emerging country and a strong friend of India's since decades.

    -Brazil: A fellow emerging BRIC nation and a potential buyer of Gripen series. No political tensions, increasing trade and cooperation and friendship. An Indo-Swedish AMCA could be just perfect for them.

    -Thailand: A friendly country to India, progressive country, common culture and faith and zero political tensions. A prospective partner for Indo-Swedish axis.

    -Romania: Again a Soviet era friend of India's; might not see the need for a 5G jet but who knows what changes with time and situation tomorrow? :)

    If SAAB and HAL join hands, a lot of good things can come up for our slow and laggard projects.
     
  12. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Messages:
    5,711
    Likes Received:
    723
    Location:
    Bihar, BanGalore , India
    I have no doubt about capability of swedish engineers. They did a fantastic job while developing Gripen and SAAB is already consultants of many projects of Indian defence . I think they are already assisting with Landing gear of Naval LCA . Swedish are neutral politicall and that will be really a great advantage as their main aim will be business while dealing with us and their dealings will be transparent compared to other blocks. I honestly think they will be best partners for AMCA project . But I also think they will not be very helpful in Kaveri project . They have not developed engines for even Gripen and are using American engines. I think best hope for Kaveri will be french as they are already involved with the project . EU and USA will be more intrested in pushing their own engines instead of helping us with Kaveri .

    Regarding 5th generation project of SAAB I have some serious doubt. first of all its just a small project by college students and till now none of major project was based on a prototype which is 13 % to the scale of original planned plane. Performance of small plane body will be much more different and I would be glad to see a prototype of actual size instead of a miniature one.
    Regarding various sub systems of the plane SAAB will again be dependent on USA and EU . Like Engines and Avionics I doubt if Sweden have money to invest on all those and would prefer to buy them from other vendors . Same thing goes for Gripen as
    well because most of systems are from USA . USA forced Israel to withdraw Electronics warfare suite from Gripen that was offered to us . SO Buying plane directly from Sweden is almost like buying plane from USA . But a JV or consultation with SAAB is best option that we should be looking into .
     
  13. Godless-Kafir

    Godless-Kafir DFI Buddha Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    5,829
    Likes Received:
    1,799
    Sweden is a Liar, they are not a nuteral country and Wikeleeks proves it on how they support NATO. Its the sickest liar around, i hate that shity country and their stupid aeroplains becoz i hate hypocrites.
     
  14. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    4,404
    Likes Received:
    2,783
    Location:
    Gangtok, Sikkim, India
    You make no sense. Sweden is neutral in the sense that it doesn't have to commit itself politically to what US does; Neither Swedish troops are serving in Afghanistan and nor can US pressure them to do so any time. According to your "black and white" logic Switzerland also then can be said as a US lackey even though the entire world recognizes them as fiercely neutral. Supporting intellectually a country doesn't account for loss of neutrality man. Switzerland is heftily NATO/EU backing in general terms and only becomes neutral in conflict or war time.

    Sweden is a neutral country when it comes to choosing a side in war. It is something they and Finland were habituated to adopt since Cold War since joining NATO would mean pissing of a neighbouring USSR, and since they were not communist states, joining USSR was out of question. So they extended their neutrality policy to wartime situations. That is what we need when we buy something from a supplier; a supplier that doesn't meddle in our business.

    In MRCA, the only 2 suppliers who have such a reputation are Sweden and France (other than obviously Russia). I don't think I need to explain each supplier's situation to you as it has been discussed to death. And could you explain what do you mean by "shitty planes"? Because unless and until you have some proof to prove Gripens as useless, they are quite lethal fighters not according to Swedish claims but the claims of her customer nations. It is a single engine version of Typhoon if capabilities have to be assessed and in less than half of the cost. That in technical, economical and industrial dictionary is a pretty mean feat that the Swedes have achieved. Not even USA has achieved such a milestone even with their F-16s. Hence you will notice a slight bitterness between Swedes and Americans when they discuss about fighter jets. Lockheed Martin has been unable to press Sweden into not supplying Gripen to other nations (any) for their own F-16s to succeed-- hence they go for their NATO puppets and force them to buy F-16s instead of Gripens.

    Czech Republic is the only NATO country that broke the norm and decided to go the SAAB way. And boy did they prove its capabilities! In early part of last decade, Swedish air force went 1 on 1 in Red Flag with USAF's jets. All were thrashed black and blue when SAF won 10 out of 10 air battles with their Gripens against F-15s and F-16s.

    Everyone is a hypocrite in world politics if you didn't know that. We were "neutral" too in NAM once remember? But you also remember that we had the "Soviet tilt". Does that ring a bell? Same goes for all other countries. In the end, it is all national interests for every country. USA calls itself the torch-bearer of democracy while it has the most radical theocracies and fundamentalist states as its staunch allies throughout. What does that look to you?

    Politics and military aptitude are 2 different things that you must understand to differentiate. Never mix the two if you want to be a powerful, successful country in this century.
     
  15. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,623
    Likes Received:
    28,459
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    mp.net
    ..................
     
  16. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,623
    Likes Received:
    28,459
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    ......................................................................................................
     
  17. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,623
    Likes Received:
    28,459
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    .........................................................................
     
  18. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    4,957
    Likes Received:
    613
    it is like a mini version of J20
     
  19. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,623
    Likes Received:
    28,459
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    As its said, Non-Gripen user too can also join the program..
    I am sure Indian official did raise their eyebrows, After all more brains are good for project..

    As for China, It have to relay on Russian technology to archive success..
    J20 is good achievement and world ( West & east ) respect it..
    But u need to work more harder and need to be self-reliant in terms of know-how..
     
  20. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    4,957
    Likes Received:
    613
    time will tell who on earth need be self-reliant in terms of know-how.......

    Russians are now anxious whether J20 will take market share of T50.

    BTW,Sweden volvo now has been taken over by Chinese Geely
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2011
  21. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,623
    Likes Received:
    28,459
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    j20

    ...............................................
     

Share This Page